The reaction to the announcement of this new arrangement, while predictable, still makes me shake my head. 'Clearly Jehovah is directing things here; he's adjusting things because he knows we're very close to the end and really need more time for personal and family study.' What would be the reaction if the announcement was that the book study will now be held twice a week instead of once? 'Clearly Jehovah is directing things here; he knows the end is near and that we really need more spiritual food.' Heads God wins; tails you lose. PS: was (finally!!) disfellowshipped tonight for "deliberately spreading false teachings". free at last. free at last.
botheyesopen
JoinedPosts by botheyesopen
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Effects of the changes if the book study is amalgamated with the TMS
by truthseeker inwe're pretty sure what will happen next week but not why.. this thread is just for a list of changes that will affect those who still go.. .
1) no more private book study arrangements.
the book study host will ask themselves "why?".
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Help reform the crumbling tower with your bright ideas
by JH inlets say that the watchtower approached you to help them be more successful, so that more people join and be happier jw's.. what would you suggest?.
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botheyesopen
end disfellowshipping. it is a psychological tool invoked by christianity to replace stoning (and applied to all of the capital offenses of judaism) due to the fact that they were now international and could no longer simply kill (moses style) those who disagree. but for thinking people it immediately raises suspicion that one's belief is not the truth. (why else would one need to protect himself from the arguments of those who disagree?) it is a practice that, by its very intent, exposes the weaknesses of the very beliefs it is designed to protect.======= however...
the problem with my ideas is the same as the problem with the other ideas on this post (other than the ones that say "destroy it"): the bible supports their position. if one is not open to the POSSIBILITY that the bible isn't what it has been put forth to be, then one is invariably going to be sucked back into "witness thinking". disfellowshipping is scriptural. so is slavery, misogyny, and genocide. if we want to live by the bible, we cannot condemn hitler for what he did (moses did the same thing, slightly worse). i know many of us are trying not to "throw out the baby with the bathwater", but in this case the baby is dead, or perhaps dying with a highly contagious disease that affects the mind. am i beginning to rant again? -
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Methods for Unlocking Cult Mind Control in Witnesses- By Steve Hassan
by flipper inhello my friends.
just wanted to share with you some of these main points in the chapter called " unlocking cult mind control" in steve hassan's book " combatting cult mind control" as i'm getting to the part in the book of putting into action how to help people , witnesses or any other mind controlled member of a cult to get out and escape to gain their freedom of thought back again.
so thought you might like it !
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botheyesopen
worldtraveller (and flipper)- i've found, in harmony with the advice by mr hassan and others, that it is often more powerful to use the "burden of proof" approach in a soft way, similar to a post i read recently on this forum which said, "i'm really confused about something; can you help me to understand it?" (which is to be found in the old family book btw where it teaches husbands how to talk to their wives...) ---- this approach will ultimately place the other person in the position of having to make the case for their position. in the case of your (hopefully future) friend, you'd be asking him to help you to understand not so much why he did something unethical toward you, but why his belief system is so flexible on the subject of honesty. "how is it wrong for you to lie but ok for you to ask me to lie? isn't the problem with lying the fact that it uses falsehood to circumvent righteousness for the benefit of the liar? how is this different?" ---- similar approaches can work for flipper's daughters, and he's probably done it already: "girls- i'd love to believe what you believe because it would make us closer, and i see the closeness that comes from agreeing on these things... but i have trouble getting past a couple of questions, and no one has been able to answer them for me.." --- true story: eleven years ago, my cousin and his wife, both doctors, were having a nice conversation with me about the blood issue. i am experienced with the issue and have never had a problem talking shop with doctors about it. and indeed, he and his wife could not argue the medical side of things with me. but then he said something that hit me: "i hear what you're saying, but i just can't get my mind to accept the idea that god would want me to let my son die in that situation." what he said laid a time bomb: i could see making the leap of faith for myself, but not for someone else (like a child who may some day disagree with my faith). ten years later i was free. "cast your bread upon the waters (carefully though, like flipper is saying), for in the course of many days you will find it again.." (eccl 11:1) i hope this helps.
