Posts by yourmomma

78

A fair and reasonable question for Jehovah's Witnesses

by Gregor in

your organization has always been intently focused on "witnessing" and this includes going right up to strangers homes, knocking on their door attempting to engage them in a discussion of their beliefs.

you come prepared to point out the error of whatever faith they hold.

doctrines such as immortality of the soul, the trinity and eternal torment in hell you declare as false teachings and can back up your assertions with scriptures and skilled argument.

yourmomma

Response to Gregor: Your illustration gives me flash backs to when I was 15. When I was 15 an elder used almost the exact same illustration about rap music. I made the arguement that not all rap music is bad, he pulled out that illustration, and also one about how much arsenic i wanted in my water. If you know of any religion out there that does not have some brown spots, let me know. The brown spots on the society are serious ones no doubt, but I am not aware of any religion involving humans that doesnt have the brown spots.

Response to moshe: The organ transplant issue is a serious one. So is the blood issue. Human taking the lead have alot to answer for. There is a reason the scriptures bring out that serving is not for everyone because there is extra judgment in store. I believe that the society has alot to answer for. However personally I cannot judge them, that is up to Jehovah. It is possible that these things could cause Jehovah to judge not only the society but everyone in the religion for their mistakes? Yes, however im not there yet. Can I foresee that happening? Yes, and if that day comes I will have to make a decision. I think that the elders response to your issues was cold blooded. It doesnt matter because of the resurection? Sick. I dont want to be in their shoes when Jehovah judges. Im sorry to hear that your wife treated you that way. The blood issue may be one of the biggest ones. I am currently doing very deep research to make sure that if there is an emergency what i will and wont take is clearly listed as to avoid losing precious time. because of the changes in the doctrine in regards to fractions, it is something that I think everyone needs to revisit and research. The bottom line is that each person should do an honest evaluation to make it a matter of prayer to Jehovah and make the best decision they can. Its a very troubling situation, a very valid point has been made and that is, would you entrust your life decisions or that of your family on this when there have been stances in the past that have been changed? Frankly I think if a person comes to the conclusion that they cannot agree with the societies view on blood or are not sure because of the organ transplant change or other changes then they have to do what they have to do. I personally would not tell anyone, however to say that it shouldnt be that way is a valid point. I keep it real, im not in denial like those elders were. I think its important that each person think long and hard about this issue and make a decision they are sure of, and not allow anyone else to tell them what to do. Its between them and Jehovah. The gut wrenching stories on AJWRB are brutal reads. There are by people who were put in impossible situations and I cant judge them. I emphazise with them and hope I am never in that type of situation, and who knows what any of us would do in that situation. Jehovah is going to judge everyone righteously, to me he is a loving god and will fix all of this. Now, do I think that it means that I myself will get judged because of the society's decisions? not at this point. I dont know, I dont think that would be fair, and frankly it reminds me of the kind of Jehovah that the strict witnesses talk about, that its almost to a point where he is just waiting for a reason to kill me. What you portray is a brutal and messed up situation, if my wife or the elders in my hall treated me like they treated you, who knows where I would be. Im sorry they did that to you. It not right. They will pay a price.

78

A fair and reasonable question for Jehovah's Witnesses

by Gregor in

your organization has always been intently focused on "witnessing" and this includes going right up to strangers homes, knocking on their door attempting to engage them in a discussion of their beliefs.

you come prepared to point out the error of whatever faith they hold.

doctrines such as immortality of the soul, the trinity and eternal torment in hell you declare as false teachings and can back up your assertions with scriptures and skilled argument.

yourmomma

Response to BizzyBee: First let me again preface this, I know I have said it before, however i think its important. You are asking me about my own person opinion, I dont mind sharing that, however I want to make clear this my viewpoint. If you disagree with me, i have no problem with that. The reason I say this is because many witnesses bash and judge other peoples beliefs and opinions. There are many witnesses that will look at a person in a bad way if they disagree with what they think and i am not talking about doctrine, im talking about music, movies, you know, stupid stuff. Now, if you are currently a witnesses and disagree with major docterine, as I said, I dont know if the Witnesses are the right religion for you. Im not talking about you in particular, i am talking about the people that say that if you disagree with the society you will get DF'd. I think that it really depends on what the subject is, is it major like Christs ransom sacrifice?

