Posts by abbagail

17

The teaching of the resurrection

by TooBad TooSad in

we all know that the wtbts teaches that there will be a resurrection to an.

earthly paradise if you die faithfull to the organization.

in the bilble there.

abbagail

The churches' version is a bit more sensible, but still dumb. Their version of it has you, the spirit surviving the death of you body, going somewhere to wait. Then at the resurrection time, god makes you a new body from dirt and injects you the spirit back into the animal/dirt body he just created, in order to face a judgement.

Close but not totally accurate -- at least not the Christianity I am familiar with.

Yes, the spirit survives death and if you "died in Christ," your spirit goes and stays with Him until the rapture/resurrection of the saints/Body of Christ, at which time Christ descends from heaven in the clouds (does not come all the way back to the earth at this time), and brings those spirits with Him, and their spirits and bodies are reunited at that time and instantly changed "in the twinkling of an eye" into immortal, incorruptible bodies like Christ has had since His resurrection. (1 Th 4:13-18; 1 Cor. 15). Flesh and Soul (your mind/will/emotions/intellect) and Body are reunited at that time and instantly changed to eternal bodies fit for glory with Christ so we can "see him just as he is." Ditto for "we who are alive and remain" at the time of that rapture/resurrection of the saints in Christ. That group will never have to die at all, but will be "caught up" to the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and their bodies also will be instantly changed to immortal, incorruptible bodies.

Lastly, the "judgment of these believers" is not a judgment as to salvation (since we were eternally sealed/saved upon putting faith in Christ's shed blood for our sins), but the "judgment" believers will face is the "judgment seat of Christ" a/k/a the Bema Seat Judgment, which is when believers will receive crowns and rewards or whether their crownds/rewards will be withheld. Salvation was already guaranteed at the time one puts faith in the finished work of Christ for our sins, but rewards are not an automatic "done deal":

Romans 14:10-12 : “For we will all stand before God’s judgment seat…so then, each of us will give an account of himself to God.” 2 Corinthians 5:10: “For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, that each one may receive what is due him for the things done while in the body, whether good or bad.”

ALL of Paul's writings are directed to Christians, not unbelievers, so those verses apply to us.

Here's a few snips that explain it rather succinctly: http://www.gotquestions.org/judgment-seat-Christ.html

The Judgment Seat of Christ does not determine salvation; that was determined by Christ’s sacrifice on our behalf ( 1 John 2:2 ), and our faith in Him ( John 3:16 ). All of our sins are forgiven and we will never be condemned for them ( Romans 8:1 ). We should not look at the Judgment Seat of Christ as God judging our sins, but rather as God rewarding us for our lives. Yes, as the Scriptures say, we will have to give an account of our lives. Part of this is surely answering for the sins we committed. However, that is not going to be the primary focus of the Judgment Seat of Christ.

At the Judgment Seat of Christ, believers are rewarded based on how faithfully they served Christ ( 1 Corinthians 9:4-27 ; 2 Timothy 2:5 ). The things we will likely be judged on are how well we obeyed the Great Commission ( Matthew 28:18-20 ), how victorious we were over sin ( Romans 6:1-4 ), how well we controlled our tongue ( James 3:1-9 ), etc. The Bible speaks of believers receiving crowns for different things based on how faithfully they served Christ ( 1 Corinthians 9:4-27 ; 2 Timothy 2:5 ). The various crowns are described in 2 Timothy 2:5 ; 2 Timothy 4:8 ; James 1:12 ; 1 Peter 5:4 ; and Revelation 2:10 . James 1:12 is a good summary of how we should think about the Judgment Seat of Christ, “Blessed is the man who perseveres under trial, because when he has stood the test, he will receive the crown of life that God has promised to those who love Him.”Recommended Resource: Your Eternal Reward: Triumph & Tears at the Judgment Seat of Christ by Erwin Lutzer.

