Posts by Greenpalmtreestillmine

22

Warm Shock On A Cold Day

by Sunspot in

jw
friends

for those of you that know my background, you know that my only sibling, a sister (nonjw) disowned me back in the '70s along with my parents when i became a jw.

when i daed myself in '99, i wrote them and apologized for making a terrible mistake, etc and heard nothing.

i just got an email from my sister asking for my address because she wants to write to me, and she signed it "love, your little sis"..

Greenpalmtreestillmine

Great news, Sunspot.

I am very happy for you!!

Sabrina

105

chief rabbi leon ashkenazi said: "the difference between an atheist christian and an atheist jew is that an atheist christian does not believe that god exists, while an atheist jew believes that god does not exist.".

i'm not so sure about the jewish-christian borderline, but i love the nuance.. so which sentence suits you better?.

"i don't believe that god exists.".

Greenpalmtreestillmine

AlanF,

You started out with:

"I believe that the Christian God does not exist, because if he did, he'd be a monster."

You later listed some events you felt proved your point. I said in return:

The context of much of what you are saying involves nation building.

First, let me stop right here. So.... if God does not fit your conception of what he should be then logically he does not exist? If you have judged the Christian God a monster then that is enough for you to believe he does not exist? Does God really have to fit your mold? Are you that certain of your thinking processes that you feel capable of knowing what God should do and when he should do it and how? And if God should fail to meet your standards that in itself proves he does not exist? Are you sure about that?

:: That this God wiped out entire communities of people to allow the Israelites to take over their land. Joshua 6: Shortly after their entering the promised land, God tells the Israelites to kill all humans and animals in Jericho, but to save the silver and gold.

Nation building.

Joshua 8: Shortly after wiping out Jericho, God tells the Israelites to kill all the people of Ai, but to save the animals and other goods for themselves.

Nation building.

:: That this God was perfectly happy to hear the Psalmist write words encouraging Israelites to kill their enemies' babies. Psalm 137:8, 9 (ESV); a lament on the Babylonian captivity: "O daughter of Babylon, doomed to be destroyed, blessed shall he be who repays you with what you have done to us! Blessed shall he be who takes your little ones and dashes them against the rock!"

This is a song of lament. In the West we don't write songs like this or may not express ourselves in this way but I am certain there have been many mothers and fathers in Iraq who after having their children killed either by Saddam or the U.S. government also expressed words similar to these. What kind God do you want? The OT side of God is not good enough, the NT side is apparently not good enough either. If God kills the enemies of his people that's wrong. If God Son, tells us to turn the other cheek and put down the sword then many would complain that if all Christians had strictly followed a pacifist way then Hitler would have won the war. You see....if God fights you say he's wrong. If God does not fight others say he is wrong. Thank God that God is what he is and not as people would have him be.

:: That this God often encouraged the Israelites to kill all the males and nonvirgin females of their enemies, and steal the young virgins. Numbers 31: God tells the Israelites to take vengeance on the Midianites who defended themselves from Israelite aggression by cunning; all except young virgins are killed.

Numbers 31:14, "But Moses was angry with the officers of the army, with the captains over thousands and captains over hundreds, who had come from the battle. And Moses said to them: "Have you kept all the women alive? Look, these women caused the children of Israel, through the counsel of Balaam, to trespass against the LORD in the incident of peor, and there was a plague among the congregation of the LORD. Now therefore, kill every male among the little ones, and kill every woman who has known a man intimately. But keep alive for yourselves all the young girls who have not known a man intimately."

I believe you need to find a better example to support your statement, I'm sure you will. But in Numbers 31, it is Moses who calls for the saving of the virgins not God. Now, here is Moses, he is leading a people from place to place securing the area. What would you have them do? Save the whole population and then tell them, "Okay, we won and we expect you to abide by the rules. He who wins keeps the city and he who loses walks off in a dignified manner and just goes away." Would that have worked? Would you have believed that story? Or, should they have made portable prisons so that these people would then be transported along with the Israelite nation? For the most part land was apportioned according to the male line. The young captured girls could marry into a male line, the young boys and men would have no place in Israel and likely would not want one. The tensions and rivalries between the males, Jews and conquered non-Jew would have made a very difficult and dangerous life even more so for the Jews. They lived in their time not in ours. We cannot judge them by our time. This was war, not the Sermon on the Mount. God made predators did he not? He also made the more timid animals. They both have their place. So do war and peace.