Anyway on to your question. I think Jehovah uses the org, however within reason. This is a subject that seems to be in the forefront of many of the newer assemblies and conventions. When I first came into the Witnesses the basic teaching that I accepted and was discussed among the people I studied with was that the anointed were men that were guided by holy spirit. Now, this didn’t mean that they didn’t make mistakes, this didn’t mean that were not imperfect men, etc. The apostles made mistakes and wrong interpitations, and the society has also. I have no problem with that, however I do think its not good that they are not quick to admit mistakes and do things such as infer that the friend are too overzealous thus shifting some of the blame for the 1975 incident. I think that I don’t feel that the mistakes are as a big deal as others do, however I think a lot of that has to do with my background. The people I studied with looking back were very reasonable and had a very reasonable attitude about the society. I look at some of these witnesses that act like the society is God’s mouth piece and wonder what would have happened to me spiritually if they were the ones that I studied with and made the society seem like an infallible prophet. Also, the society certainly doesn’t help with how they write sometimes and especially with the stuff that is being said at the conventions and assemblies in the past 5 or so years.

There seems to be what I guess I would call a movement of putting the society higher on the totem pole than it scripturally is. It seems that right now they are just talking mainly about “whole souled” and “loyal” dedication to the org. There was a phrase in the last convention in the outline of one of the talks that was like this: “ Why should we trust the organization? Because Jehovah and Jesus does.” Something about that does not sit well. Frankly I don’t think that its apostasy to discuss that. If the society or anyone says something that is not scriptural, I have no problem discussing it. Does it mean that now I think the society is bogus, and the whole religion is? No. Imperfect humans make grave mistakes, they are not the exception, even if they act like they are. The attitude that you must accept every word from either the society, co’s, do’s, elders, whatever as God’s words is a dangerous attitude. I think a lot of witnesses do this because its easy for them, they don’t have to think for themselves. Not all witnesses, but many. The problem with this attitude is that these are imperfect humans. What if an apostate has infiltrated the congregation?

Here is an account that happened to a close friend of mine. He was a servant in his hall and was close to this one elder. One time the elder and my friend drove to a nearby assembly hall to pick up a literature order. I guess at this time the elder felt very comfortable around my friend and proceeds to tell him about how free love is going to be prevalent in the paradise and that it was Gods intention that men have sex with all different kinds of women. LOL. The story was told to me as a funny story, but there is a serious side to it and that’s what will happen to one of these watchtower witnesses when a an apostate or someone with a wrong motive tries to mislead them? You can pretty much use any scripture you want out of context to get it to support your opinion if you have someone dumb enough or naive enough to think that you have Biblical authority. That is why getting back to your original question (yeah I know I went off on a huge tangent, lol) I believe that the scriptures support that Jehovah would have an earthly organization (again, just my opinion). However I think that imperfect humans, weather inside the society or in the congregations as with many things in life over do it.

Response to: nvrgnbk: I have not really found that to be the case. If you have, I respect that. The message that I preach and think is important is that Jehovah is God and loves us and wants us to benefit ourselves by following his laws outlined for us in the Bible (again, preface that by saying, this is my opinion, if you disagree that fine, etc), not all rap music is bad, or rated R movies are bad cause that’s not in there, but don’t murder, don’t steal, whatever the things are that have bad consequences on our lives. And that Jehovah is a loving God and wants to have a personal relationship with us and has provided means through sacrificing his son that we may be freed from death because of our sins. And that he has a plan in place to at some point destroy the wicked and get things back to the way he intended. Now I know some of you are probably barfing right now, but I think that the real basic stuff that attracted us to the religion when we hear it now after we have been hurt so much that its painful to hear it. But nvrgnbk brought up what the message is, and that is my message from the Bible as one of Jehovah’s Witnesses. Now as far as the dates are concerned, I think they are secondary. I mean, what does it matter if Jesus takes kingly power in 1913, 1914, 1919, 1925? To me it doesn’t matter, what matters is if he did. Can one make the argument that the society put itself in a corner with all the ra ra about dates and what not? Yes. Rutherford said he made an ass of himself. And humans that get out of line and put themselves above their position given to them by God will get humbled. You can look at examples where humans have tried to predict when Christ will come back or what this or that prophecy means, etc but has it ever worked out? Nope. That’s why I don’t care, Jehovah has a plan and he will execute it in his own time and instead of wasting time trying to figure something out that we wont, we should focus more on other stuff, like helping people or showing more love in the congregations.

