Posts by Gopher

7

"The nations will know"

by Jr in

no doubt you are familiar with the text at eze.

36:23. i quote, and the nations will have to know that i am jehovah, is the utterance of the sovereign lord jehovah.

it was used as a title for one of the study publications years ago.

JR: You took the name I was going to have, because those are my initials! But you were here first. Anyways, you string together some interesting scriptures. Would you be willing to clarify your position, so I can understand it better?

Daniel 12:10 speaks of a difference between those who whiten themselves and those who are wicked. While Revelation 7:14 says that those who whiten themselves "come out" of the great tribulation, evidently meaning they survived through it, does that necessarily mean THEY are the great tribulation's primary object? Later in vss. 15 to 17 a very peaceful, happy group of worshippers are presented.

I would cite an earlier precedent of the Flood, which would seem to parallel the future "great tribulation". Noah and his family certainly made it THROUGH that tribulation/flood, but they were not its object. They had to be spiritually pure or "whitened" to endure all that they did faithfully in the time leading up to the Flood.

It seems that the "dashing" of God's people indicate a severe time of trial. You cited Revelation 11 in your post. Yet later, after that 'dashing' (or 'trampling', as Revelation says) in verse 11 it shows that they actually attain God's favor, out of reach of their spiritual enemies.

Bottom line to me, are you trying to say that to belong to God's people in the last days, the ones who would see salvation, you would also have to be subject to constant "dashing" and "trampling"? And that if we don't belong to an organization undergoing such turmoil, that we are going to miss out on God's provision of salvation?

Please clarify, if you will.

7

"Pay Attention" book; Sharing on Judi...

by TR in

jw
friends

sharing .

on a judicial committee .

"when having a hearing between your brothers, you must .

Gopher

Wow, TR -- you have really touched a sensitive nerve here!

My background, briefly: I was disfellowshipped (it could be said on "partial knowledge"), and my sister DA'd herself many years ago after she felt the elders were seeking an excuse to DF her.

There are couple of dynamics at work here, I believe. They are both due to human imperfection and have nothing at all to do with the operation of God's holy spirit on the decision-making process.

(1) In the various congregations I have attended, it seems there was a sharp division between the "reasonable" and "merciful" elders who sought to apply the counsel you cited, and those who enjoyed their exercise of power and were, could I say, a bit harsh. And when there is such a division, whether on elder bodies or on judicial committees, guess which side wins, and guess which side yields?!

(2) At times the elders may be burdened with "too many things to do". You know, the Society has them on a treadmill doing a lot of the same things over and over. So when it comes to a matter of judgement, which can "affect people's lives and relationships with others", they may be in a bit of a hurry to get a matter over. Sometimes when dealing with other people's lives, elders ought to be very self-sacrificing and spend more time than they expected. After all, any disfellowshipping is very harsh and the consequences last years if not a lifetime. Do they ALWAYS fully take these facts into consideration?

Thanks for bringing up a vital topic!

20

Introducing.... me

by Gopher in

i discovered this site about 3 weeks ago, and have been watching closely.

i sure am impressed!

for the most part, the people out here treat each other the way i had hoped those inside the new world society would.

Gopher

Ding, ding, ding.... We have a winner!

Notperfectyet, you are too good. Perhaps you checked the side panel of your cereal box, and saw that General Mills is headquartered in beatiful Golden Valley, Minnesota (just a 3-minute drive from where I live).

Also for those interested, 3M stands for "Minnesota Mining and Manufacturing". They have come a long way from their roots! They are the city of St. Paul's driving economic force, although located in the suburb of Maplewood.

What do you win? I was going to offer you a tub of lutefisk , but rather than those stinky fish I'll just give you my kindest regards from the "frozen tundra".

16

Serena Williams

by expatbrit in

jw
friends

from the bbc:.

serena williams showed real maturity to come from behind and win the indian wells title with a 4-6 6-4 6-2 victory over rising star kim clijsters in front of a hostile crowd.

the younger of the williams' sisters incurred the wrath of the crowd because of her route to the final - elder sister venus pulled out of the their semi-final with a knee injury.

