Posts by Greenpalmtreestillmine

290

The Global Flood

by coldfish in

i've just read an intersting article on the flood to do with dates and whether is was truly global or a regional flood.. http://www.commentarypress.com/essay-flood.html.

my father used to be an elder for many years and the flood was one of the things that made him walk away not just from the jw but also belief in the bible.

he was hung up on issues like the flood taking place about 3500 bc and how that fit in with the pyramids.. i don't know much about egyptian history or the ages of the big pyramids, but his reasoning was if the flood wiped out every human on earth except noah etc then at 3500 bc there were only 8 people on earth.

Greenpalmtreestillmine

Norm,

Sabrina,

You totally avoided to answer my question. Here it is again:

Do you really claim that Christendom (the Bible) isn't making the claim to be the only true religion in the world? If it isn't, why then did Jesus send out missionaries to convert everybody to Christendom?"
Why can't you answer this simple question Sabrina?

I did answer the question Norm. But unlike you I will not question your reading skills or instruct you to go and read my answer again. If you think I didn't answer, fine, it's not that important to me Norm.

Then you said: "totally disagree with the perspective you present here. The reason being that it takes no account of the actual message that the biblical Jesus presented. If he had said go out and preach a doctrine of intolerance, then you might have a point, but I'm sorry - I just dont read it that way

. Sorry Norm, you are confusing me with another poster. I did not write what you quoted above. But again I will neither question your reading skills nor accuse you of lying. You simply make a mistake just like we all do.

If your future life is dependent upon if you accept the gospel. Say if you refuse to accept it what would happen to you then, Sabrina? Would Jesus say, "aw that's allright, your religion is as good as mine"? Or will it be something like this?
"...the Lord Jesus from heaven with his powerful angels in a flaming fire, as he brings vengeance upon those who do not know God and those who do not obey the good news about our Lord Jesus.(2 Thess. 1:6-8)"

(2 Peter 3:8-9) . . .. 9 Jehovah is not slow respecting his promise, as some people consider slowness, but he is patient with YOU because he does not desire any to be destroyed but desires all to attain to repentance.

Your comments above are in reference to another poster's comment. I leave it to you to find him and deliver your questions to him directly.

I must say that I have rarely seen a better example of selctive Bible reading,

Yes, I even selectively chose not to read your entire post.

several of you seem to be extremely picky about which Bible texts to "believe in" and which to ignore.

Norm, think what you like. But it is rather strange for a man who does not believe anything in the Bible to accuse others of only believing parts of it. You have no idea what I believe Norm. I attempted to answer your questions to the best of my ability. If that was not good enough Norm, I don't care. I don't care Norm because your aim is to destroy not to build or to understand one another. Under those circumstances there is no reason to discuss anything or to care.

Creating one's own version of a religion based on some selected Bible texts is understandable.

I have not created a version of any religion Norm. You keep going on and on about what Norm? That we disagree. True. That I believe something which you do not believe. True. That you insist on being proven right or at the very least proving Christians wrong? True.

Let me help you with that, Norm......You Are Right About Everything Norm! The Bible is trash and Christians are morons.

I understand fully well all that you don't want to deal with the bigotted nasty, arrogant parts of scripture. But they are there. When it comes to you Sabrina, you seem to have a particular talent for avoiding them.

No, Norm. You see, to remain a Christian after leaving the Witnesses I had to confront the same demons that all exJWs must confront including disbelief in the Bible and other spiritual questions. I have faced all the problems and all the scriptures and all the hurts Norm. You are an accusatory person. And worse you wantonly throw about false accusations like the one quoted above. It kills you not be right Norm. So let me not be the one to add to your pain. Again I will say: You Are Right Norm. The Bible is trash and Christians are morons. Oh, and your reading skills are unparalled!! Addendum: Norm, you said this to LT:

Do the Bible claim that Christendom is the only true religion or not? Why is that so hard to answer?
It's like pulling teeth with you guys here.