Response to Confession: You bring up valid points and I am aware of those articles. However, I was not aware that any of it is law. It is council, and you can even argue its strong council. Firstly while I don’t agree with it, obviously, I understand to a point why they say not to even consider apostate literature. Many witnesses are lemmings and can be tricked into things. I think the society knows this. But even if that is their opinion of how I should behave, I am not aware that by me disagreeing with them on this point means that I cannot be a witness. I came into this religion with my eyes open and have always read everything. How can one find their own personal truth if they do not consider both sides? I am aware of the society’s stance on this matter, but I have to follow the Bible’s council. Whats funny is that there was an article written, I will have to find it that basically said that we should be like the Boreans with matters even what comes off the platform, now I almost choked on my coffee when I read it, but it was there. What I read and what I think and how I reason is between me and Jehovah. And until that becomes a disfellowshipping offense I think I will have to disagree with you that what you wrote is considered as law. But also, we may differ in opinion based on our experiences.

For instance I could totally understand it if you had an experience with an overly strict elder and used that article as a law in dealing with you. That happens all the time and its sad and my heart goes out to anyone that has been dealt with in that manner inaproapatly, I certainly will not judge you for none of us know how we would handle it in your shoes. Also I want to say that im not sure that I agree that im trying to help people understand different things, im really interested in a discussion. I don’t care to defend Jehovah’s Witnesses, I like to talk about Jehovah and the many, many painful issues that are going on. You are obviously in a different place than I am, and if you think that I will eventually get where you are, I can respect your opinion. I am not going to be ignorant and proclaim that it will never happen. I respect that you are where you are, and you think differently than I do. And you make valid points, some I don’t agree with, but again, our experiences does a lot in shaping our current views so I cannot judge you on how you feel. People react differently when they find out the various things about the society. To some it shakes their faith to their core and they cant handle it and leave. Some leave emotionally but stay to be with their family. For me I guess the bottom line is that, and I am aware of almost everthing, but the bottom line is none of this changes the fact that Jehovah is Jehovah, Jesus is Jesus and the Bible is the Bible. If the society gets so strict that a person like me can no longer be a witness then I will deal with that when it comes. I think that as long as I stay honest and truly try to figure out what Jehovah wants me to do I will be alright. I don’t believe that Jehovah is just going to throw all of these lost sheep away. I don’t believe he is a cold hearted task master like many do that’s just waiting to bash you in the head with his ceptor. Missed a meeting? BANG! Got only 5 hours last month? BANG! LoL. In the end Jehovah reads everyones hearts and there is a lot of pain and suffering right now and the society has a lot to answer for. You asked me which is worse? Those are both sad situations. I am not to judge and honestly I used the whole picketing thing as an example of an apostate. If you want to get detailed and go into the personal lives and experiences of a person who makes the decision to picket, that’s not something I can judge. I feel very sad for anyone that has been harmed by the elders, other witnesses or the society. I think its at a crisis level. I am rambling but these are deep issues packed with emotions and there is no easy answer or solution.