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Interesting thing happened today with my father the PO.....
by oneairhead inmy father and i had lunch at a local restaurant.
before we eat we always pray.
before we were about to leave a man comes up to our table.
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botheyesopen
i'm of a similary mind to nathan natas (love the knorr pic) on this, although i wouldn't frame it necessarily as "fear" of people; perhaps it's better called "social etiquette awareness". i hope you're considering the possibility that your dad simply felt uncomfortable trying to persuade an emotionally driven person (actually a leader) from his position, or perhaps that he didn't feel like ruining his lunch with you.. those of us who have our doubts often start out by simply becoming reasonable, and this situation looks more like that than it does like a fearful retreat from a potentially strong adversary. isn't it possible that he's strong enough to argue effectively but doesn't feel like it - perhaps because of some deep-seated doubts about the whole thing? i can still easily show the baptist preacher why political neutrality is the christian position, or that his triune god-concept is yet to overcome the fact that jesus publicly disagreed with jehovah but acquiesced to his (differing) will, among many, many other points of doctrine. i doubt your father became an elder (let alone PO) without that same ability. perhaps your father has felt, at a fundamental level, that what his group believes isn't right with reality.. ---(ps: does anyone know how to make line breaks? do i have to do a "/b" or some html thing??)----- one more thing: i'm sorry if i'm offending those who have become christians of another sort. i don't want to disrupt anyone's religious bliss or happiness; i'm just keenly aware of the kind of thinking that led to my becoming a witness and i hope those who have become freed from one form of mental captivity are not falling into another by that same type of thinking...
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Having a guilty conscience and maybe I should go back to JW
by hambeak ini have read the new wt and am thinking of going back.
i believe a lot of the teachings and i see what is going on .
i just feel a lot of confusion right now.
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botheyesopen
i'm not going to try to push you either way, but i'll ask you to consider a few basic questions before making your decision: 1. do you value the association more than you value truth?--------- 2. when you left, did you only question some practices and beliefs or did you question the fundamental assumption that "god" has communicated with humans through the bible and continues to communicate through an organization?------------ 3. have you accepted the kool-aid that essentially says "you are morally obligated to accept our information as having come from god"?------- this last one is a doozy. it functions like a room whose doors open only from the outside. if you at some point made an emotional connection between accepting the "voice" of the society as having moral or spiritual authority, it's extremely difficult to see any other option than to obey them. (this by the way indicates that you are probably a very nice, "sheeplike" individual.) the problem is that if they were dead wrong you would have no way to see it. your psychological submission to their authority, still very much alive in your mind, would prevent you from realizing that you were incorrect.---------- try this (if you want): read numbers 31 and ask yourself, do i find it plausible that god would authorize this? if you do, you should realize that you're in serious psychological trouble. think about it: you'd be saying that it makes sense to you that god inspired moses to first order a genocide, then send the soldiers back to kill the women and children BUT to save the hot girls who were still virgins so that the soldiers could have some fun. you'd be saying that the idea that this passage came from MEN is not reasonable, and that it makes more sense to you that this passage came from a being OF HIGHER MORAL AUTHORITY. ----------- if you need more, read deuteronomy 13:6-13, where believers are told BY MOSES (allegedly directly from god - and remember that the law is the only part of the bible claimed to have been DIRECTLY authored by god) to EXECUTE those who question the beliefs - including the believer's wife, husband, child, friend, mother, father, etc. for NOT BELIEVING!!!! ask self: do i really believe that this age-old reinforcement technique (of killing those who question) is from our moral authority? i've ruled out the idea that this is from the men who were in charge?----- if you still need more, read exodus (which authorizes slavery, instructs believers on how to trick fellow believers into becoming slaves for life, and instructs on how to sell your daughter as a sex slave-- among other genocides and atrocities directly attributed to god).-------- if you still feel guilty for not feeling right with their beliefs, i'd suggest that you try (with the help of a good therapist) to figure out what it is that is so attractive about this set of beliefs that you're willing to bend reason to the extent that you are bending it. remember, according to exodus, jehovah killed millions of innocent egyptian babies to make a point to pharoah THAT HE KNEW PHAROAH WOULDN'T APPRECIATE ANYWAY. according to the watchtower, god did it to prove that he was stronger than the corresponding egyptian god of fertility. so the highest moral authority in the universe kills innocent babies to prove that he is stronger than the other (scripturally very real) gods. if you find this idea of morality appealing, either you're THAT morally screwed up OR (more likely) you're having trouble letting go of some part of the belief... please feel free to send me a message if you'd like to reason on this together. i'll make the time, but if you really want to go back i'll respect it.
