It's an interesting question. Suppose there was a religious group that just called themselves "Christians". If they publicly announced that a former members was no longer a Christian, would that be slander? Many, especially non "Christian" Christians, would view it that way. They would also likely be offended by the claim that you must be a "Christian" to be a Christian. I think the "Christian" cult would be wise to change the wording of their announcement.
Posts by DT
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My JWN Anniversary
by cameo-d ini noticed the jwn time clock is actually a few days ahead of schedule.
anyway, it has rolled over to show that this is my 12 month mark.. i know that a few people here read and enjoy my posts.. but i have also noticed that very few people seem interested in participating in discussion of my subject matter.. just thought i would post this and see what you all might have to say about my time here.. .
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DT
Happy anniversary! I enjoy your posts, although I don't always know what to say about them. I usually tuck the information away in the back of my mind, waiting for additional information or a better context in order to evaluate it. Then you make another post and start the process all over again.
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How about a community blog?
by DT ina community blog could never replace a discussion forum like this one and shouldn't have that as a goal, but a blog could fill some important needs and even have some advantages over a traditional discussion forum.. it would be similar in that it would contain posts that could be commented on.
the navigation would be different.
it would also have limitations on who could post articles.
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DT
I've made some improvements to the blog. There are several new posts. I also have a news feed and feeds to JWN, Freeminds Bloggers and Videos About Jehovah's Witnesses. I will also be placing feeds to the blog from several other blogs to increase its exposure. Let me know if you have any other suggestions.
If you would like to support this new site, please consider becoming a contributor, follower or subscriber. Comments and links to the site are also greatly appreciated.
After I make some more improvements, I'll start a new post with details about the site.
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Was Jerusalem REALLY desolate for 70 years??? Take a quick look......
by Lady Liberty incheck out jeremiah 52:30 in the new world translation, it says:29 in the eighteenth year of nebuchadrez zar, from jerusalem there were eight hundred and thirty-two souls.30 in the twenty-third year of nebuchadrez zar, nebu zarad an the chief of the bodyguard took jews into exile, seven hundred and forty-five souls.all the souls were four thousand and six hundred.
what this shows is the societys teaching that jerusalem was desolate, is not supported by scripture.
it was not literal.. it was in nebuchadnezzars 18th reignal year that he burned down jerusalem.
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DT
"It only mentions Jews being brought into exile. They could be from anywhere in Israel."
When I was a dub, I thought the whole nation was supposed to be desolate for 70 years. Maybe that wasn't the official teaching, but that is how I understood it and other dubs also mentioned that.
I understand the archaeological evidence clearly shows that the nation was continuously inhabited during that time.
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Is punishing someone for changing their religion against international law
by ldrnomo ini saw this on wikipedia:.
the united nations commission on human rights, considers the recanting of a person's religion a human right legally protected by the international covenant on civil and political rights: "the committee observes that the freedom to 'have or to adopt' a religion or belief necessarily entails the freedom to choose a religion or belief, including the right to replace one's current religion or belief with another or to adopt atheistic views [...] article 18.2 bars coercion that would impair the right to have or adopt a religion or belief, including the use of threat of physical force or penal sanctions to compel believers or non-believers to adhere to their religious beliefs and congregations, to recant their religion or belief or to convert."[5].
seems to me that being shunned by family and friends for quitting jehovah's witnesses would be penal sanctions.. .
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DT
"Turan's response: (Keep in mind his first language is Turkish) I agree with you. There are two issues. First, (as you point out) most of human rights documents are about securing individual rights vis-a-vis to state and its agencies."
I'm not sure if that applies to this case. Here is a quote from article 2 of that covenant. "Each State Party to the present Covenant undertakes to respect and to ensure to all individuals within its territory and subject to its jurisdiction the rights recognized in the present Covenant,"
If I understand this correctly, the country must not only respect these rights (by not violating them). They must also ensure these rights. It sounds to me like they have to take steps to insure that others within that country also don't violate them. It also says in article 2, "Where not already provided for by existing legislative or other measures, each State Party to the present Covenant undertakes to take the necessary steps. in accordance with its constitutional processes and with the provisions of the present Covenant, to adopt such legislative or other measures as may be necessary to give effect to the rights recognized in the present Covenant."
Once again it sounds like they have to ensure these rights, not just refrain from violating them. It also says, "Each State Party to the present Covenant undertakes: To ensure that any person whose rights or freedoms as herein recognized are violated shall have an effective remedy, notwithstanding that the violation has been committed by persons acting in an official capacity"
It sounds like it applies to everyone, not just those acting in an official capacity. That is listed as a possibility, but
there is nothing to indicate that is the only situation that applies. I'm not a lawyer and I know that legal terms can differ
from how they are commonly used, but I have a hard time seeing that this covenant only applies to human rights violations that are actually caused by the government."When it says "coercion" it means the coercion used by state agencies (the only legitimate agency to use coercion)."