Response to avengers: Valid question. This is a situation that I have researched and its clear that the library card defense is not really all that honest. At first I had to dismiss it because the people talking to me about it could not provide enough proof. I am willing to consider anything, I think any person should see both sides of an argument. It wasent until a poster here, im don’t know the name, but I think he has a simpsons character as a avator. Providing facts is not apostasy. It is clear that the society made a grave error. What does it mean for me? I think about this and monitor it all the time. It’s the first time that I have thought that thins might get so crazy that the men in the society may do things that will make me guilty by association in the eyes of Jehovah. My personal opinion is that either the men that did this were either very stupid and used horrible judgment, or there is something more sinister afoot. I am not yet at the point where I think that its time to throw in towel, but its certainly a severe mistake. Anyone in the org that thinks Jehovah isn’t going to clean his own house is gravely mistaken. Do I think it makes them apostates? I don’t. However as I said I am certainly watching. Is it out of the question that in the end things will get so crazy that Satan uses the WT to try to mislead us? Certainly possible. Nowhere in the Bible does it say the org is infallible, nor does it say that its off limits for Satan to use to mislead us. We are in crazy time, that’s why as I said before, I just focus on my relationship with Jehovah, pray and study deeply and make the most honest decsion I can make. Again, this is all my opinion. If you don’t believe in Jehovah, or Satan, this wont make a whole lot of sense, which is cool, as I said to each his own.

Response to cognizant dissdent: In that discussing you are referring to, I was giving my personal opinion of why the word apostate is overused or misapplied. I used the type of person you described as my definition of an apostate. However this is just simply my opinion. If you are the type to do this, I respect your rights. I don’t agree with you, but on the other hand, I don’t know what you have been through, what your life experience has been. I understand why people get pissed off. I would not personally do it, but if you disagree that’s fine. We all in the end will answer for what we do and will know who is right and who is wrong, weather its God, Jesus, Allah or whatever we believe. Im not talking about what your rights are, your rights are your rights, I think that you should have the freedom to say whatever you want. I am a big fan of free speech and apostates have just as much of a right to speak their mind as everyone else. Im not sure what I typed to make you think that I think otherwise.

Response to cognizdant dissdent post #2: In regards to a climate of fear. I think that part of that goes into what kind of hall your are in, what the elders are like, etc. However while 10 years ago I didn’t notice this at all, and could freely discuss and question things, I would agree that now the atmosphere is quite diffent. Is it conducive to finding the truth? Not at all. I often wonder what I would have done if I had studied in 2007. Do I fear controlling information through guilt and fear is morally correct? I do not, however I am not yet at a point where I believe this to be the case. That’s pretty strong. Is it impossible? Not at all. I guess I would need examples of what you mean and then I can see if I agree with them or not. I mean, im pretty sure I am aware of many of the examples you are going to use, im just not sure I am where you are with it.

Response to dansk: Im not a fan of blanket statements. Can you say that about many witnesses? Of course. But all? Guess im an idiot in your eyes.

Response to Barbie Doll: Im not sure if those comments were directed at my post or in general. All I can say is that I have read some accounts on here that lead me to understand why you may have the opinion. I havent personally experienced. I will say however that witnesses are much less understanding of a baptized witness who questions than a new person. Im not sure when this started, either it is the sign of things changing maybe, or possibly my experience is not the norm. I have never gotten any heat for questioning things, perhaps I have been lucky.

78

A fair and reasonable question for Jehovah's Witnesses

by Gregor in

your organization has always been intently focused on "witnessing" and this includes going right up to strangers homes, knocking on their door attempting to engage them in a discussion of their beliefs.

you come prepared to point out the error of whatever faith they hold.

doctrines such as immortality of the soul, the trinity and eternal torment in hell you declare as false teachings and can back up your assertions with scriptures and skilled argument.

yourmomma

wow! im going to respond to all of your posts, however i ask you give me some time. this is gonna take a while. hopefully by the end of the day.