As for the other group, if you died NOT "in Christ," your spirit goes to the "temporary holding cell," Hades, where your spirit will stay throughout the 1,000 year reign of Christ, until the Great White Throne judgment (Rev. 20:11) which takes place subsequent to the Millenium. At that time all those who did not die "in Christ" (ie, the "unrighteous") will be resurrected and given a body and they will be judged according to their deeds. And since they never took advantage to have all their sins removed (inherited from Adam at our births, not to mention all the sins we commit after that) and which no man can remove his own sins except by belief in Christ's death/burial/resurrection, they will have to "pay" for their own sins under the Law, ie, eternal separation from God, in their flesh bodies, into the "permanent prison," ie, the Lake of Fire.

God is Holy and He cannot have unholy sinners in his presence. He"makes us Accepted in the Beloved" (Eph. 1:6) simply by our accepting the finished work of Christ on our behalf. If we reject that provision, by default we are choosing to pay for our own sins, as described above.

---------------------------------

If anybody is interested in doing more research, search for "Judgment Seat of Christ vs. Great White Throne Judgment."

--------------------------------

I'm going to add some fantastic charts below to show the absolute beauty of the hope of the believer...

61

How Tall are You ? Weight Optional - Only if you are Comfortable ?

by flipper in

jw
friends

.

my wife and i were talking about this and thought it would be fun.

.

abbagail

About four females brave enough to post amongst all the males.

At 56, still 5-foot-nothing, and the weight was greaaaat at 95 lbs. -- until "The Pause" hit, so I quit weighing, don't have a clue, and don't want to know. I'll just borrow free2think's description = curvy, lol. I like that.

So much coffee doesn't help either.

18

Can a person be a Christian and a scientologist?

by truthlover in

jw
friends

looking at their web site, it seems they rely completely on mankind to solve problems, yet their message is so close to the scriptures, it makes me wonder ---if, once you have your life in order- the scientology way, mankind should resolve all their problems since they believe all are equal, etc.. they dont seem to believe in god or in satan, but that the world is in a mess because men dont work together to better themselves.. any comments??.

theirs seem to be a perfect life, and have professionals in place to help relieve anyone of any baggage they carry from early life, ie -abuse, be it physical, emotional or religious..... .

.

abbagail

And here's a page with your specific question in the browser title, with a chart outlining Hubbard quotes and beliefs from his books, vs. Biblical positions on the same subjects... (dated 1996)...

Update: Bummer, the chart lines/blocks didn't show up... or did they?

Scientology vs. Christianity

http://www.libertytothecaptives.net/scientology_vs_christ.html

L RON HUBBARD AND JESUS CHRIST

(updated repost with references)

Disclaimer: Some of the verses cited in this chart are not from the King James Bible.

I have heard it said that a Scientology spokeswoman stated that Scientology is "not a turn the other cheek religion". How true, indeed. This article contains an updated repost of this comparison between Christianity and Scientology, which many found quite revealing. Now also references.

