Posts by Gopher

10

Trust your HEART or your CONSCIENCE?

by LDH in

jw
friends

over the past few weeks i have been thinking about this and wanted to get your input.. it seems to me the wbts has taken one scripture, jer.

10:23 (the heart is treacherous, who can know it) and used it to build their whole religion.

they have convinced us that all of men's hearts are pure evil, and i just don't find that to be true!.

Gopher

Hi LDH. I'm a "newbie" here, but I have been lurking for several weeks. I have enjoyed many of your posts. They make me think hard!

As far as "heart", the Society teaches that it is the "inner person" or the "inner motivating force of your life". They don't totally ignore the "heart", but mostly what I had learned from the WTS about the "heart" relates to the ministry they ask of their adherents. Do you do "half-hearted" service (with your attentions divided), or are you perhaps "double-hearted" (leading a double life)?

As far as "conscience", what they say about "Bible-trained conscience" and what they expect of their members are logically 2 different things, in accord with what you point out. My example (I keep harping on this in my posts, because it is what currently is most sensitive to me) is the shunning arrangement. Nothing in the Bible supports the current extent of the JW shunning policy. If JW's followed a Bible-trained conscience, they would not shun family members who have erred or who have been accused of such. Recently, I have met up with 2 old friends who say their JW families have dropped the harsh shunning of their DF'd family member.

As far as people flooding out of the truth if they would listen to their doubts, I don't know. Sometimes their social "strings" are so tight that many or most would feel compelled to stay, figuring that the "good" outweighs the "bad". For me, it's only after I was shoved out on my own that I was able to let the doubts I had harbored since a young age become actual, logical thoughts. I'm relieved to be out!

Thanks for listening!

20

Introducing.... me

by Gopher in

i discovered this site about 3 weeks ago, and have been watching closely.

i sure am impressed!

for the most part, the people out here treat each other the way i had hoped those inside the new world society would.

Gopher

Kismet,

What a way to end the day! Thanks for your post! Yes, I do know the brother in question. (His initials are W.S.) The family was in North Mpls. congregation, which shares the KH with Dowling. His sister and brother-in-law live crosstown from me as well, and we were good friends up until last year, when, well, you know!

Feel free to e-mail me because I haven't a clue about who you are. (I feel so foolish!)

Christian love, Gopher

5

Hi everyone, just registered

by Jsandmusic in

jw
friends

just found this place.

it looks like some really sensible posting is going on, for the most part.

i'm not a jw, but i have family "in the truth?

Gopher

Hi Bob. I'm a "newbie" as well, but let me be among the first to welcome you here!

I "lurked" and watched for about 3 weeks, and came to the same conclusion you did. This is a very worthwhile place to come visit.

I was DF'd about a year ago, and for the last few months have had an aching loneliness until I found this DB. This place is helping me get on with life. (Just thought you'd like a real-life testimony.)

20

Introducing.... me

by Gopher in

i discovered this site about 3 weeks ago, and have been watching closely.

i sure am impressed!

for the most part, the people out here treat each other the way i had hoped those inside the new world society would.

Gopher

Thanks, open-minded. I have e-mailed you.

Also, thanks RHW. (See, I already have some of the lingo mastered!)
I appreciate your offer. Who could be behind such a tempting offer? Could it beeeee.........SATAN?

Actually I was just confused. If I used the "Sex" forum to introduce myself, wouldn't that be considered a casual use of "sex". Sex should be for people who already know each other, right?

And then what would be the use of the "Meet New Friends" forum? So I took a gamble, and attracted enough attention to make me feel welcome.

Thanks for making me feel "at home" already!

2

"this teaching"

by somebody in

"if anyone comes to you and does not bring this teaching, never receive him into your homes or say a greeting to him.".

i know that the "society" uses this scripture to instruct it's members on how to view other members that have been judged and condemmed.

(i. e. disfellowshipped) i'm intersted in opinions of what "this teaching" is referring to in the verse.

Gopher

I'd be happy to "give this a go".

Verse 9 said "Everyone that pushes ahead and does not remain in THE TEACHING OF THE CHRIST does not have God".