78

A fair and reasonable question for Jehovah's Witnesses

by Gregor in

your organization has always been intently focused on "witnessing" and this includes going right up to strangers homes, knocking on their door attempting to engage them in a discussion of their beliefs.

you come prepared to point out the error of whatever faith they hold.

doctrines such as immortality of the soul, the trinity and eternal torment in hell you declare as false teachings and can back up your assertions with scriptures and skilled argument.

yourmomma

nvrgnbk, yes, boredom and its not just me. I have talked to people who have been going for 40 years and are bored out of their minds, some of these people are old sisters from back in the day that could sit for 4 days in the heat for 8 hours at a convention. so that showed me that its not me, im not crazy. if you think witnesses are wrong, that is your right to your opinion. im not going to try to talk you out of it. as far as intellectual honesty, i always try to keep it real. im not really sure if their are certain subjects you are referring to. i honestly dont care about dates and all the hoopla over generations, 1914, 1919, whatever. it changes often, so i dont care. all i care about is Jehovah and that he is going to come and clean house and fix all of the problems. now again, you might not believe in Jehovah, and so your personal truth is something different. I think in matters of faith its hard to have conversations because faith requires a belief in something you cannot see. And i could go on and on about different ways I feel that Jehovah has blessed me, but if you dont believe in Jehovah that conversation is really not going to get anywhere. plus the "blessing from Jehovah" card is played to death by alot of witnesses, from getting a day off for a convention to getting an extra Big Mac in your bag at the drive through. lol

moshe, wow, "This is not a productive conversation"? lol. Those words have never come out of my mouth. I dont know what you guys were talking about, but I will say that alot of these Witnesses that are blindly following the org and not developing a relationship with Jehovah and not studying the Scriptures deeply dont know how to handle it when debates occur. I mean there is a proper way to debate and discuss. If I disagree with you, im going to show you why. If im not sure if I agree with you, im going to go home and research and come back and show you that you were either right or wrong. Facts are facts. And while absolute truth is sometimes hard to come by, i have no problem walking away agreeing to disagree. Now again, i wasent there, maybe you spooked them, I dont know you so im not sure what went on. Many, many of these witnesses now a days dont want to hear anything bad about the org, even if its true because they cant handle it because they have such weak minds. I will say one more thing however the WORST is when they try to make YOU the problem when you are simply discussing something factual yet negative. I can recall countless times people went to the elders for help and were told they(the victim) were the problem and that regardless of what the problem was, they were simply weak and not going to enough meetings, feild service, etc. Now, im not saying its all elders, but some, and those elders are doing damage. And its not rare either, its common that this happens. There is a epidemic right now of unloving elders serving.

bobld, yes that WT was troubling. Im not sure why but the WT's are just a non stop barrage of quit your job and pioneer, and if you cant pioneer change your circumstances, entertainment, dress, grooming, video games, going to sports games with work mates, or like you said the weddings, etc. its like instead of a deep study of Bible accounts, its just studies of conscience matters. While I will say that they did say that 2 people can come up with 2 different answers and we shouldn't judge people for making a conscience decision, we know full well thats what many witnesses do. Especially since that when the society writes one of these articles you can tell they have a leaning. They arent going to outright say, going to the church for a wedding is wrong, but they will word it in a way to make clear their leaning. It was funny because the first paragraph about it people were going off commenting about how not going was the right thing to do, but then on the next paragraph was about a person who disagreed and did something else and how that person should not be judged. lol. There were alot less comments on that one. I dont know what to tell you about some of these articles, and I fear it may get worse. We are starving for the deep stuff from years ago, but its just not there, you have to dig for it on your own, and most people dont do it, and frankly its not encouraged anymore.

outofthebox, I have always been in the real world. Not all witnesses are stuck in the matrix. but just because i woke up from the matrix doesnt mean that Jehovah, Jesus and the Bible are not longer true. Now, thats my opinion, if you feel differently thats cool. Again, i think witnesses are too quick to judge people for their beliefs so i dont judge people, ever.

78

A fair and reasonable question for Jehovah's Witnesses

by Gregor in

your organization has always been intently focused on "witnessing" and this includes going right up to strangers homes, knocking on their door attempting to engage them in a discussion of their beliefs.

you come prepared to point out the error of whatever faith they hold.

doctrines such as immortality of the soul, the trinity and eternal torment in hell you declare as false teachings and can back up your assertions with scriptures and skilled argument.

yourmomma

ok, im going to try one more time, here goes:

wow. i will try to address everyone's post. firstly, thanks for the welcoming. I forgot to add something, and that was, the reason i chose to read this board and to post is because this board is not like alot of apostate boards, and I dont think frankly that i can label this board an "apostate board". The apostate boards that I have seen are extreme, going as far as to super impose Christ's face into homosexual acts. And just very extreme in their hatred of the religion. Now granted I know some of you have hatred, however I am not to judge. I will say that I think there is a big difference between someone who is against the organization because they have been hurt by it. I mean there are some people, many people that have been so damaged and hurt by either the local congregation or the society that I frankly wonder what I would be like if I was in their shoes. Im not saying at all that I would agree with people who make it their goal to crush witnesses, however I think the bottom line is that the word "apostate" is overused and misused.