Gopher

So Serena, is Jehovah really supposed to CARE who wins a tennis match between you and Ms. Clijsters? C'mon!

And talk about a "persecution complex"! The Williams' sisters seem to want to have one foot in the world, and one foot in the organization. So they're viewed with suspcision by "both" sides. Even their peers have found them rather aloof! I've heard John McEnroe plead with them on American television to please loosen up and treat their fellow pros with at least some kindness.

So it's no wonder that their peers and the press don't cut them much slack! They made their bed!

I hope all the money they're making is worth the sacrifice of a well-adjusted life and the sacrifice of their true values!

20

Introducing.... me

by Gopher in

i discovered this site about 3 weeks ago, and have been watching closely.

i sure am impressed!

for the most part, the people out here treat each other the way i had hoped those inside the new world society would.

Gopher

Mommy,

Thanks for the welcome. And nope, it's not Kansas or Oklahoma.

Okay, I'll give out a clue: My state has the world headquarters of 3M and General Mills.

18

I'm curious

by teejay in

jw
friends

to all loyal jehovah's witnesses:.

the bible says that at the mouth of three witnesses let every matter be firmly established.

so i'm curious... if you had to choose only three, what three things about the watchtower society and/or it's teachings convinces you beyond any doubt that jehovah's witnesses has the truth about the bible and is the sole representative of jehovah on earth today?.

Gopher

Hi Teejay! Great topic!

To Logical: Up until very recently, I would defend / explain the Society's position on anything, until I was roughly treated by its representatives. I still believe some of its basic tenets, such as no Trinity and no Immortal Soul. I am, in fact, grateful for those elements of truth.

However, there are other religions who share some elements of Witness teaching, I am sure you would agree.

To wit, you said JW's are iconoclastic. If I am not mistaken, there are several non-Catholic religions who also do not use images in their worship, like JW's don't.

You also said that JW's are monotheistic, as well the true religion should be. I believe the Unitarians (by their very name) believe in one and only one Creator. So do the Moslems.

Finally, your first point was that JW's are called by God's name, which as I recall was from Isaiah 43. That was a point that had me convinced JW's could be the ONLY religion that had truth. However, anyone can appropriate a title to themselves. Surely, you do not believe that all religions who call themselves "Christian" surely reflect the spirit of Christ? So, any group can take a name and use it to suit their purpose. In my hometown, can you believe there is even a "Jehovah Lutheran" church? I am not kidding. The church's largest benefactor loves the name Jehovah, and would withdraw his support if they took God's name off of their church.

Although I believe many, perhaps most of the Bible-based teachings of Jehovah's Witnesses, I believe that by calling themselves by God's own name, they take on a HUGE responsibility. For example, 1 John 4 says "God is love". If JW's truly represented Jehovah, they would re-visit or eliminate their practice of shunning family members. Please read Esmeralda's recent post about "A Child's Innocent Question". Also, I am speaking from personal experience.

Lastly, you cited Romans 2:20 about the "framework" of knowledge, as that verse says. In context, Paul was chiding the Judaizers in the Roman congregation. In the very next verse, he tells them -- in effect -- "If you have so much knowledge, why don't you practice what you preach?" See verse 24, where he summarizes his argument, "For the name of God is being blasphemed on account of YOU people among the nations, just as it is written."

So the context of the "framework of knowledge" shows that knowledge without a proper attitude or right works to back it up can actually lead to God's frown of disapproval.

Thanks for listening. Are my thoughts at least reasonable?

20

Introducing.... me

by Gopher in

i discovered this site about 3 weeks ago, and have been watching closely.

i sure am impressed!

for the most part, the people out here treat each other the way i had hoped those inside the new world society would.

Gopher

Neyank,

Is that name short for "North-east Yankee", BTW?

Just to reply -- I never posted on H20. I just recently started cruising through these sites and so am truly a "newbie".

So if I took someone's name from H2O, it was by mistake.

Thanks for your post!

9

A child's innocent questions about shunning

by Esmeralda in

jw
friends

one night last week, my five year old daughter couldn't fall asleep.

we could hear her upstairs as she tossed and turned a bit, then finally reappeared from her bedroom and crept down the stairs.

