Posts by Greenpalmtreestillmine

251

Is Jesus Christ and Michael the ArchAngel one and the same person?

by booker-t in

i must admit that as a jw i never really swallowed this belief maybe because i was so young when i was really a staunch jw.

i would have born-again christians tell me that it was impossible for jesus and michael to be the same person and that jw's invented this doctrine.

fast forward to 2004 while i was reading a book on jesus i noticed that some of the early church fathers thought michael was jesus christ i almost fell out of my chair.

Greenpalmtreestillmine

Kenneson,

If Michael was Christ before coming to earth then he was Michael when on earth and Michael when he went back to the Father. You can't have Michael living in heaven and Christ simultaneously living on earth because that makes two persons, not one. Whereas angels in the Old Testament appear to materialize, this is not what happened to the Christ as Scriptures say he was born of a woman. Gal. 4:4

What I meant was that the name Michael was I believe the name of Jesus before coming to the earth. Of course they are not two persons. For those who do not believe in the Trinity, like myself, Jesus had a life in the heavens in a spirit body before coming here, as all God's heavenly sons have also. Was God's firstborn heavenly Son's name, Jesus, meaning God Saves, prior to his coming to earth? Maybe some believe that I don't know. I just happen to believe his name was Michael.

Sabrina

25

Raphael and Jesus

by peacefulpete in

randel helms in gospel fictions has surmised that the story of jesus' appearance to mary at the tomb is dependent upon the raphael story in tobit.

at tobit 5-12 the character encounters the archangel raphael yet does not recognize him as such.

when he identifies himself, the human characters (tobias and wife) fall upon their faces.

Greenpalmtreestillmine

The word "touch" in John 20:17 can also mean: "to fasten one's self to, adhere to, cling to"

The NASB: "Jesus said to her, 'Stop clinging to me, for I have not yet ascended to the Father..."

The NRSV "Jesus said to her, "Do not hold on to me, because I have not yet ascended to the Father."

The NJB "Jesus said to her, 'Do not cling to me, becasue I have not yet ascended to the Father."

The NKJV "Jesus said to her, 'Do not cling to me, for I have not yet ascended to My Father."

Mary's realization that her Lord was risen and standing right in front of her would not result in her simply "touching" him as Thomas was allowed to do. But rather in her emotional state of wonder and joy she most likely attempted to grasp on to him, to cling to him, to hold on to him. It was this action of holding on to him that would have prompted the admonition not to cling to him for he had not yet ascended to the Father.

Sabrina

251

Is Jesus Christ and Michael the ArchAngel one and the same person?

by booker-t in

i must admit that as a jw i never really swallowed this belief maybe because i was so young when i was really a staunch jw.

i would have born-again christians tell me that it was impossible for jesus and michael to be the same person and that jw's invented this doctrine.

fast forward to 2004 while i was reading a book on jesus i noticed that some of the early church fathers thought michael was jesus christ i almost fell out of my chair.

Greenpalmtreestillmine

Will Power,

I don't believe the word Lord in that scripture refers to Jehovah. I'm an exWitness.

LT,

Thanks, I appreciate your comments. I hope you know I'm not trying to convince anyone of anything just trying to explain why I believe as I do.

Ellderwho,

Colossians 1:15 says about the Christ, "He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation." NASB

Sabrina

251

Is Jesus Christ and Michael the ArchAngel one and the same person?

by booker-t in

i must admit that as a jw i never really swallowed this belief maybe because i was so young when i was really a staunch jw.

i would have born-again christians tell me that it was impossible for jesus and michael to be the same person and that jw's invented this doctrine.

fast forward to 2004 while i was reading a book on jesus i noticed that some of the early church fathers thought michael was jesus christ i almost fell out of my chair.

Greenpalmtreestillmine

A list of the things Michael is said to do:

He is the only one who stands firm with Gabriel and helps him: "Yet there is no one who stands firmly with me against these {forces} except Michael your prince." Daniel 10:13, 21

He arises in a time of distress such as has never been before, likely the time of the end: "Now at that time Michael, the great prince who stands {guard} over the sons of your people, will arise. And there will be a time of distress such as never occurred since there was a nation until that time; and at that time your people, everyone who is found written in the book, will be rescued." Daniel 12

He disputed with the Devil over Moses' body: "But Michael the archangel, when he disputed with the devil and argued about the body of Moses, did not dare pronounce against him a railing judgment, but said, "The Lord rebuke you!" Jude 9

He and his angels throw Satan out of heaven: "And there was war in heaven, Michael and his angels waging war with the dragon. The dragon and his angels waged war," Revelation 12

Christ descends with his voice: "For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of {the} archangel and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first." 1 Thessalonians 4:16

If we believe the Christ is God, one third of a Trinity, then he cannot be Michael. (Though some Trinitarians do argue that he is so I leave it open.)

But if we believe the Christ to be the Son of God, his first born creation but not a part of a Trinity Godhead, then to me it seems reasonable to conclude that Michael may just be the Christ prior to his coming to earth as a man.

Sabrina

25

Raphael and Jesus

by peacefulpete in

randel helms in gospel fictions has surmised that the story of jesus' appearance to mary at the tomb is dependent upon the raphael story in tobit.

at tobit 5-12 the character encounters the archangel raphael yet does not recognize him as such.

when he identifies himself, the human characters (tobias and wife) fall upon their faces.