In my post, the one you declared did not answer your questions properly, I said this with regard to that same question: "As for Jesus claiming to point the way, the only way; yes, of course he did."
I guess you did not understand what I wrote. If I though were to reply to you in the same arrogant manner you have replied to me on this thread I would then say this to you: "Norm, I'm going to try and explain this to you as plainly as I possibly can. You see, when I said that Jesus claimed to point to the way, the only way; that meant Norm that Jesus was claiming to worship God in the only true way. This in turn means the NT also makes that claim. And, Norm, just so that you completely understand where I am coming from. The fact that I claim to be Christian means that others may also safely assume that I myself feel that Jesus was the Messiah and thus eventually will in the future be the Savior of the world. Not Budha, not Mohammed, not anyone else only Jesus. Those others may have been fine sincere people but if I thought they had the right way, the only way, then I would be a Budhist or a Muslim. Do you understand now Norm? "Now, Norm, you may complain to me and say: 'but you didn't use the word religion, I asked about religion not ways, why didn't you use the word religion? ' "Well, Norm, because. Because I was trying to make it as simple and plain as I could. Look up the meaning of the word religion Norm and read what Jesus said about the way and write a well thought out post with what you find. Okay?" But, I myself, would not have written that kind of reply. Sabrina

290

The Global Flood

by coldfish in

i've just read an intersting article on the flood to do with dates and whether is was truly global or a regional flood.. http://www.commentarypress.com/essay-flood.html.

my father used to be an elder for many years and the flood was one of the things that made him walk away not just from the jw but also belief in the bible.

he was hung up on issues like the flood taking place about 3500 bc and how that fit in with the pyramids.. i don't know much about egyptian history or the ages of the big pyramids, but his reasoning was if the flood wiped out every human on earth except noah etc then at 3500 bc there were only 8 people on earth.

Greenpalmtreestillmine

Hi Frankiespeakin,

You're right of course, any Christian who posts an opinion here should rightly expect to be questioned about it. What I was objecting to was not the disagreement but rather the ridicule that so often comes with it when exJW Christians post an opinion. I don't mind discussing and answering questions but ridicule of someones intelligence or beliefs is not discussion it is veiled aggression. That is what I object to. It is much easier to play the batter role and hit the ball across the field and start running than it is to play the outfielder role and run to catch that ball and then attempt to get it back to Home plate before a run comes in.

Answering questions that come from everywhere and from various angles is like trying to catch that ball. Sometimes we can't catch it, but that does not mean we are stupid, or evaders or less intelligent. It only means we failed to catch that particular ball. Here exJW Christians are expected to catch every ball, every time it's thrown. We simply cannot do it. If to others that translates into evidence that our beliefs are wrong then so be it. But even so, I believe we should at least be accorded some dignity and not have our intelligence ridiculed just because we still believe.

Here's hoping you have a Great New Year!

Sabrina

290

The Global Flood

by coldfish in

i've just read an intersting article on the flood to do with dates and whether is was truly global or a regional flood.. http://www.commentarypress.com/essay-flood.html.

my father used to be an elder for many years and the flood was one of the things that made him walk away not just from the jw but also belief in the bible.

he was hung up on issues like the flood taking place about 3500 bc and how that fit in with the pyramids.. i don't know much about egyptian history or the ages of the big pyramids, but his reasoning was if the flood wiped out every human on earth except noah etc then at 3500 bc there were only 8 people on earth.

Greenpalmtreestillmine

Hi AlanF,

I think you're missing the point: the critics I've seen post on this thread are not calling on Christians to be tolerant. They're pointing out that the claim by certain Christian apologists that the Christian faith is inherently tolerant is wrong. I've reread pages 4-7 of this thread and I see nothing that would support your claim that, by some unspecified posters, "Christians are called on to be tolerant". This is a good example of what can produce frustration in us critics: you somehow invented a claim that was never made (i.e., "Christians are called on to be tolerant ..."), and then implied that the people doing the calling are hypocrites, further implying that all critics are hypocrites. Perhaps that's not what you really meant, but it certainly reads that way to me.