Anyway first response is to "Open Mind": Thanks, and I will try to take them with a grain of salt.

Response to "purplesofa": This is a touchy issue and before I comment I think that its important to realize that alot of peoples experiences are different in how they have been dealt with, or how they themselves have dealt with the org. While I personally so far have not see anyone removed for simply questioning, I am more than willing to consider any information. I think it depends on how you question, and also who you are questioning to. Are you questioning to a reasonable elder, or a strict power trip elder? If you are going to bring up questions to the wrong elder, you will likely get rolled. It made me cringe when I read on this board that someone was showing a sister the child abuse issues and her reaction was to bring a list of questions to the CO. This sister is naive, not that I fault her, because im sure she is not fully aware of many of the problems that will cause. I fear if she does this, unless its a reasonable CO, she will have a faith shattering experience. Also the issue of what you are questioning is an issue. If for instance you truly believe that Jesus is God, or that we all go to heaven, the Witnesses are probably not the religion for you so I dont see any use fighting them over that. There is an issue however if that does happen that you will likely get DF'd and that is a tough situation. I think that if a person truly cannot accept a belief and he is being honest with himself, God sees it and is not getting his ax ready to kill you. Again I think it goes back to what your personal experience has been like. Were your parents liberal or strict, what about the elders in your hall, cool or crazy? I was lucky the first 6 years in my old hall that the elders i would talk to believed the truth stood on its own and they didnt fear any subject and I could ask them any question and have a good talk. What I didnt realize is that it seems that this is becoming more and more rare.

Response to Gopher: You bring up an interesting point. The term "they". I assume you mean that when there is a speaker at a meeting, assembly or convention talking about apostates. As I said, I base my personal view of apostates purely as it is in the Bible. This is a tricky subject and I am not going to be like most witnesses and just judge apostates because it is not my place. I am going to state my personal opinion that there is a difference between a person who has or is discussing bad and hurtful treatment by the org or cong. and a person that gets on a bull horn and hangs out after the assembly and goes off about it. Now I know some of you may feel that is ok, thats fine. We will disagree there. I still will not judge you, I dont agree that this is how to go about it, but as I said, I cant put myself in anyones shoes. Now, another point is that I know there are some witnesses that view an apostate as a person who is a "fault finder". Fault finding is fundamentally different than talking about facts. For instance, in my view it is not apostasy to discuss the sex abuse issues, or the United Nations issues. However again, picketing in Brooklyn with an "F Bethel" sign because of those things crosses the line. Again, this is just my opinion. If you disagree again im not going to judge cause its not my right or place. Another point I want to bring up is that recently I feel this subject is being talked about much more at assemblies and conventions. I remember when I was studying someone left a pamphlet on my car. I read it, disagreed with it, and chucked it. I innocently brought this up to my friend and he went off about how they can trick me and they write a certain way to trick us. I know alot of witnesses feel that way. But I dont.

I dont think there is anything the truth cannot stand up to. i dont want to sound corny because im sure you get alot of that crap by the occasional high and mighty witness that comes on here to condemn you. And by "the truth" i am talking about the truth I PERSONALLY believe about Jehovah and the Bible. Your truth may be different, thats ok, we will all know in the end what God expects or expected from each of us. So im not going to sit here and tell you that your truth is wrong, now I know many, many witnesses do this and i think its wrong and embarrassing. When people talk to me and find out I am a witness they are shocked because I have not personally attacked their beliefs. I mean seriously, even if you or I think someone's beliefs are wrong, how sick is it to tell them to their face that they are wrong and we are right and they are going to die? LOL! Humans are idiots. LOL! (I am also an idiot but in different ways) So anyway I have gotten off track and you can tell I just write with no direction but these are very deep matters. Anyway, bottom line I always take what "they" say and treat it as the Boreans did. Thats me, many witnesses just take everything as law.