If the Bible record speaks of something unseen today such as miracles etc., it's called fantasy, a made up story. But when the Bible record records a battle wherein, true to the history of its time, men, women and children are killed, it is then faulted for being cruel. What kind of Bible record or God would suit you? Do you want him to fix everything by a snap of his finger? No, of course not. You don't believe in that. Do you want him to get rid of all the evil people in the world by killing them outright? No, of course not, that would be cruel. Should he give his spirit in greater measure so that you and others come to know him? No, you don't believe in that either probably.

:: That this God is petty, jealous and often acts in a way that, if a human did the same things, he'd be viewed as a horrible criminal. Exodus 34:14: "You shall worship no other god, for the LORD, whose name is Jealous, is a jealous God." Genesis 34: God tells Abraham to offer up Isaac as a sacrifice, to test Abraham's faith. A present day leader who told a parent to do anything remotely like that would be denounced as a monstrous criminal in the court of world opinion.

Exodus 34:14 could take whole threads to discuss but the short of it: if God says he is a jealous God then we are certainly made in his image because good and bad jealously is a very human trait. As for the Abraham and Isaac event, Isaac was spared and the Biblical story serves a greater purpose then just a story.

I see. Nation building absolves God of blame for atrocities, but not men such as Ghengis Kahn, Napoleon, Hitler, Stalin, Japanese leaders in WWII, and so forth.

If the American Revolution were fought today, rather than the 18th century, there would be many children horribly killed and many innocent men and women would lose their lives to mines and bombs etc. Many more cities burned on both sides of the Atlantic. That in itself would not equate it with a Hitler or Stalin. But you choose your examples to fit your claim as do I.

God does not need absolution or excuses for his actions, he is God. I wonder, AlanF. If God were to make himself known to you, if you came to definitely believe in God and that the Bible has a good purpose, what would you do about that? Would you come here and tell everyone about your new faith in God? Yes, I think you would. I believe you to be a man of integrity. A good man.

I hope God does that very thing, AlanF.

Sabrina

28

The $20 Bill

by Amazing1914 in

jw
friends

this note bears the image of andrew jackson, 7th president of the us, 1829-1837. as president, he got congress to pass a law that evicted all native indian tribes from all territory east of the mississippi river to the west.

the cherokee tribe living in the state of georgia chose to file suit against the us government instead of going on the war path.

the case went all the way to the us supreme court.

Greenpalmtreestillmine

Amazing1914,

Thanks for the information. A couple of years ago I read Bury My Heart At Wounded Knee, truly no nation can claim to be the owner of the high road of morality and fairness. Until the Christ comes good men and women will continue to fight against those who wield power in an unlawful and unrighteous way. Now whenever I see a Twenty dollar bill I'll remember your post. Thank you.

Also, if I'm not mistaken I believe you started a series on Channel C about evolution and the Bible. I found it interesting. Thanks for that information as well.

With love to you, Amazing1914.

Sabrina

29

Would Jesus shun anyone?

by JH in

jw
friends

i can't imagine jesus shunning anyone.

on the contrary, he went towards those who needed help the most.

if the jw's followed jesus footsteps, they wouldn't shun.

Greenpalmtreestillmine

I whole heartedly agree!!

7

jehavah an hallelujah

by lurk in

why does the nwt print the word hallelujah but use and e not and a in jehovah?.

please xplain it simply if you know cause my brain left me and has moved abroad.

lurk

Greenpalmtreestillmine

Lurk,

Jah is the shortened form of Jehovah. But for what it's worth the Watchtower does what it wants when it wants to anyway.

105

What kind of atheist are you?

by Narkissos in

chief rabbi leon ashkenazi said: "the difference between an atheist christian and an atheist jew is that an atheist christian does not believe that god exists, while an atheist jew believes that god does not exist.".

i'm not so sure about the jewish-christian borderline, but i love the nuance.. so which sentence suits you better?.

"i don't believe that god exists.".

Greenpalmtreestillmine

SixofNine,

Wow. Just goes to show that trying to reconcile the ugliness of a do-nothing god (or a nation building god, lol), will eventually drive a person mad. Sad.

"Mad" I am, SixofNine.

105

What kind of atheist are you?

by Narkissos in

chief rabbi leon ashkenazi said: "the difference between an atheist christian and an atheist jew is that an atheist christian does not believe that god exists, while an atheist jew believes that god does not exist.".

i'm not so sure about the jewish-christian borderline, but i love the nuance.. so which sentence suits you better?.