You're right I worded that poorly but not because I was trying to invent something. That was simply how I felt after Norm's post claiming that Christianity's claim to be the only true religion automatically made it intolerant. I tried to show that was not the case with all churches and all Christians. But when someone, Christian or non-Christian, wants to prove a point or insists on defending a position no amount of proof or discussion will make a difference. He and I will always disagree on that point. No big deal though. Neither of us is above being wrong, well, I know I'm not.

Yet, while I agree that my wording was poor and you're right no one has "called" for Christians to be more tolerant I do believe that a great intolerance towards exJW Christians exists here. Yet, AlanF, we too have left the Watchtower and we too have suffered just like everyone else here. Is it really so bad that we still believe?

I understand the preaching aversions I feel the same way. I do not like to be preached to especially by some who feel they have a direct connection to God etc. But that is very different from merely discussing a Biblical event like the flood. "A Christian" did not start this thread, he merely posted his thoughts on it. Yet, AlanF, I must say he was treated by some as if he were a rabid dog. So people disagree with him, okay, that's fine. But why the ridicule and all that?

Superior attitudes and arrogant words are I suppose today the right of those who have become Bible critics? Okay, that's fine. But don't expect the target to continue to stick around for target practice. You mentioned no Christian responded to one of your posts. I got half way through a response to it until I realized it serves no purpose to so when all some people are looking for is a fault for taget practice not a genuine discussion. These discussions sometimes become, as you say, in part just a game. Well, for me, it is not a game.

If you and others want to war with Christianity please go to it! God knows there are many filthy hypocrites and false brothers there. I wish you well in your quest. But to war for wars sake or to destroy anothers faith to save him is serious business. The GB thought they knew better than us and we followed. If you think you have found a better way and know better than Christians that's fine but that is your way, not mine. That is your belief, not mine. That is your stand, not mine. Please allow exJW Christians the dignity of their own mind and conscience by simply treating them as you would anyone else not as something to be shot at and changed towards what you believe is a better way. We did that enough as JWs don't you think?

Sabrina

290

The Global Flood

by coldfish in

i've just read an intersting article on the flood to do with dates and whether is was truly global or a regional flood.. http://www.commentarypress.com/essay-flood.html.

my father used to be an elder for many years and the flood was one of the things that made him walk away not just from the jw but also belief in the bible.

he was hung up on issues like the flood taking place about 3500 bc and how that fit in with the pyramids.. i don't know much about egyptian history or the ages of the big pyramids, but his reasoning was if the flood wiped out every human on earth except noah etc then at 3500 bc there were only 8 people on earth.

Greenpalmtreestillmine

AlanF,

That may be, but the general point still stands: it's self-defeating to defend God on any point whatsoever by means of lies and deceit. Do you not agree?

Yes, I do.

: Many agnostic/atheist apologists do the same. Do what, exactly? Lie and deceive in order to put God down? Or what? And for what motive?

I wrote: "They really had no interest in defending God so much as putting down Job." Based on many responses and reactions on this board towards Christians, yes, I believe many agnostics and atheists are more interested in finding fault with Christians than in defending God or sometimes even truth. But do they lie? No not intentionally. I do believe however some are very willing to stretch the truth or the text in order to prove their point. But many Christians do that also.

Do you think, from my posts in this thread, that I've attempted to deceive anyone? Note that I'm an agnostic.

No. Let me ask you a question: Do you think it is possible to have a discussion with a Christian that does not involve personal insults or "poor reading comprehension" aspersions, or ridicule tossed from either side? Can agnostics and atheists who call out that Christianity is intolerant have enough tolerance themselves to respect another person's religious beliefs? It's funny how Christians are called on to be tolerant by the very people who have shown themselves to be very intolerant of the Christian faith.

Have a Happy New Year, AlanF!