Verse 7 defines the opposite of "this teaching", when it says "For many deceivers have gone forth into the world, PERSONS NOT CONFESSING JESUS CHRIST AS COMING IN THE FLESH."

It seems that the teaching has to do with faith in the miracle that the Son of God came from heaven and represented God's interests while here. Pushing ahead would seem to indicate lack of faith in that provision, and urging people to either ignore that or to hope in something else!

18

I'm curious

by teejay in

jw
friends

to all loyal jehovah's witnesses:.

the bible says that at the mouth of three witnesses let every matter be firmly established.

so i'm curious... if you had to choose only three, what three things about the watchtower society and/or it's teachings convinces you beyond any doubt that jehovah's witnesses has the truth about the bible and is the sole representative of jehovah on earth today?.

Gopher

Closed circuit to open-minded: Welcome to the discussion board!

Yes, I am still in the Twin Cities area. Please read my post which is currently at the top of the "Meet New Friends" forum here. Then please send me an e-mail.

Agape (can I say that without sounding too JW-ish?), Gopher

56

Why I Think Its The Truth!

by normie67 in

jw
friends

this is normie thoughts on the threads about the truth..... i have huge doubts about a lot of things about the org.

i have been a jw for 20 yrs and still active(family reasons).

but nobody but nobody has refuted to my mind, the fact nobody does the evangelizing work jesus did.

Gopher

Hey Norm, I just got back from lunch. (Burp! Excuse me!)

Now to your question about Jehovah's name. I was brought up to use that name and see no reason at all to discontinue the practice. JW's did not invent the name Jehovah. It has been in common usage in our language for well over 5 centuries. So it's factual. If people have a hang-up about it, well I don't. (Jehovah, Yahweh, at least use a personal name.)

Yes, I learned Jehovah's name from JW's. I'm not ungrateful for the truths I learned while in the organization, including "No Trinity" and "No Immortal Soul". I don't agree with some of the more esoteric teachings of the WT Society. That having been said, there are other religious organizations (such as Unitarians and Moslems) who believe in one singular Creator. And I know JW's are not the only one who share their teaching about "soul".

My point is, there are different teachings that have been combined to make up the body of doctrine of each religion. Some of the differences we might find quite distressing indeed!

However, the main difference I have with JW's now is what I had posted earlier about the lack of love in certain hard-line organizational practices of JW's. So important as the name "Jehovah" is, even MORE important is how do you individually (and by extension, I guess any group we choose to belong to) represent that name, not by WORKS but by LOVE.

If we choose to associate with an organization, than we bear community responsibility for its decisions. (The Watchtower has even said that about God's judgments, past and future!) That's why, based on personal experience, I cannot go back to associate with God's organization. I have found certain practices to be unloving therein, and so my re-association could not be wholehearted.

Sorry to ramble.

56

Why I Think Its The Truth!

by normie67 in

jw
friends

this is normie thoughts on the threads about the truth..... i have huge doubts about a lot of things about the org.

i have been a jw for 20 yrs and still active(family reasons).

but nobody but nobody has refuted to my mind, the fact nobody does the evangelizing work jesus did.

Gopher

Hi Normie. I don't think we've met yet. I'm a "newbie" and probably cannot give as fine an answer as some others who have been around longer, but I want to share a couple of thoughts. You asked, right?

Before I go on, let me say that these discussions are at the "thoughtful, rational" level, and not meant in any way as an emotional appeal to leave an organization. Everyone must decide for him or herself. No family members or no posters can take that responsibility away from you!

And more before I go on, you can read more about me in the "Meet new Friends" forum. I was, er, dismissed from the organization about a year ago. My parents & grandmas are still "in", my sister is "out", and I live on my own. (So much better to have time to respond on these forums.)

Your post focuses on the "Works" done by Jehovah's Witnesses. And that too was my reasoning (both inwardly and when asked out in the ministry) as to a major reason why we have the truth. This is not to totally eliminate the value of "works", because even Titus 2:14 says that God would cleanse for himselves a people zealous for fine works.