"i don't believe that god exists.".

Greenpalmtreestillmine

Hillary_Step,

Perhaps Alan is alluding to the fact that if God created the earth he seems to have designed it so that every living creature has to capture and kill other creatures in order to stay alive, and that includes you. Do you not see a disparity with the Biblical God of love and this 'design' feature?

I presume you to be an intelligent man. Man kills, HS. Man rapes, HS. Man kills and rapes his own children, HS. Man wars for no good reason, HS. Man destroys the earth. Man is, shall we say, a demon in his own right.

Please, don't complain to me about the rats, the insects and their creator. Until man rises above the insects he has no right to complain.

105

What kind of atheist are you?

by Narkissos in

chief rabbi leon ashkenazi said: "the difference between an atheist christian and an atheist jew is that an atheist christian does not believe that god exists, while an atheist jew believes that god does not exist.".

i'm not so sure about the jewish-christian borderline, but i love the nuance.. so which sentence suits you better?.

"i don't believe that god exists.".

Greenpalmtreestillmine

AlanF,

My belief has nothing to do with what any "religionists" have told me. It has to do with what the Bible itself says about the Christian God, and what demonstrably is his complete inaction in doing anything positive for mankind today.
What does the Bible say? That this God wiped out entire communities of people to allow the Israelites to take over their land. That this God was perfectly happy to hear the Psalmist write words encouraging Israelites to kill their enemies' babies. That this God often encouraged the Israelites to kill all the males and nonvirgin females of their enemies, and steal the young virgins. That this God is petty, jealous and often acts in a way that, if a human did the same things, he'd be viewed as a horrible criminal.

Provide the quotes and the context please. You are not stupid. The context of much of what you are saying involves nation building. If you are naively thinking that God has no right to give the land to whom he wants but mankind, on the other hand, can divide the land as he pleases then you are putting your head in an ostrich hole because it pleases you to do so. Grow up please. If man can do as he pleases so can God. This the most stupidist thing on the net, this stupidity of: "why does God war? why does God kill?" lol wake up man. We kill, so does God! This is a no brainer!

Just look at the misery in the world. Does this Biblical God do anything about it? No. Any human who had the power to stop such misery and refused would be seen as a monster. Excusing God by saying, "He must have his reasons" answers nothing.

If mankind really, now really, wanted to eradicate hunger could he? How about war? Preventable diseases? Child abuse? Child sex trade?

Please, don't give me this whining bit that God should fix what we ourselves refuse to fix. Either we are intelligent beings or we are chimps. Of the two, man has much less right to complain!

Sabrina, dear, you must learn to argue logically and stop emoting. I said nothing about anything beyond the universe.

AlanF, dear, you must learn the art of hyperbole. The purpose of the hyperbole was to point out that you (please sit down before reading this), do not know everything!

Obviously you object to my statement. The only effective way to contradict it is to give some examples of how you think the universe functions as if the Christian God does exist. But I don't think you can find any.

The universe functions according to the laws of physics and I am very sure other laws which have yet to be discovered. I am open to discovery, you are not. The very nature and essence of a "law" is in itself a declaration of a maker of that law.

6

The Society's Jewish Matrix

by Greenpalmtreestillmine in

they are more jewish than gentile in every sense.

they are more christianized jew than any other christian religion, imo.

if jesus were to look for a religious home close to the first century religious home he lived in i believe the witnesses would both negatively and positively fit the bill.

Greenpalmtreestillmine

Aniron,

I don't think Jesus would touch them with a ten-foot pole.

Why not? Are they really that much worse than other Christian religions? Have they really killed more? Are they more hypocritical? Do they idolize their religious organization more any other Christian religion does?

More importantly, was the first century Jewish arrangement more righteous?

61

How does God communicate with us?

by JH in

in the past, god spoke to humans through angels, prophets, and jesus.

today, there are no prophets, angels don't show up anymore, and jesus isn't there to speak to us.. we can talk to god through prayer, but how does god talk to us?.

so, other than the bible which is pretty outdated, how can god communicate with humans?

Greenpalmtreestillmine

Wordlywife,

When I see the sun breaking through the clouds, and it casts rays down in all kinds of patterns. When I see a baby. When I look up at a clear night sky and can't at all fathom what I see before me, it leaves me in awe and wonder.
That may sound simplistic, but that's how it happens for me. God leaves the rest up to me.

Beautifully said. Thank you!

Sabrina