Greenpalmtreestillmine

This may make sense of the comment in John that Jesus did not want to be touched by Mary. He was like Raphael in being only ethereal.

Then why did Jesus say to Thomas, "Put your finger here and see my hands. Reach out your hand and put it in my side," if he was "only ethereal?"

Sabrina

18

Jesus Married?

by sandy in

.

i am curious: any here believe that jesus could have been married to mary magdalene?

.

Greenpalmtreestillmine

Jesus has 12 male disciples and some accuse him of being gay.

He has female disciples and some accuse him of being married or a fornicator.

Neither is supported by the Bible.

Sabrina

31

The Cross and the Passover

by Greenpalmtreestillmine in

the cross and the passover have a connection not ususally noticed.

exodus 12:22, "and you shall take a bunch of hyssop, and dip it in the blood that is in the basin, and strike the lintel and the two doorposts with the blood that is in the basin....".

the blood of the passover lamb was splashed upon the two doorposts and the lintel, it marked three places on the wooden doorway.. the blood of the christ also marked three places on the wooden cross.

Greenpalmtreestillmine

Narkissos,

Every generation among the Church Fathers and Doctors came up with OT-NT connections that the previous generations hadn't made. But all were using the same kind of approach.

That does not belie the fact that the Gospel writers, men who are by some accused of dishonestly using the OT to confirm their supposedly false accounts, did not inlude all the significant similarities or connections in their writings. They apparently did not do a good job of finding all the "false" similarities they could have. This from Jews, mind you, men who knew the OT backwards and forwards.

I respectfully submit: you are attempting to obfuscate the fact that they did not go willy-nilly haunting about the OT for false evidence. If they had they would have included the blood/doorpost/cross and other significant evidences to their supposed false story.

Sabrina

31

The Cross and the Passover

by Greenpalmtreestillmine in

the cross and the passover have a connection not ususally noticed.

exodus 12:22, "and you shall take a bunch of hyssop, and dip it in the blood that is in the basin, and strike the lintel and the two doorposts with the blood that is in the basin....".

the blood of the passover lamb was splashed upon the two doorposts and the lintel, it marked three places on the wooden doorway.. the blood of the christ also marked three places on the wooden cross.

Greenpalmtreestillmine

Narkissos,

Actually the way you build up your own suggestion is quite similar to the Gospel pattern of writing: with the general Passover typology in mind, you naturally come to associate the lamb's blood on the wooden doorpost to Jesus' blood on the wooden cross. This leads you (1) to add the narrative detail explicitly ("the cross was stained on three spots") and (2) to make the Passover connection explicit ("as the blood of the lamb...").

You make it seem as if it's somehow not honest or wrong to look at things from a personal viewpoint and to come to natural conclusions based on that veiwpoint. The U.S. is politically divided because based on their personal viewpoints Americans came to different natural conclusions about whether or not President Bush should be the Commander and Chief for another 4 years. .

Our personal political views color our political conclusions, but that in itself does not make every conclusion we come to either right or wrong.

Our personal views on the Bible also color our conclusions about that book, but that also in itself does not make every conclusion we come to with regard to the Bible either right or wrong.

If there is some mention of the blood/doorposts/cross similarity in early Christian literature, I am not aware of it. But as you say there could very well be one somewhere. But the fact that it is not in the Bible reveals that the notion of the Gospel writers searching throughout the OT to retrieve any details they could use to support their writings, is to say the least, suspect.

Truth is rarely black and white.

Sabrina

1

Sleepless In Seattle

by Greenpalmtreestillmine in

jw
friends

i'm listening to the soundtrack of this movie.

sorry for posting a wasted post just so love this movie and its music!.

"pack up all my cares and woes and here i go!

Greenpalmtreestillmine

I'm listening to the soundtrack of this movie. So...................Good!

Sorry for posting a wasted post just so love this movie and its music!

"Pack up all my cares and woes and here I go! Where somebody waits for me. Bye, Bye blackbird."

Sabrina in love.

31

The Cross and the Passover

by Greenpalmtreestillmine in

the cross and the passover have a connection not ususally noticed.

exodus 12:22, "and you shall take a bunch of hyssop, and dip it in the blood that is in the basin, and strike the lintel and the two doorposts with the blood that is in the basin....".

the blood of the passover lamb was splashed upon the two doorposts and the lintel, it marked three places on the wooden doorway.. the blood of the christ also marked three places on the wooden cross.

Greenpalmtreestillmine

Narkissos,

Another possible (and to me very likely) scenario:
(1) The passion narrative is essentially made up of OT material in the first place (as is obvious in Mark).
(2) The later rewritings of the story (Matthew or John) actually quote or directly refer to the underlying OT text as "prophecies fulfilled".
The material which was used to create the story will later be used again to confirm it...

Are you saying the NT records the similarity between the blood on the cross and the blood on the doorways of the Jews in Egypt during the Passover? Perhaps you could provide the quote for me. If you do not have a quote then you are mistaken in your assumptions with regard to my original post. Sabrina

Every generation among the Church Fathers and Doctors came up with OT-NT connections that the previous generations hadn't made. But all were using the same kind of approach.