Sabrina

290

The Global Flood

by coldfish in

i've just read an intersting article on the flood to do with dates and whether is was truly global or a regional flood.. http://www.commentarypress.com/essay-flood.html.

my father used to be an elder for many years and the flood was one of the things that made him walk away not just from the jw but also belief in the bible.

he was hung up on issues like the flood taking place about 3500 bc and how that fit in with the pyramids.. i don't know much about egyptian history or the ages of the big pyramids, but his reasoning was if the flood wiped out every human on earth except noah etc then at 3500 bc there were only 8 people on earth.

Greenpalmtreestillmine

One,

I'll just say this for now because it applies to both.

I do not believe the OT was ever meant to be a perfect representation of ancient historical events. I believe the OT contains truth, prophetic allegory, direct prophecies, wise sayings and songs; all having their purpose. I believe the flood account, what for us would be a local event compared to the rest of the earth, was to the inhabitants of that area so comprehensive that for them it was the whole earth. Similar to the terrible Tsunami of this past weekend, for that area of the world their whole world was changed in a moment. If they had had no communications with other peoples and had not traveled outside of their area on earth, it would have seemed to them that the ocean had come up upon the whole earth. And for them; it did!

But the fact that the flood was a local event does not in any way take away from it's use as a prophetic picture of the whole earth. Just as Jesus used it in the NT. Fundamentalists do the Bible a great disservice when they claim the OT is to be understood literally.

Have a happy New Year!!

Sabrina

290

The Global Flood

by coldfish in

i've just read an intersting article on the flood to do with dates and whether is was truly global or a regional flood.. http://www.commentarypress.com/essay-flood.html.

my father used to be an elder for many years and the flood was one of the things that made him walk away not just from the jw but also belief in the bible.

he was hung up on issues like the flood taking place about 3500 bc and how that fit in with the pyramids.. i don't know much about egyptian history or the ages of the big pyramids, but his reasoning was if the flood wiped out every human on earth except noah etc then at 3500 bc there were only 8 people on earth.

Greenpalmtreestillmine

One,

Are you asking why I believe the transmitters of the flood account thought it was a global one? Or are you asking why I believe the Bible in general?

Sabrina

290

The Global Flood

by coldfish in

i've just read an intersting article on the flood to do with dates and whether is was truly global or a regional flood.. http://www.commentarypress.com/essay-flood.html.

my father used to be an elder for many years and the flood was one of the things that made him walk away not just from the jw but also belief in the bible.

he was hung up on issues like the flood taking place about 3500 bc and how that fit in with the pyramids.. i don't know much about egyptian history or the ages of the big pyramids, but his reasoning was if the flood wiped out every human on earth except noah etc then at 3500 bc there were only 8 people on earth.

Greenpalmtreestillmine

Narkissos,

Job felt sorry for himself and exalted his own righteousness. His friends stepped in and by their insistence that Job must have done something wrong to incur God's punishment they unintentionally encouraged him to declare again and again his own righteousness. Bildad in 8: "If your children sinned against him, he delivered them into the power of their transgression." Wrong conclusions. Elihu was critical of both them and Job.

As you say in 42 God rebuked his three friends: "After the LORD had spoken these words to Job, the LORD said to Elipahz the Temanite: 'My wrath is kindled against you and against your two friends; for you have not spoken of me what is right, as my servant Job has. Now therefore take seven bulls and seven rams, and go to my servant Job, and offer up for yourselves a burnt offering; and my servant Job shall pray for you, for I will accept his prayer not to deal with you according to your folly; for you have not spoken of me what is right, as my servant Job had done."

Lesson imo: We should neither think we know the mind of God, as the three friends claimed, nor think our rightousness is in some way greater than God's as Job came to feel nor think that everything that happens in life is caused by God. God condemned them all but favored Job. Job suffered much but in all that he suffered he did not leave his God. His friends made it much harder for him and their continued rebuke of him was imo not loving at all but rather self glorifying. They loved so many words, as Job said, "How long will you torment me, and break me in pieces with words?", but in the end all they had to say was in effect: "Look Job you and your kids must have gotten what you deserved." They misrepresented God. And they caused Job to feel he must declare his own righteouness even more loudly thereby adding to his own wayward course.