	Christianity	Scientology

On revenge and enemies	"Love your enemies, do good to those who hate you, bless those who curse you, pray for those who ill-treat you. If someone strikes you on one cheek, turn to him the other also." - Jesus Christ, Luke 6:27-28, Matthew 5:38-39	"An enemy... may be injured by any means or tricked, sued or lied to or destroyed." - L. Ron Hubbard, Penalties for Lower Conditions, HCO PL 18 Oct 67 "This is the correct procedure: Spot who is attacking us. Start investigating them promptly for FELONIES or worse using our own professionals, not outside agencies. Double curve our reply by saying we welcome an investigation of them. Start feeding lurid, blood sex crime actual evidence on the attackers to the press. DON'T EVER tamely submit to an investigation of us. Make it rough, rough on attackers all the way." - L. Ron Hubbard, Attacks on Scientology, HCO PL 25 Feb 1966
About telling the truth	"Simply let your 'Yes' be 'Yes', and your 'No', 'No'; anything beyond this comes from the evil one." - Jesus Christ NT:Matthew 5:37	"Handling truth is a touchy business ... Tell an acceptable truth." - L. Ron Hubbard, The Missing Ingredient, 13 August 1970.
About using religious deception	"Watch out for false prophets. They come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ferocious wolves. By their fruit you will recognize them." - Jesus Christ,Matthew 7:15	"Churches are looked upon as reform groups. Therefore we must act like a reform group." - L. Ron Hubbard, 1966, According to Jon Atack's The total freedom trap
About greed and money	"Give to everyone who asks you, do not demand it back." - Jesus Christ, Luke 6:30 "Sell everything you have and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven." - Jesus Christ, Luke 18:22	"MAKE MONEY. MAKE MORE MONEY." - L. Ron Hubbard, HCO PL 9 Mar 72
About the price charged for religion	"Freely you have received, freely give." - Jesus Christ, Matthew 10:8	"PROCESSING MAY NEVER BE GIVEN AWAY BY AN ORG. Processing is too expensive to deliver." - L. Ron Hubbard HCO PL 27 Sep 70 (Issue I)
About the judicial system	"Settle matters quickly with your adversary who is taking you to court." - Jesus Christ,Matthew 5:25	"The law can be used very easily to harass... the purpose of the suit is to harass and discourage rather than to win." - L. Ron Hubbard, The Scientologist - A Manual on the Dissemination of Material", reprinted in The Technical Bulletins of Dianetics and Scientology volume 2, pp.151-171, 1979 printing.
About redemption in Christ	"... I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave himself for me." - St. Paul, Galatians 2:20	"Christ died for his own sins." - L. Ron Hubbard, (Uncertain ref; Saint Hill tape #12 or such. Readers are urged to post the correct ref, if possible).
About using religion to make money	"... men of corrupt mind, who have been robbed of the truth and who think that godliness is a means to financial gain." - St. Paul, 1 Timothy 5:5	"I'd like to start a religion. That's where the money is." - L. Ron Hubbard to Lloyd Eshbach in 1949; quoted by Eshbach in Over My Shoulder.
About being open-minded	"Test everything. Hold on to the good." - St. Paul, 1 Thessalonians 5:21	"Never permit an 'open-minded' approach. [...] Never let them be half-minded about being Scientologists..." - L. Ron Hubbard,Keeping Scientology Working, HCO PL 7 Feb 65, reissued in 1980, 1991 edition.
About society in general	"Everyone must submit himself to the governing authorities, for there is no authority except that which God has established." - St. Paul, Romans 13:1	"If we place the government on our chart of human evaluation we find a craven psychotic .... Governments are insane." - L. Ron Hubbard, Ability Magazine, Issue No. 5
About the great "knowledge" of cults	"Turn away from godless chatter and the opposing ideas of what is falsely called knowledge, which some have professed and in so doing have wandered from the faith." - St. Paul, 1 Timothy 6:20-21	"This is useful knowledge. With it the blind again see, the lame walk, the ill recover, the insane become sane and the sane become saner. By its use the thousand abilities man has sought to recover become his once more." - L. Ron Hubbard,Scientology: A History of Man. Foreword.
About the reality of Christianity	"That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked at and our hands have touched - this we proclaim concerning the Word of Life." - St. John , 1 John. 1:1	"I don't know how they found it; either by watching madmen or something. But since that time they have used it. And it became what is known as Christianity. The Man on the cross.There was no Christ!" - L. Ron Hubbard, Class 8 Auditor's Course (Confidential), taped on the ship Apollo in Corfu, Greece.
Jeff Jacobsen:
About who will own the universe	"Blessed are the meek; for they shall inherit the earth." (Jesus Christ, Mat. 5:5)	"The universe is a rough universe. It is a terrible and deadly universe. Only the strong survive it, only the ruthless can own it." - L.Ron Hubbard, Scientology: A History of Man, p.38)
Perry Scott:
About the law	"Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil." - Jesus Christ, Luke 5:17-18, (KJV)	"Somebody some day will say 'this is illegal'. By then be sure the orgs say what is legal or not." -- L. Ron Hubbard, HCOPL 4 January 1966
About lawsuits	"And if any man will sue thee at the law, and take away thy coat, let him have thy cloak also." - Jesus Christ, Matt 5:40 (KJV)	"The purpose of the suit is to harass and discourage rather than to win...The law can be used very easily to harass, and...will generally be sufficient to cause [the enemy's] professional decease. If possible, of course ruin him utterly." - L.Ron Hubbard, Magazine articles on Level O Checksheet, American Saint Hill Organization 1968.
About forgiveness	"And unto him that smiteth thee on the one cheek offer also the other;" - Jesus Christ, Luke 6:29 (KJV)	"We are not a turn-the-other-cheek religion." - Liesa Goodman, cult spokesperson, on MTV's "New Religions: The Cult Question", June 1995

Perhaps it's useless to compare statements from the Bible with Hubbard's blasphemous views on the subject. The shocking differences are all too obvious. It's difficult to resist the temptation, when Scientology publications state that "you can be a Christian and a Scientologist at the same time".

