Thank you for your comments. I need to learn more about the Westboro church. The problem may be that most of their statements have been opinion, even if they are highly offensive. Have they been taken to task over saying things that are meant to be statements of fact, but can be proven false?
Posts by DT
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11"Mentally Diseased", Defamation per se, and US Law
by DT inthe watchtower article on "mentally diseased" apostates has caused a lot of commotion and might even be investigated as hate speech in some countries.
the united states has a different political climate and a different approach to balancing individual freedoms against the freedoms of religious organizations.
this makes it unlikely that charges of hate speech would get much traction in the united states, unless things escalate further or result in violence.
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11
"Mentally Diseased", Defamation per se, and US Law
by DT inthe watchtower article on "mentally diseased" apostates has caused a lot of commotion and might even be investigated as hate speech in some countries.
the united states has a different political climate and a different approach to balancing individual freedoms against the freedoms of religious organizations.
this makes it unlikely that charges of hate speech would get much traction in the united states, unless things escalate further or result in violence.
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DT
The Watchtower article on "mentally diseased" apostates has caused a lot of commotion and might even be investigated as hate speech in some countries. The United States has a different political climate and a different approach to balancing individual freedoms against the freedoms of religious organizations. This makes it unlikely that charges of hate speech would get much traction in the United States, unless things escalate further or result in violence.
I was wondering if apostates might have a case for libel in the United States or other countries. The statement that apostates are "mentally diseased" was directed at a specific group of people composed of people that can be personally identified based on either the dictionary definition or by comments made in Watchtower magazines. It can't be defended as factual since most apostates do not have mentel diseases. It is true that they quoted a scripture that contains the term "mentally diseased". However, they made a further statement that apostates are "mentally diseased" that is neither a quote nor something that can be directly concluded from that scripture. It's also significant that they are the ones who put the term "mentally diseased in their own Bible, without a precedent from other translations.
If they said apostates are "spiritually diseased" than it might be a different story as it's a matter of opinion. They could have also said something like we believe apostates fit the description of that scripture. But no, they made a direct, extremely damaging statement that can be proven false.
I think there a lot of countries where this might be a possibility. I welcome your comments and observations.
I wanted to add some more information about the United States. The following quote comes from Wikipedia and acknowledges that it can be harder to prove defamation in the United States. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Defamation
"Defamation law in the United States is much less plaintiff-friendly than its counterparts in European and the Commonwealth countries. In the United States, a comprehensive discussion of what is and is not libel or slander is difficult, because the definition differs between different states, and under federal law. Some states codify what constitutes slander and libel together into the same set of laws. Criminal libel is rare or nonexistent, depending on the state. Defenses to libel that can result in dismissal before trial include the statement being one of opinion rather than fact or being "fair comment and criticism". Truth is always a defense."
However, consider this comment which could be a source of hope.
"Most states recognize that some categories of statements are considered to be defamatory per se, such that people making a defamation claim for these statements do not need to prove that the statement was defamatory"
Another Wikipedia article has this to say. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Defamation_per_se#Defamation_per_se
"All states except Arizona, Arkansas, Missouri, and Tennessee recognize that some categories of false statements are so innately harmful that they are considered to be defamatory per se. In the common law tradition, damages for such false statements are presumed and do not have to be proven. "Statements are defamatory per se where they falsely impute to the plaintiff one or more of the following things":[7]
Allegations or imputations "injurious to another in their trade, business, or profession"
Allegations or imputations "of loathsome disease" (historically leprosy and sexually transmitted disease, now also including mental illness)
Allegations or imputations of "unchastity" (usually only in unmarried people and sometimes only in women)
Allegations or imputations of criminal activity (sometimes only crimes of moral turpitude)"
I'm sorry that I haven't been able to do more research. I just wanted to throw these thoughts out there so we could discuss them. I realize that freedom of religion could still be an important obstacle. However, I don't think that it is insurmountable. (The Watchtower settlements of pedophilia cases is an indication of that.)
I should also point out that several states have criminal defamation laws, so lawsuits aren't the only possibility. Criminal cases might be more practical at first. Private lawsuits could always follow if defamation is proven. My state has a criminal defamation law, so I will do more research and possibly register a complaint.
Disclaimer: I'm not a lawyer. I'm just looking for a helpful discussion of this issue.
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JWs continue to hold NGO Status within the COUNCIL OF EUROPE
by AndersonsInfo inwtbts and jehovah's witnesses continue to hold ngo status within the council of europe.
documents recently declassified by the council of europe confirm that the european association of jehovah's witnesses continues to officially hold ngo status.. .
the six page document dh-dd(2010)61, entitled "communication by an ngo in the case of 97 members of the gldani congregation of jehovah's witnesses and others against georgia (application no.