Friends like these are best kept far off. JMO.

Happy New Year to you!

Sabrina

290

The Global Flood

by coldfish in

i've just read an intersting article on the flood to do with dates and whether is was truly global or a regional flood.. http://www.commentarypress.com/essay-flood.html.

my father used to be an elder for many years and the flood was one of the things that made him walk away not just from the jw but also belief in the bible.

he was hung up on issues like the flood taking place about 3500 bc and how that fit in with the pyramids.. i don't know much about egyptian history or the ages of the big pyramids, but his reasoning was if the flood wiped out every human on earth except noah etc then at 3500 bc there were only 8 people on earth.

Greenpalmtreestillmine

One,

Does the Cristian message about the flood, as presented in the "scriptures" reveal an understanding of a global flood by the writers?.

Yes, I believe those that transmitted the flood material to later generations thought it is encompassed what was for them the whole earth.

Sabrina

290

The Global Flood

by coldfish in

i've just read an intersting article on the flood to do with dates and whether is was truly global or a regional flood.. http://www.commentarypress.com/essay-flood.html.

my father used to be an elder for many years and the flood was one of the things that made him walk away not just from the jw but also belief in the bible.

he was hung up on issues like the flood taking place about 3500 bc and how that fit in with the pyramids.. i don't know much about egyptian history or the ages of the big pyramids, but his reasoning was if the flood wiped out every human on earth except noah etc then at 3500 bc there were only 8 people on earth.

Greenpalmtreestillmine

AlanF wrote:

An excellent passage for would be apologists, Narkissos! It has long been one of my favorites.
Here it is from another translation:
Are you defending God by means of lies and dishonest arguments? You should be impartial witnesses, but will you slant your testimony in his favor? Will you argue God?s case for him? Be careful that he doesn?t find out what you are doing! Or do you think you can fool him as easily as you fool people? No, you will be in serious trouble with him if even in your hearts you slant your testimony in his favor. Doesn?t his majesty strike terror into your heart? Does not your fear of him seize you? Your statements have about as much value as ashes. Your defense is as fragile as a clay pot. (Job 13:7-12; New Living Translation)
It appears to me that God, if he had anything to do with the sentiments expressed, is a lot more interested in honesty than in blind faith -- even blind faith in him.

The setting of that quote is Job's defense against his supposed friends who are in fact trying to convince him that in some way he must have offended God and in so doing has brought calamity upon himself. Zophar said in Job 11:12, "If you direct your heart rightly, you will stretch out your hands toward him. If iniquity is in your hand, put it far away, and do not let wickedness reside in your tents. Surely then you will lift up your face without blemish; you will be secure, and will not fear."

This is why Job answers in chapter 12, "Will you speak falsely for God; and speak deceitfully for him? Will you show partiality toward him, will you plead the case for God?" His so called friends were speaking falsely for God and in actuality were attempting to raise up their own rightousness. They really had no interest in defending God so much as putting down Job. Many agnostic/atheist apologists do the same.

Sabrina

290

The Global Flood

by coldfish in

i've just read an intersting article on the flood to do with dates and whether is was truly global or a regional flood.. http://www.commentarypress.com/essay-flood.html.

my father used to be an elder for many years and the flood was one of the things that made him walk away not just from the jw but also belief in the bible.

he was hung up on issues like the flood taking place about 3500 bc and how that fit in with the pyramids.. i don't know much about egyptian history or the ages of the big pyramids, but his reasoning was if the flood wiped out every human on earth except noah etc then at 3500 bc there were only 8 people on earth.

Greenpalmtreestillmine

Hi Norm,

You wrote:

You seem to misunderstand here, the diversity of Christian churches and Christian sects isn't the
issue. We are talking about the claims the Bible make on behalf of the religion it promotes.
There is only one Bible Sabrina, how different churches, and you interpret it doesn't take away
what is written there.