I don't understand what he means by this. Is there anything in the covenant to indicate this? In the United States, coercion can also refer to the actions of those not representing the government.
"Second, looking at one right and taking a right to its logical extremes is not acceptable. Rights in international human rights are indivisible; they are balanced with each other."
I agree and that is where it becomes tricky. The question should be asked of what are the limits of the Watchtower Society's rights when they conflict with other human rights. I have no problem with individuals exercising their right to choose who to associate with. I do have a problem with a large corporation using threats and intimidation to interfere with an individual's right to freely exercise the religion of his choice. I don't know of any court case where this issue was properly explored. I'm not convinced that a reasonable court would favor the corporation over the individual.
"Having said that, I think few people will interpret the citation like your friend and taking it to its logical exteremes to claim that my family and friends are committing a legally identifiable crime by not communicating with me."
I agree. It would be absurd to interpret it that way. However, I believe the situation is different for an organization that uses enforced shunning as a control technique and a way to prevent people from exercising their freedom of religion.
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How about a community blog?
by DT ina community blog could never replace a discussion forum like this one and shouldn't have that as a goal, but a blog could fill some important needs and even have some advantages over a traditional discussion forum.. it would be similar in that it would contain posts that could be commented on.
the navigation would be different.
it would also have limitations on who could post articles.
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DT
I posted this almost a year ago when the future of JWN was uncertain. I finally followed through with this idea. Here's the blog http://jehovahswitnessesblog.blogspot.com/
This was partially in response to this thread http://www.jehovahs-witness.net/jw/friends/179208/1/Major-anti-cult-campaign-in-autumn-Post-here-if-interested
Please PM me if you are interested in becoming a contributer. I will be starting a new topic soon with additional details.
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Major anti-cult campaign in autumn? Post here if interested
by rebel8 inso we already have this thread which has separate actions for next month: http://www.jehovahs-witness.net/jw/friends/179142/2/make-august-2009-the-dawn-of-the-mass-exodus-the-beginning-of-the-end-of-the-watchtower-org.
i don't intend to discourage anyone from participating in that.
those actions are meant to educate current jws (help people leave).
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DT
I just started a community blog. http://jehovahswitnessesblog.blogspot.com/ Please PM me if you want to become a contributer. This is a little easier than starting your own blog. People who already have a site or blog are also invited. They can use this to promote their existing site.
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Make August 2009 the dawn of the "mass exodus"...the beginning of the end of the Watchtower org!
by koolaid-man inthe watchtower organization is without doubt doing everything they can to keep their business afloat.
they are at a critical point in their ever so blemished present condition.
there is simply too much genuine criticism from not only those on the outside but, also from those on the inside.
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DT
There are some good ideas on this thread.
I would like to suggest starting some blogs. If you write letters and get responses, then you can post it on the blog for everyone to see. Starting a blog is not very difficult at all, especially if you use a platform like Blogger.com. If the blogs link to other critical sites, then it can really improve their traffic and search engine ratings. This works well with any campaign to write letters to the media because they will find better information when they do their research.
I'm willing to provide help if anyone needs assistance getting set up. Just PM me. I'm also willing to consider the idea of a community blog with several authors, if others are interested.
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Is punishing someone for changing their religion against international law
by ldrnomo ini saw this on wikipedia:.
the united nations commission on human rights, considers the recanting of a person's religion a human right legally protected by the international covenant on civil and political rights: "the committee observes that the freedom to 'have or to adopt' a religion or belief necessarily entails the freedom to choose a religion or belief, including the right to replace one's current religion or belief with another or to adopt atheistic views [...] article 18.2 bars coercion that would impair the right to have or adopt a religion or belief, including the use of threat of physical force or penal sanctions to compel believers or non-believers to adhere to their religious beliefs and congregations, to recant their religion or belief or to convert."[5].
seems to me that being shunned by family and friends for quitting jehovah's witnesses would be penal sanctions.. .
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DT
I wish Russia would rethink their proposal to ban Jehovah's Witnesses. They would probably have more success if they applied these human rights standards to allow former members to sue the Watchtower Society for human rights violations. Instead of appearing as a bully picking on a religious minority, they could be praised for sticking up for basic human liberties. Other countries would likely follow and the Watchtower Society would regret the day they ever messed with Russia.
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Something that can be said to JW's at the door
by DT inimagine this conversation.. witness: so would you enjoy reading this book which explains the bible based hope for everlasting life on a paradise earth?.
householder: yes, i would love to read that.
it sounds fascinating.
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DT
Reniaa,
Thanks. This is very welcome information. (I can't say why yet.) Actually, I was just at Watchtower.org, but failed to notice that they have one of their books available digitally. This is a positive step. It will open up their publications to greater scrutiny and make it easier to demonstrate what Jehovah's Witnesses actually believe. I doubt that they will do the same with their private edition Watchtowers, but I'd be happy if I'm wrong. I know they have audio recordings, but you can't copy and paste and provide commentary.
By the way, how do you pronounce your name? I'm just curious.