Comparing such statements might have relevance for Christian readers of a.r.s. and the crossposted groups, but it seems like all people, regardless of their belief, should remember this description of dangerous cults: "They come to you in sheep's clothing...."

[email protected] Student of Theology, Law Student U of Helsinki

source:

http://www.ezlink.com/~perry/Co$/Christian/peik.htm

[...]

18

Can a person be a Christian and a scientologist?

by truthlover in

jw
friends

looking at their web site, it seems they rely completely on mankind to solve problems, yet their message is so close to the scriptures, it makes me wonder ---if, once you have your life in order- the scientology way, mankind should resolve all their problems since they believe all are equal, etc.. they dont seem to believe in god or in satan, but that the world is in a mess because men dont work together to better themselves.. any comments??.

theirs seem to be a perfect life, and have professionals in place to help relieve anyone of any baggage they carry from early life, ie -abuse, be it physical, emotional or religious..... .

.

abbagail

Wow, and here's a blog article listing specific -- and mightily creepy -- quotes from Hubbard's book: Science of Survival...

http://www.skeptictank.org/gen2/gen00048.htm

On Hubbard's Vision of A New World Order

Scientology Crime Syndicate

From: Warrior <warrior@...
Date: 4 May 2000 22:53:35 -0700

Let's don't forget that Hubbard also wrote in _Science of Survival_:

"The sudden and abrupt deletion of all individuals occupying the lower bands of the tone scale from the social order would result in an almost instant rise in the cultural tone and would interrupt the dwindling spiral into which any society may have entered. It is not necessary to produce a world of clears in order to have a reasonable and worthwhile social order; it is only necessary to delete those individuals who range from 2.0 down, either by processing them enough ... or simply quarantining them from the society."

In other words, go along with Hubbard's vision of how to produce an "optimum" state (become a Scientology "Clear"), or be removed from society.

Earlier in his _SOS_, Hubbard wrote on page 131:

"The only answers would seem to be the permanent quarantine of such persons from society to avoid the contagion of their insanities and the general turbulence which they bring into any order"

This is illustrative of Hubbard's vision for a new world order. In such a fascist state as the one envisioned by Hubbard, only "clears" would have civil rights.

"In any event, any person from 2.0 down on the tone scale should not have, in any thinking society, any civil rights of any kind..."

Lest anyone fail to grasp the seriousness of Hubbard's ideas, consider the following from his _SOS_, page 164:

"Thus, immediately after a complete totalitarian conquest of a country we invariably witness an extensive slaughter of indiv- iduals. One can select with ease the individuals marked for liquidation in the consolidation of the conquest. The selection is not made according to the position the individual occupies but by his individualism, his strength, and his reasonableness, or by his continuing revolutionary desire not to conform to set and regimented patterns."

Hubbard's disdain for individuals who are not "clear" is evident in his definition of a "clear" -- "homo novis" (new man), as compared to a person who is not "clear" -- a "wog", defined by Hubbard to be a "common ordinary run-of-the mill garden-variety humanoid" -- a homo sapien.

At the very beginning of his _Science of Survival_, Hubbard gives the goal of Dianetics as "a world without insanity, without criminals, and without war -- this is the goal of Dianetics."

Sound like a worthwhile goal?

Think again.

Realize that a person "below 2.0 on the tone scale" is _insane_ in Hubbard's and Scientology's view.

>From _SOS_, pages 89-90:

"A 1.1 is the most dangerously insane person in society"

"Such people should be taken from the society as rapidly as possible and uniformly institutionalized ... Because of the covert nature of this insanity, it is completely beside the point whether such a person is pronounced insane by any agency."