Response to nvrgnbk: I have read, alot, for years. I have been reading since day 1. I think that may be why I am different than many JW's. I never accepted the whole "dont ask about God, just sit there and believe" thats what the Catholic Church does. (No offense to anyone Catholic, if you are Catholic I respect your right to believe what you want and I am not judging you.) Now, when I came into the religion, the elders and other witnesses surrounding me agreed with that, and we discussed things all the time. I have always been the type that has to see things for himself. Doubting Thomas was not condemned, you know what im saying? I will say that there seems to be an air about the society at the assemblies and conventions that is more "dont ask, just trust us, Jehovah trusts us". I dont agree with that, however again, i missed the memo that made suggestions from the society law. My time in the JW's has spanned from the 80's, 90's and now, and there is definatly a simplifying or dumbing down of alot of the literature. This can and has been proven scientifically and mathematically.

Now, if they do it sometimes for people with learning problems so they can also learn, that is totally fine, but its to the point where its the majority of stuff written. I mean, the stuff out now in no way even comes close to the publications that were out back years ago. Same with the information that is at the meetings, its for the most part very basic, and while im cool with it being like that sometime, it is spiritually weakening if its like that all the time. Its a tough time right now if the basic stuff doesnt stimulate you spiritually. I think im more old school. I'll also make an observation however, you seem to imply that I am on a journey of some sort, and that a person who is stil a witness could not possibly reach the correct conclusion? I might be reading into that too much. But if thats the case, I think that its impossible to make a judgment like that without knowing a person. I think that the people that put a huge blanket over all witnesses as stupid donkeys in spiritual darkness that follow men is the same type of blanket the watchtower witnesses put on all people who disagree with the society.

Response to Summer, Anti Christ: Thanks!

Response to Paralipomenon: Thanks for the warning. That is a great, great analogy, wow. I think that those who assume I am a stupid donkey for still being in, are similar to those watchtower witnesses that think anyone who is not like them at every second of every meetings taking in everything as 100% gospel is spiritually weak and "worldly". Im not going to judge anyone, and if they judge me for still being a witness, so be it, it wont be the first time or the last someone judges me. Hell, the witnesses i have been around are some of the most judgmental mo fo's I have ever seen! Looks like they have something in common. ;) I just want to say that if you are going to be disrespectful or judgmental, i will likely pass on having a conversation. I have about as much interest in that as i do in talking to a watchtower witness about how turning in your field service slip on time shows how loyal you are to Jehovah.

Response to Open Mind: Thats a valid point. I cant really control what is printed in the WT. The society has in the past made some strong comments, and unfortunately alot of those comments are coming back to bite them. Im not sure who told the society that they had the right to judge. Sadly what you are talking about is something that has turned many people off to the witnesses. I think that we have to ask ourselves if we believe that Jehovah is that type of God and base it on the accounts in the Bible that showed how Jesus dealt with people. I think that one of the gravest errors the society has ever made was their lack of humility and acting somewhat infallible.

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A fair and reasonable question for Jehovah's Witnesses

by Gregor in

your organization has always been intently focused on "witnessing" and this includes going right up to strangers homes, knocking on their door attempting to engage them in a discussion of their beliefs.

you come prepared to point out the error of whatever faith they hold.

doctrines such as immortality of the soul, the trinity and eternal torment in hell you declare as false teachings and can back up your assertions with scriptures and skilled argument.

yourmomma

78

A fair and reasonable question for Jehovah's Witnesses

by Gregor in

your organization has always been intently focused on "witnessing" and this includes going right up to strangers homes, knocking on their door attempting to engage them in a discussion of their beliefs.

you come prepared to point out the error of whatever faith they hold.

doctrines such as immortality of the soul, the trinity and eternal torment in hell you declare as false teachings and can back up your assertions with scriptures and skilled argument.

yourmomma

78

A fair and reasonable question for Jehovah's Witnesses

by Gregor in

your organization has always been intently focused on "witnessing" and this includes going right up to strangers homes, knocking on their door attempting to engage them in a discussion of their beliefs.

you come prepared to point out the error of whatever faith they hold.

doctrines such as immortality of the soul, the trinity and eternal torment in hell you declare as false teachings and can back up your assertions with scriptures and skilled argument.

yourmomma

these blank posts were me having trouble formatting my post so it didnt look like 1 big block. sorry mods!