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HOLY SPIRIT CONVERSATION STOPPERS...
by Confession ini just posted this on another thread, but thought i'd give it its own.
i hope some of the language is not offensive to anyone.. ----------------------------.
holy spirit conversations stoppers.... if someone asks why certain decisions are made in the congregation, perhaps you could say.... "jehovah's holy spirit is "guding and directing" the body of elders.".
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botheyesopen
sorry about that long paragraph - still figuring out how to use this system.. hopefully got it now.
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HOLY SPIRIT CONVERSATION STOPPERS...
by Confession ini just posted this on another thread, but thought i'd give it its own.
i hope some of the language is not offensive to anyone.. ----------------------------.
holy spirit conversations stoppers.... if someone asks why certain decisions are made in the congregation, perhaps you could say.... "jehovah's holy spirit is "guding and directing" the body of elders.".
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botheyesopen
a month before i resigned as an elder, i had the conversation with a few friends who had been shocked by the report of a bethel elder pedophile. in the process i found a pretty good 3-step approach to this issue. i'm new to the forum so please be patient if i say things all of you already know backwards and forwards.. i used an example of someone i know well who had sexually abused all three of his daughters (and "god knows" who else) BEFORE being appointed presiding overseer and serving as an elder for years. (one killed herself after staying drunk for 20 years, another is now df'd for, you guessed it, immorality, and the third one is a beautiful, smart, spiritually-minded 400-pound girl who can't figure out why she can't control her appetite.) knowing the family personally helped me to make the case, as did being an elder at the time, for the group of friends would surely have labeled the story exaggerated or apocryphal had i not been able to confirm the details first-hand. but i believe the logic is good, and here it is: 1. if the holy spirit does ANYTHING AT ALL, it would be to protect the process of appointments of elders. what could be more important than protecting the sheep under their care, especially children who will be taught by their parents and at meetings to trust these men and give them "double honor"? and if ANYTHING falls under the jurisdiction of holy spirit, this would be it. we cannot claim that god saw fit to not interfere in the affairs of this world. this is at the heart of the christian congregation and the bible writer claims that god is directly involved in the process. 2. it would be INCREDIBLY EASY for the holy spirit to reveal something evil on the part of a brother recommended for appointment. (it would require nothing more than for a witness to chance upon the man in the act, or perhaps the holy spirit could have strengthened a victim to speak out.) consider the fact that whenever ANYTHING like this is brought to light, credit is immediately given to god or the holy spirit. when brothers or sisters are busted for smoking or having an extramarital affair, all believe that the event was uncovered by god's spirit, and this view is scriptural. (Proverbs 26:24-26; Hebrews 4:13; 1 Cor 2:10; etc.. hell, Eccl 10:20 even says that a little bird will tell the matter!) 3. if holy spirit did NOTHING to prevent the placing of a predator in the capacity of overseer to his intended prey, then in what way are elders "appointed by holy spirit"? the answer was plain to all: the only thing that can be claimed along these lines is the idea that the principles found at 1 Tim and Titus are in the bible and thus are considered to be a product of holy spirit, so - in theory - elders who recommend others for appointment are following "spirit-produced" guidelines. next question: if the holy spirit does not have an ACTIVE ROLE in these situations, how can we believe it is active in obviously less important ones? (i'll try to keep future postings shorter)