However, the main identifying feature of Christians is to be love. You know that John 13:35 backs that up. When an organization grows as large and autocratic as the Society has, often love gets replaced by efficiency. In terms of human emotion, where that costs most is the disfellowshipping/shunning arrangement. I never seriously thought about that until recently, because I had never personally come in contact with it. I believed the "company line" (oops, I almost typed "company lie") that it is a LOVING thing, for the GOOD of the families and the accused.

I now know from personal experience and from seeing others affected that this in fact runs rough-shod over people's feelings. (See Esmeralda's post, "A Child's Innocent Question".) The whole arrangement is so unnatural and forced, and unnecessary. There MUST be a better way to deal with accused people than this.

So the way I have come to view things is this: Remember the WT study about the dragnet, where organizations that use the Bible capture both suitable and unsuitable fish, and the unsuitable are thrown out? I have come to believe that JW's, along with many other Bible-teaching religions, constitute that dragnet, and that good people and bad people exist in all such organizations. The beliefs between the organizations may be somewhat different, but the point is they're all being exposed to the Bible's message through the WORKS of the various churches (which is carried on in different ways and in different degrees), and then Jesus can go through and in his ultimate wisdom (granted him by Jehovah) sort through and see who is worthy of salvation. I cannot believe any other way. I have seen some really fine people who happen to associate with religions whose views I don't agree with. But I must say, their personality certainly looks like Christian fruitage to me!

16

Serena Williams

by expatbrit in

jw
friends

from the bbc:.

serena williams showed real maturity to come from behind and win the indian wells title with a 4-6 6-4 6-2 victory over rising star kim clijsters in front of a hostile crowd.

the younger of the williams' sisters incurred the wrath of the crowd because of her route to the final - elder sister venus pulled out of the their semi-final with a knee injury.

Gopher

OK 7, you got me. Nothing personal felt on this side. Just an exchange of different ideas.

I will grant you that what they have accomplished as African-Americans, and as people in their field is truly amazing. And whenever I watch them, I do secretly pull for them.

I don't mean to sound judgmental. But when Serena brings Jehovah's name into the equation as far as a specific sporting event is concerned, I cringe. I like that they are open about their beliefs as Jehovah's Witnesses. I read a very favorable article in "Sports Illustrated" from Rick Reilly about 2-3(?) years ago which spoke of them leaving magazines in the locker rooms for others to read, etc.

You are right about John McEnroe not being the ideal role-model. However, I do believe he is only voicing what others are saying. He did not start the idea that maybe they could open up.

After all, if they represent a loving Father and his loving Son, shouldn't they try to treat their peers (their "neighbors") in a loving, respectful way, no matter how hard it may seem to be? "You catch more flies with honey than with vinegar." (Sorry for the trite saying, I couldn't think of any other.)

Agape, Gopher

7

"The nations will know"

by Jr in

no doubt you are familiar with the text at eze.

36:23. i quote, and the nations will have to know that i am jehovah, is the utterance of the sovereign lord jehovah.

it was used as a title for one of the study publications years ago.

Gopher

Wakeupcall: I do not know your background, but I'll briefly give you mine. I was a faithful JW member up until 1 year ago, when they, shall you say, dismissed me. Even after that, I would explain / defend the Society's belief's up until more recent events in my life caused me to stop and think, why I am defending them? (The Freeminds site was a great help to me.) So while I still agree with some of the basic tenets of the JW faith, I cannot any longer believe it is God's chosen singular instrument of truth, through whom you must approach God, etc., etc.

Now comes my question: I went to the Truthandgrace web site. I see that its primary goal is to debunk the teachings of the WT magazine and give glory to Jesus Christ. I want it to do so, but only in the most truthful manner possible.

For example, when the website said "There are NO witnesses in mainland China", that is obviously an exaggeration and an untruth. There are many JW's there and many other Christian groups operating underground, although with great persecution.

Do you know why "Truthandgrace" uses exaggeration to debunk the Witnesses? I would submit to them, there are enough openings to do so in a truthful manner.