"In this level is the slime of society, the sex criminals, the political subversives, the people whose apparently rational activities are yet but the devious writhings of secret hate."

"No social order will survive which does not remove these people from its midst."

===

One would have to be completely blind, or ignorant of history to not see the frightening parallels between Hubbard's Scientology and Hitler's Nazi Party ideologies.

Want to be a "Homo novis"/"Clear"/"OT"/Scientologist?

I'll pass, thank you...

Warrior

[...]

18

Can a person be a Christian and a scientologist?

by truthlover in

jw
friends

looking at their web site, it seems they rely completely on mankind to solve problems, yet their message is so close to the scriptures, it makes me wonder ---if, once you have your life in order- the scientology way, mankind should resolve all their problems since they believe all are equal, etc.. they dont seem to believe in god or in satan, but that the world is in a mess because men dont work together to better themselves.. any comments??.

theirs seem to be a perfect life, and have professionals in place to help relieve anyone of any baggage they carry from early life, ie -abuse, be it physical, emotional or religious..... .

.

abbagail

I would think No, to answer your question. The basic foundations of the two are total opposites.

The celebs who are scientologists might be happy 'cuz they got more moola than the average bear, lol. Also if you are blessed with a great mate, that definitely helps in the happiness department. Not to mention the scenic view from Tom Cruise's mountain home.

What do they believe happens after death? I really don't know, but poor John Travolta recently with his beloved son dying so suddenly and so young. That's got to be a killer heartache. I would not want to be a scientologist when death hits a loved one. What hope do they have?

Evidently the scientologists are a problem in Greece... a quick google pulled up this book about them by a Greek journalist who apparently has been studying them for 15 years: http://www.unchain.gr/MERCENARIES.html [the URL button is not working on Safari tonight... ]

NEW ORDER MERCENARIES
The activities of extremist
parareligions and
$CIENTOLOG¥
based on Scientology’s seized documents
By Tony J. Bosnakoudis
PELASGOS Publishing (127 Ahilleos Parashou str, 114-75 Athens, Greece. Phone: +301644021, fax: +3016450097)
[...]
Athens, July 2001 ISBN: 960-522-112-8 500 pages HOW it:
Breaks up families
Brainwashes people
Is linked to CIA and NSA
Attacks Greece and the Church
Cooperates with Turkey and islamists
Affects journalists and politicians
Carries out covert operations in the Balkans
Intervenes within the Greek Intelligence Agency
Keeps files for everyone
Censors the Internet
Tony J. Bosnakoudis is a journalist in the «Defence & Diplomacy» and «RESALTO» magazines
[...]
CONTENTS
PREFACE
SCIENTOLOGY MEDUSA 18
INTRODUCTION 19
How all started
The real face
Internet War
What does the USA do?
Bait and Switch
HISTORY 77
SCIENTOLOGY THEORIES, PRACTICES AND BELIEFS 87
NAZISM AND SCIENTOLOGY (Parallel occult and racist ways) 103
Building the superhuman
Aleister Crowley: "The Great Beast"
Arians-Thetans
Endoterrestrials-Extraterrestrials
Hitler-Hubbard: "Gates of Knowledge"
World domination and separate state
Revival of "lost civilization"
Secret hierarchy of the "chosen ones"
"Mine Kampf"- "Dianetics"
"Hellenocentric" distortion
Control of external contacts
Persecution of social groups
Concentration camps
Militarized structure and uniforms
Espionage
BRAINWASH IN SCIENTOLOGY 173
AFRICA 201
Security Check
"Religious" justification
Support to the governing National Party
SCIENTOLOGY INTERLACE WITH SECRET AGENCIES 213
NOC (Non Official Cover)
From Churches to extremist cults
Psychic Espionage (Remote Viewing)
NSA: The US National Security Agency
InfoSec
Central Security Service
Index of Figure
Analysis of structure
NSA Structure (figure)
Power Laundering
Uncle Oscar vs Uncle Sam (Hegellian Principle)
Human Rights
Amnesty International uncovers the US
Turkish regime and Scientology. Balkan operations
Weapons, assasinations and extremist cults
Ananda Marga
Aum Shinrikyo and Shoko Asahara
Satellites and earthquakes
Saisho Sensoo
Church-State relations
Deputies and Ministers in favour of KEFE
"Arguments"
Dead Agenting in practise
Takis Alexiou - Vasilis Rafailides
DESTRUCTIVE CULTS. Survival Guide 465
DEALING WITH A VICTIM 475
APPENDIX (Parts of the Prosecutor Angelis' Report) 483

[...]