78

A fair and reasonable question for Jehovah's Witnesses

by Gregor in

your organization has always been intently focused on "witnessing" and this includes going right up to strangers homes, knocking on their door attempting to engage them in a discussion of their beliefs.

you come prepared to point out the error of whatever faith they hold.

doctrines such as immortality of the soul, the trinity and eternal torment in hell you declare as false teachings and can back up your assertions with scriptures and skilled argument.

yourmomma

78

A fair and reasonable question for Jehovah's Witnesses

by Gregor in

your organization has always been intently focused on "witnessing" and this includes going right up to strangers homes, knocking on their door attempting to engage them in a discussion of their beliefs.

you come prepared to point out the error of whatever faith they hold.

doctrines such as immortality of the soul, the trinity and eternal torment in hell you declare as false teachings and can back up your assertions with scriptures and skilled argument.

yourmomma

this is my first post here. i am hoping that since i am probably in the minority here that we can show a mutual respect for each other beliefs. im willing to discuss anything if we can keep it respectful. now before i go on, i will say that in my observation many of the active witnesses that come on this site, have an arrogance about them that turns people off. hell, it turns me off. a quick example is there was a witness who was studying on here and the blood issue was brought up. her basic response was a blanket statement that there is nothing wrong with the blood issue and so what if she dies, she has the resurrection. Now that may be true, however its comments like that, that make witnesses look like nut jobs. (in the grand scheme of things, that is a minor one, lol) My comment would be that not all witnesses are like that, and there are witnesses like myself who cringe at the stuff many witnesses say or do. Are alot of witnesses like that? Yes. Are many, many witnesses making life or death decisions based on only what the society allows and not what they themselves have researched? Yes. Thats sad and a mess. But its real. Here is the thing about me, regardless, I try to keep it real as much as possible. Facts are facts. The witnesses that the OP is talking about that believe they are forbade to even entertain opposing viewpoints or debate them are Watchtower Witnesses. These people would deny the ransom sacrifice is the society wrote an article that said Jesus was no longer in the equation. Now, I know many here are going to jump all over me and bring up the fact that the society says not to go on the internet, not to do this, not to do that. my response is, I did not get the memo that said that as one of Jehovah's Witnesses I had to take all suggestions the society makes as laws. Do alot of witnesses think that? Yes. Is it right? No, its clearly scripturally not the case. Anyway, as I said, i am open to discussion, all i ask is we keep it respectful. I will say that I respect the fact that each person on this board has a right to believe whatever they want to just as I do. I am in no way authorized to judge anyone, nor am I authorized to judge anyone an apostate. People that judge other people are idiots. That is one of the most clear scriptural principles there is, and yet people still do it. Oh well, thats another issue. Anyway, I have browsed this place for a while and frankly many of you I would not consider apostates. What I see is that there are people who have been gravely harmed by other witnesses and the society and use this board as therapy. I use the Bibles view of apostates, not anyone elses. An apostate is not a person who talks about real problems and real mistakes the society has made. Talking about the fact that the society and the congregations are in crisis, does not make you an apostate, at least not Bibilicy and frankly any other opinion other than the Bibles, I am not interested in, weather they are apostates or the society. Anyway, I dont want to come off preachy, thats one of the reasons i posted because the original poster is referring to witnesses and due to the fact that alot of witnesses are rude, arrogant, putting their foot in the door mo fo's, he looks at all witnesses that way. I am here to say that not all of them are like that. Most of them are, lol, but not all. haha Keep it real!