Posts by DT

59

I Called the Headquarters About the "Slaughter of Apostates" Quote

by DT in

jw
friends

in case you haven't heard, the november 15, 2011 watchtower, page 5 made this comment.

"today, no servant of jehovah uses physical force against opponents of pureworship.

"vengeance is mine," god says.

DT

Alleymom, I received your PM and acted on it. Thank you.

59

I Called the Headquarters About the "Slaughter of Apostates" Quote

by DT in

jw
friends

in case you haven't heard, the november 15, 2011 watchtower, page 5 made this comment.

"today, no servant of jehovah uses physical force against opponents of pureworship.

"vengeance is mine," god says.

DT

In case you haven't heard, the November 15, 2011 Watchtower, page 5 made this comment.

"Today, no servant of Jehovah uses physical force against opponents of pureworship. "Vengeance is mine," God says. (Heb.10:30) But to rid the congregation of potentially corrupting influences, Christian elders may have to act with courage similar to that of Jehu. (1 Cor. 5:9-13) And all members of the congregation need to be determined to avoid the company of disfellowshipped individuals.- 2 John 9-11." "Jehu announced that he intended to hold "a great sacrifice" for Baal. (2 Ki. 10:18, 19) "This is a clever play onwords on the part of Jehu," says one scholar. While the term employed here "generally means ‘sacrifice,' it is also used of the ‘slaughter' of apostates." "It is true that Jehu spilled much blood. Yet, the Scriptures present him as a courageous man..."

Many of us were wondering who this scholar is who speaks about a "slaughter of apostates". As is common, The Watchtower doesn't provide the source of the quote.

I did a Google search and couldn't find any reference to that quote (except for results discussing that Watchtower article). Therefore, I decided to call the headquarters and ask them. It took a while to get transferred to the right department. I asked about the source and was given a very prompt answer. I expect that either this question was expected or he was able to look up the article on his computer and find the extra information about the article and its sources.

The quote comes from the "Word Biblical Commentary" for 2 Kings on page 129. It was published in 1985 and written by T.R. Hobbs. I believe this page has the correct description of the book.

I requested that book through interlibrary loan. I will share the context of that quote when it arrives. However, if anybody has access to that book, we might get some answers even sooner.

26

Should There be a Petition Asking the Watchtower Society to Retract its "Mentally Diseased" Statements?

by DT in

jw
friends

of course, i would be very surprised if the watchtower society ever retracted or apologised for anything.

still, it could gain a lot of publicity and put pressure on them to curb their hate speech.

if they refuse to apologise, it could demonstrate that those statements were intentional and not just a slip of the printing press.

DT

Here are some quotes that could be included. I don't have access to the original article, so there may be more that could be used.

"Suppose that a doctor told you to avoid contact with someone who is infected with a contagious, deadly disease,"

"You would know what the doctor means, and you would strictly heed his warning. Well, apostates are 'mentally diseased', and they seek to infect others with their disloyal teachings."

"Jehovah, the Great Physician, tells us to avoid contact with them. We know what he means, but are we determined to heed his warning in all respects? What is involved in avoiding false teachers? We do not receive them into our homes or greet them. We also refuse to read their literature, watch television programmes that feature them, examine their websites, or add our comments to their blogs."

26

Should There be a Petition Asking the Watchtower Society to Retract its "Mentally Diseased" Statements?

by DT in

jw
friends

of course, i would be very surprised if the watchtower society ever retracted or apologised for anything.

still, it could gain a lot of publicity and put pressure on them to curb their hate speech.

if they refuse to apologise, it could demonstrate that those statements were intentional and not just a slip of the printing press.

DT

Of course, I would be very surprised if the Watchtower Society ever retracted or apologised for anything. Still, it could gain a lot of publicity and put pressure on them to curb their hate speech. If they refuse to apologise, it could demonstrate that those statements were intentional and not just a slip of the printing press. It might even have some relevance to developing cases that are investigating whether they broke the law with their hate speech.

I wrote a rough draft. I welcome your comments. I thought it might be better to focus on the effect on those with real mental illnesses rather than make it sound like it's just payback for trying to intimidate a group of exmembers.

The signers of this petition object to statements in the July 15 Watchtower (study edition) that imply that mental disease is contagious, that mentally diseased people should be shunned, and that mental disease is caused by, or is the same as, disagreeing with a set of religious teachings.