Norm, we are talking about what you claim the Bible promotes. On the one hand you denigrate Christianity and the Bible and on the other you say that it does not matter how individual Christians and/or Christian churches interpret their own religion. So, it matters not how Christians interpret the NT or the OT? What matters is how you interpret it? Norm, this is a little strange don't you think? That's like me telling a Brit, that it doesn't matter how they interpret their own laws what matters is how I understand them. That would be ridiculous don't you think?

Let me try again. First of all, and I will try to make this as clear as possible.
Do you really claim that Christendom (the Bible) isn't making the claim to be the only true religion
in the world? If it isn't, why then did Jesus send out missionaries to convert everybody to
Christendom?"

Jesus sent out missionaries to convert everybody? No, Norm he did not. Jesus fully recognized there would be those who would love others and do good but not be his spiritual brothers and he called them righteous. Matthew 25:31, "When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the holy angels with him then he will sit on the throne of his glory. All the nations will be gathered before him, and he will separate them one from another, as a shepherd divides his sheep from the goats. And he will set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left. Then the King will say to those on his right had, 'Come, you blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world, for I was hungry and you gave me food; I was thirsty and you gave me drink; I was a stranger and you took me in; I was naked and you clothed me; I was sick and you visited me; I was in prison and you came to me.

"Then the righteous will answer him saying, 'Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you drink: When did we see you a stranger and take you in, or naked and clothe you? Or when did we see you sick, or in prison, and come to you?' And the King will answer and say to them, 'Assuredly, I say to you, inasmuch as you did it to one of the least of these my brethren, you did it to me."

Jesus continually taught that love was the primary requirement and gave the illustration of the Good Samaritan as an example of neighborly love. The sheep in Matthew 25 are not Christ's brothers but they are good people. Certainly, like most good people they did good to others on the basis that it was the right thing to do just like the Good Samaritan did. When they did good to Christ's brothers they did not know they were his brothers because if they had they would not have had to ask Jesus what he was talking about. But they did ask because they are simply good people who have helped others and unknowingly also helped Christ's brothers. Their good heart is not forgotten by the Christ, their good deeds are recognized and rewarded. There are good people in every religion.

As for Jesus claiming to point the way, the only way; yes, of course he did. But many who have in the past (and today) claimed to be his followers have in reality trampled upon his words and have piled up heaps of reproach upon his name with their filthy unloving ways and practices. It is a great mistake to believe all Christian religionists represent the Christ. They do not! Jesus must be allowed to represent himself, he spoke for himself and his words must be allowed to stand or fall on their own not through the words and actions of others.

Now to the next matter related to the above. If Christendom do indeed make the claim to be
the only true religion in the world, it is simply impossible for it to respect other religions.
All other religions automatically becomes false when you make that claim, and thus those religions
is a tool of Satan.

As for respecting other religions I think it should be rephrased to respecting other people no matter what their religion. Jesus did not limit his help to only Jews, he aided others outside of his faith also. Jesus stood for love of God and neighbor not for the zenophobic practices of the Jewish leaders of his day. Unfortunately, today, that same kind poison is still spreading throughout world.

You see Sabrina, you can't have it both ways. All true Christians naturally have an abhorrence and
loathing of false religion, just read the Bible.

I am a Christian, but I do not abhor other religions. Why should I? There are good, kind people in all religions. Most people follow the religious traditions of that part of the world they were born in. Should I loathe the Hindu because he was born in India? Or the Muslim because he was brought up a Muslim? Or the Jew? No. I have no reason to.

As for the Bible's loathing of false religion, please note Norm, many more pages of scripture have been penned against the hypocrisy and falling away of those claiming to be God's people, Jew and Christian alike, than about the religions outside of the Bible's religious scope. The OT is filled with reprimands and condemnations of the ancient Jews, the NT is more concerned with keeping the Christian congregation on track than with condemning the religions of those outside. Count for count, in the Bible, self-criticism far outweighs the condemnation of other religions.

Have a great day and a great year, Norm.

Sabrina