-------------------

Ugh, I am not liking the light grey text color... You can't tell it is light grey until after you post, so I keep going back in to choose regular BLACK text color.

80

Ladies, please explain your behavior

by Elsewhere in

jw
friends

i recently asked a girl out.

she was excited to go so we nailed down some plans and i bought some tickets for a live show at a theater.

the show was for 7:30 pm on friday.

abbagail

Not MY behavior, lol.

My very first thought was exactly as Flipper wrote... probably some other guy who she really already had the hots for and who she maybe had been out with before, called her at the LAST MINUTE (meaning he's a rude jerk but she obviously didn't care), so she tototally switched gears on you at the Last Minute.

Also by her not calling the next day, nor answering your call(s), adds to the above "assumption." If she didn't make the show for a "really good" reason (ie, not another man), then I would think she would have called you ASAP first thing the next day to explain. And since she didn't, she's probably in bed with the other guy all night/next day.

How old is this chick anyway? Sounds like some young chicken with no guts to be truthful.

And ditto what AudeSapere wrote re: the texting... easier to lie that way, don't have to "face" the person via live voice phonecall. Been there, done that (not me, but "him.")

11

Lost years

by Newborn in

jw
friends

friends,.

i feel so bitter right now that the wt & co stole my best years...made me live with constant guilt, stay in a bad marriage, miss out of joy etc etc.. i just can't stop thinking abt it right now.. i feel my background makes me un-normal and that it's in some ways a handicap.. /newborn.

abbagail

"I feel my background makes me un-normal and that it's in some ways a handicap."

This probably isn't quite the same as what you're feeling, but I can sort-of relate in that I've felt like when I meet "real" Christians (meaning not the WT-kind), I feel embarrassed about having been a JW, as if I came "through the back door" to reach Jesus.

11

so where are all the foreclosed upon living?...

by oompa in

jw
friends

i invest in real estate a bit.......with millions losing their homes......where are they living now?.....family?.......apartments are not even near full in atlanta due to overbuilding during the good times........if these people were paying 1900 bucks a month for a crib too big....i would think they would be a good tennent in a small home and could pay the 800 bucks they should have been paying for the right home.......btw.....i am thinking of buying a camp ground....they are slammed full in many areas.....and they pay in advance one full year to keep their spot...i had started noticing that there are are two or three cars at the campers........a sure sign of a home.....not really camping......oompa.

abbagail

Hey Oompa, if you open a campground beauuutiful scenery!

Maroon Bells, Aspen, Colorado

[photo: Maroon Bells, Aspen, Colorado]

As for maxed-out campgrounds , the RV Lifestyle is still going strong it seems... long before the Bailout Days, people had been moving from stationary homes to RVs... There's a great forum here if you want to read up about the "RV life" -- RV Forum: http://www.rv.net/FORUM/ -- [the URL insert isn't working for some reason] -- which is exciting reading to me (went camping a lot as kids). The "full timers" section of that forum I always find fascinating to read how these people are living in their RVs and they just keep on traveling!

<< Class A Motorhomes, the Big Daddy's...

--vs.--

Class C Motorhomes, the Little Mama's >>

Of course the more ritzy-RV-families keep their homes and park their motorhomes in RV-size-garages (which evidently there are subdivisions already round about for this purpose, sort-of like the "fly in" subdivisions...

-----------------------

As for the homeless due to foreclosures, Dateline NBC had a show about it a few weeks ago, and they followed the stories of about three different families, and it was a real tear-jerker! Heartbreaking to see grown men cry! SadSmiley

56

What is the average age of those who no longer believe?

by crapola in

i have been reading many posts today and some of you have mentioned your age and how long you have been away from the org.made me start wondering what the average age is for most on this site who no longer go along with the org.

it would be interesting to find out..