We also think it was unwise for you to use the term "mentally diseased". It is often viewed as equivalent to mental illness, but implies that it is contagious (even without implying this directly, as in that article) and is an unnecessary insult to people who suffer from mental illness regardless of their system of belief (or unbelief). We also disapprove of how the article made no attempt to clarify these points, and instead used this term as a hateful slur towards a group who wishes to exercise their own rights of conscience and religious expression in peace, without harassment.

In particular, we take exception to the following statements:

We will need to discuss what to include.

We view the above statements as misleading and highly insulting. We are especially concerned that they may be taken seriously by some with inadequate education or excess zeal and may result in discrimination or other unlawful acts.

We request the following:

A retraction and apology should be printed in a future study edition of the Watchtower magazine. The statement should clearly state that mental illness is not contagious. It should state that mental illness is not a valid reason to shun someone. It should state that mental illness is not the same or caused by disagreeing with a set of religious beliefs. It should state that using the term "mentally diseased" could be offensive to those with a real mental illness and could be illegal hate speech when used against a minority in some contexts and countries, especially if the intent or context results in intimidation or the inciting to hatred or discrimination.

Since the original offending article was studied in public meetings around the world in a question and answer format by millions of people, we request that your apology and retraction receive the same treatment. The statement should appear in a study article with at least one question directed to the statement, so that those in attendance can comment on it.

This is a chance for you to undo some of the damage you have done. Your response will reveal to the world your attitudes about discrimination and basic human rights.

It may even help you to avoid legal problems that may result from that article.

7

HATE PROPAGANDA LAWS IN CANADA

by somebody in

i know that canada has hate propaganda laws and the wts' publishings should probably be exposed there too.

so if anyone can, please help expose the wt society for what it really is!

maybe there are some lawyers in canada that can shed some light on if watchtower publishings such as the the july 15th watchtower and perhaps that km a few years back fit the bill for religious "hate propaganda".

DT

talesin,

Nice find. I think it's worth a shot. They are definitely promoting discrimination and an irrational fear based on the concept that that being "mentally diseased" is a contagious condition. The law doesn't seem to require that the person actually have a disease or illness. Just promoting an irrational fear is enough. Of course, the case may be even stronger for an apostate that has a real mental illness. In this case the Watchtower Society would be calling him mentally diseased and actively promoting discrimination and an irrational fear based on his condition.

There may also be some witnesses who will avoid or even shun other witnesses with real mental illnesses. Most witnesses in Canada probably have enough education to know that mental illnesses aren't contagious, but some might not and may overreact to Watchtower rhetoric that implies that mental illnesses are contagious. Also, the Watchtower has suggested that some cases of mental illness are caused by demons and hinted that this could be contagious.

In any case, it's an important topic. I wonder if it would be helpful to have a petition asking the Watchtower Society to make a statement in all three editions of the Watchtower retracting it's statements implying that mental illnesses are contagious and to clearly explain that mental illnesses are not contagious.

1

Watching the Watchtower now-a-days is like . . .

by Gayle in

watching a "chicken without a head.

" i mean, it's just crazy stuff everywhere,,crazy in australia, crazy in brazil, crazy in belgium, poland, bulgaria, iceland, menlo park, california, news from england about their crazy remarks about "contagious" "mentally diseased" people.

crazy selling 30+ buildings in brooklyn, jumping to moving to canada, upstate new york, patterson.

DT

It's almost like a soap opera.

69

More apostate hating from the Watchtower

by Igot2bme in

i ran across this post on fb-.

the november 15, 2011 study version of the watchtower, has this to say in an article praising jehu's actions against the family of ahab.

"the prophet elisha sent one of the sons of the prophets to anoint jehu as king and to instruct him to kill every male of the apostate house of ahab.2 ki.

DT

I find it interesting that they don't say who the Bible scholar is who discusses a "slaughter of apostates". They probably took his words out of context. I did a search and it doesn't appear that his comments are on the Internet. I would like to track him down and ask him what he thinks about how the Watchtower Society used his words.

78

Do you sense that the Watchtower will implode?

by AK - Jeff in

since leaving the organization 8 years ago, there have been more significant changes in the actual, physical activities of the organization than occurred in all the 40 plus years i was 'in'.

bethel closings.

bethel layoffs.

DT

They sure seem to be getting desperate. There are problems arising all over the place. If it were real persecution, they might not mind it too much, but it all seems to be coming from bad and stupid things they have done like publishing hate speech, protecting pedophiles and breaking the law.

P.S. Hey that's 666 posts. Does that make me a real apostate?

41