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DT
I assume that they had to sign some kind of document(s) to become an NGO. Does anybody know what those documents say?
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JWs continue to hold NGO Status within the COUNCIL OF EUROPE
by AndersonsInfo inwtbts and jehovah's witnesses continue to hold ngo status within the council of europe.
documents recently declassified by the council of europe confirm that the european association of jehovah's witnesses continues to officially hold ngo status.. .
the six page document dh-dd(2010)61, entitled "communication by an ngo in the case of 97 members of the gldani congregation of jehovah's witnesses and others against georgia (application no.
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DT
Wow. The council of Europe must have a great library.
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You All Need To Read This New Letter Sent To All Conregations In Victoria Australia About Police Checks For Elders
by Hairyhegoat inpolice minister peter ryan has written a letter to mr unthank advising that jw's are now applying, in mass, for the wwc in victoria.
to little to late.
criminal charges still stand and cannot be backdated!
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DT
It appears that apostates have become the conscience for the Watchtower Society.
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I Called the Headquarters About the "Slaughter of Apostates" Quote
by DT inin case you haven't heard, the november 15, 2011 watchtower, page 5 made this comment.
"today, no servant of jehovah uses physical force against opponents of pureworship.
"vengeance is mine," god says.
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DT
I just hope that he received the email. Since it contained some vile quotes from the Watchtower, I'm a liitle concerned it might have been marked as spam or maybe flagged by homeland security.
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I Called the Headquarters About the "Slaughter of Apostates" Quote
by DT inin case you haven't heard, the november 15, 2011 watchtower, page 5 made this comment.
"today, no servant of jehovah uses physical force against opponents of pureworship.
"vengeance is mine," god says.
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DT
"What I want to know is why they need to use the works of Bible scholars?"
I think they just couldn't resist using a phrase like "slaughter of apostates", but they wanted to be able to say it was a quote in an effort to avoid legal problems. The phrase isn't in the Bible so they had to resort to using a BIble scholar.
I have emailed the author and asked him if he would like to comment on how the Watchtower Society has used his words.
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I Called the Headquarters About the "Slaughter of Apostates" Quote
by DT inin case you haven't heard, the november 15, 2011 watchtower, page 5 made this comment.
"today, no servant of jehovah uses physical force against opponents of pureworship.
"vengeance is mine," god says.
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DT
Isn't it odd that they quoted the work of a scholar without giving him credit? I would think that is a big journalistic faux pas. Could it even be illegal? Maybe they were embarassed to be quoting from a worldly Bible commentary. Have they even listed Bible commentaries as sources in recent years? Weren't Bible commentaries one of the big issues when Ray Franz was on the way out?
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Watchtower Hate Speech and Intimidation Might be a Violation of US Federal Law
by DT inthe united states is more lenient than most countries when it comes to hate speech and allowing organised religions to have their way, even when they hurt others.
however, there are limits.
i found a federal law that seems strangely relevant to recent watchtower articles that labels former members as "mentally diseased" and discuss the "slaughter of apostates".
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DT
Thank you for your comments. Any prosecution of Jehovah's Witnesses in the United Sates could be very difficult. I'm not saying it shouldn't be tried, but I know that I'm not volunteering. However, things could change very quickly. I say it pays to be prepared and consider possible legal strategies before they are needed. It's probably a wast of time to attack Watchtower hate speech in the United States, but if that hate speech incites violence or results in other illegal activity, then the situation might be different. Another possibility is if documents related to the deliberations of the governing body are leaked or a member defects then there might be a basis for prosecution if it can be shown that their actions are intended to deprive their members of their constitional rights.
In any case, if all this thread does is make the Bethel spies a little bit nervous, then I think it's well worth it.
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Should There be a Petition Asking the Watchtower Society to Retract its "Mentally Diseased" Statements?
by DT inof course, i would be very surprised if the watchtower society ever retracted or apologised for anything.
still, it could gain a lot of publicity and put pressure on them to curb their hate speech.
if they refuse to apologise, it could demonstrate that those statements were intentional and not just a slip of the printing press.
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DT
Thank you for all your comments. I agree that it is almost unthinkable that the Watchtower Society would ever print a retraction based on complaints or a petition. That would imply that they have journalistic standards. I think a petition could still be useful to advertise this issue and show how stubborn the Watchtower Society is. It could even be mentioned in the news. There's also a small chance that they could be forced to issue some kind of statement, letter or retraction as the result of legal prosecution in some country. If so, a petition could be seen as a victory, even if it isn't the direct cause of that statement.
I don't know if there is enough interest to make this worthwhile, so I'm primarily interested in hearing people's thoughts on this.