"what's wrong?

Gopher

Esmeralda,

Thanks for sharing that touching conversation! I also enjoyed earlier posts re: You and Justin, and how wonderful he is.

You have 2 great blessings in your husband and your daughter. (I have a 2-year-old daughter who will probably be raised in the organization, and therefore will be given suspicions about how "bad" I am for not re-joining the organization. She loves me now, though! See my story in the "Meet New Friends" forum that I posted last night.)

I am stunned that an organization that could put out 2 fine books on "Family Life" in the last 25 years (or so) could then enforce something so unloving as shunning family members. What seems to come with that policy is an unwritten code that gossiping and backstabbing your target is okay, because they won't survive Armageddon anyways!

Best wishes to you. BTW, love those '4 agreements'.

20

Introducing.... me

by Gopher in

i discovered this site about 3 weeks ago, and have been watching closely.

i sure am impressed!

for the most part, the people out here treat each other the way i had hoped those inside the new world society would.

Gopher

To EYES, TW and 7: Thanks for the welcome.

To ISP: I thought about going to the "Sex" forum to introduce myself, but I am too repressed for that! That's the only reason I gave the "Making New Friends" forum a shot. It seems to have worked. But I'll pull the shades and view the "Sex" forum on your advice.

To Expatbrit: I've never seen "The Life of Brian". It was rated "R" (in the USA, nobody under 17 is allowed in to the theater without an adult...yeah, right!). But I think I'll rent it just for that one scene! Jehovah! Jehovah! Don't stone me!

To anyone else reading: Gopher is a hint at what state in the United States I am from. Any guesses?

20

Introducing.... me

by Gopher in

i discovered this site about 3 weeks ago, and have been watching closely.

i sure am impressed!

for the most part, the people out here treat each other the way i had hoped those inside the new world society would.

Gopher

Hi everyone. I discovered this site about 3 weeks ago, and have been watching closely. I sure am impressed! For the most part, the people out here treat each other the way I had hoped those inside the “New World society” would. I would be honored to be allowed to share in the discussion board during the next few weeks, few months, or (who knows?) years to come. I have come to appreciate the loving spirit and lack of judgment that most folks out here display. And you can say “Jehovah” out here without getting any funny looks!

First, thank you Simon for putting together a site that is the perfect combination of good technology and the human touch. I know the numbers flocking here have been massive, but I hope this site retains its friendly “feel”.

My story, briefly: I had been a 3rd-generation Witness. I was given the appointment of Ministerial Servant and briefly pioneered. Since both my sister and I are out (we have no siblings), there will be no 4th-generation JW’s in this family, with the possible exception of my now 2-year old daughter. Her mother (from whom I am separated) is currently DF’d. Sadly, it seems she will seek reinstatement, despite seeing and expressing to me how unlovingly she had been treated.

In the last year, I have been disfellowshipped (due to harsh judgment against me—perhaps I didn’t look sad enough at the J.C. meeting), I have been crippled (due to a spinal-arthritis flare-up), and have had two surgeries (appendectomy and kidney stones), not to mention being separated with an upcoming divorce.

What has gotten me through? Interestingly enough, I believe Jehovah has. Without a mediating “organization”, I have seen His hand in a few matters. One thing is the kindness of people in general. I walk with a cane (although I am not really that old), and many people I have encountered in public have gone far out of their way to be helpful. (I was raised to believe people “outside” the organization in general had no good standards. Hah!)

Also, my sister (who DA’d herself many years ago) has been a great comfort. We have been re-united. She is practically the only family I have. Also, while reading a newspaper article on-line about the Society’s re-organization (back a few months ago), I came across Freeminds.org. That site helped turn me from a Society apologist into a realist very quickly!

Eventually I found you all here at Jehovahs-Witness.com. You have got me addicted! Everyday, I find myself reading the boards and becoming emotionally involved! Currently, I am mainly interested in seeing how people recover from the organization, and how they deal with Witness relatives, which I am afraid will soon become a much bigger issue once the 1st and 2nd generation learn I don’t intend to return to the Witness fold.

In conclusion, to those of you who made it to the bottom of this wordy post, thank you from the bottom of my heart!