That's interesting that the "be kind and loving to all" notion is a "line" to you. Now those are the true words of disdain from a genuine JW. It is usually said with an arrogant grimace. After all, there is no greater act of love than shaming an individual and abandoning them in an effort to get them to see that they should have never doubted the lies in pursuit of "the truth." Which brings us back to the endeavor to understand the nature of God himself, the one who the JW claim calls Himself "love." It also parallels the definition that the JW claim sets them apart from all the other religions; that "love" they have for one another. Interesting notion of love that almost one million people in 5 years decided they would rather live without.
It is one thing to solicit the thoughts of others, and completely another to search for the mind of God. The site you chose to ask your question is interesting. You're asking the people on this forum if you should place all of your faith once again in the WTBTS, and could they please tell you all of their reasons why they think you should or should not. You especially want to have discussions about crosses, literal flooding, and feelings of close friendship that seems to exist nowhere else but inside of a Kingdom Hall. It seems that you need to be intellectually engaged and would like nothing better than for as many people as possible to dive in with debates, research, opinions, and evidence that disproves every one of the basic and key doctrines of the JW that you have included so far; points they happened to become well versed in their first year of becoming a JW. Points that you are still debating as a 3rd generation JW. It seems you have a tremendous need to find out for yourself. Nothing wrong with that at all.
There is an obvious quality among many of the people in this forum that you have completely overlooked. The fact that you have, I personally think would actually make you shine as the ideal Witness. That quality is Pain. What they experienced at the hands of that “warm hearted” religion was, above all, painful. It left them bruised. It hurt.
When lying is incorporated as a tool for obtaining “the truth,” that contradiction put into practice can become quite painful. Yes, even intellectually painful. I think what you are looking for is a professor who will continue his lecture even while your hair is on fire.
If you consider yourself an independent and highly intellectual thinker then you will need to drastically change some things about your basic identity before you head back to the Hall. You said that you have been to other sites and have debated and discussed ideas and theories. You either need that or you simply enjoy it, and either of those reasons is perfectly fine. I love discussing ideas too. Very, very much. I need that. I need to let my mind go and explore. I need to know that I have exhausted all avenues and have considered all sides. I don’t trust anything less than that. It’s comforting to me to exercise my reasoning abilities and to apply logic to a question.
That’s one of the main reasons why I decided to not become a Witness.
Pickled
JoinedPosts by Pickled
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383
Thinking of becoming a Witness again and my reasons for doing so :(
by reniaa ini've been a faded jw for 10 years i left because of my failed first marriage, i'm no hypocrite and realised i had left completely so i embraced the world and dived in, only christmas and birthdays i could not get into, they were too foreign to me having never celebrated them, like if i suddenly tried to do ramadan or something like that.. 1/ all the criticisms of the people in the truth you say on here, i've found in the world, warts and all only in the world nothing holds them back from being utterly horrible to you.. 2/ i got stabbed by a worldly boyfriend, i got married 2 times of my own choosing to men outside the truth, the first smoked and was an alcoholic, the second gambled every penny we had and defrauded me out of money after we separated, 2 divorces later i am currently pregnant and a single mum since current boyfriend decided kids was to much of a responsibility and he needed his freedom and i was 'too selfish to expect him to give up his life'.. 3/ parents-in-law!
i have been shunned by them as equal to anything you accuse witness families of and for the silliest of reasons, i had a disabled son and his grandparents said they wanted nothing to do with him because they didn't want to become attached in case he died.. 4/ i miss the honest friendships of the truth, i had friends of all ages from 14 to 80 years old and they genuinely cared for me, many trying to keep me in the faith a long time after i left but i was determined to fade so moved away completely, but i find friendships in the world so shallow in comparison and very hard to sustain :( i've never been a drinker and sometimes thats what friendship means you being a companion for them to goto pub with.. 5/ my recent boyfriend was in a christian religion, i thought why not find out about it, harvest churches if you ever heard of them, unfortunately it still hasn't stop him leaving me pregnant and alone and when i said to him how does he clear that with god, he replies "as long as i repent it doesn't matter" it's like he has a "get out of jail free card" for any wrong-doing in the bible, this is so alien to me and my witness trained conscience.. 6/ i recently out of frustration tried looking into atheism and joined their forums, it wasn't fun, they are as bombastic and arrogant as their religious counterparts can be from any religion, they make a religion out of not believing in god, it's very weird they talk of saving people from believing in god and offer nothing to replace it.
they said to me "be happy you are in reality now and enjoy it" and i thought "well if this is reality i've had enough of it".
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Pickled
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383
Thinking of becoming a Witness again and my reasons for doing so :(
by reniaa ini've been a faded jw for 10 years i left because of my failed first marriage, i'm no hypocrite and realised i had left completely so i embraced the world and dived in, only christmas and birthdays i could not get into, they were too foreign to me having never celebrated them, like if i suddenly tried to do ramadan or something like that.. 1/ all the criticisms of the people in the truth you say on here, i've found in the world, warts and all only in the world nothing holds them back from being utterly horrible to you.. 2/ i got stabbed by a worldly boyfriend, i got married 2 times of my own choosing to men outside the truth, the first smoked and was an alcoholic, the second gambled every penny we had and defrauded me out of money after we separated, 2 divorces later i am currently pregnant and a single mum since current boyfriend decided kids was to much of a responsibility and he needed his freedom and i was 'too selfish to expect him to give up his life'.. 3/ parents-in-law!
i have been shunned by them as equal to anything you accuse witness families of and for the silliest of reasons, i had a disabled son and his grandparents said they wanted nothing to do with him because they didn't want to become attached in case he died.. 4/ i miss the honest friendships of the truth, i had friends of all ages from 14 to 80 years old and they genuinely cared for me, many trying to keep me in the faith a long time after i left but i was determined to fade so moved away completely, but i find friendships in the world so shallow in comparison and very hard to sustain :( i've never been a drinker and sometimes thats what friendship means you being a companion for them to goto pub with.. 5/ my recent boyfriend was in a christian religion, i thought why not find out about it, harvest churches if you ever heard of them, unfortunately it still hasn't stop him leaving me pregnant and alone and when i said to him how does he clear that with god, he replies "as long as i repent it doesn't matter" it's like he has a "get out of jail free card" for any wrong-doing in the bible, this is so alien to me and my witness trained conscience.. 6/ i recently out of frustration tried looking into atheism and joined their forums, it wasn't fun, they are as bombastic and arrogant as their religious counterparts can be from any religion, they make a religion out of not believing in god, it's very weird they talk of saving people from believing in god and offer nothing to replace it.
they said to me "be happy you are in reality now and enjoy it" and i thought "well if this is reality i've had enough of it".
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Pickled
It sounds like you are not able to imagine God apart from all the religions.
That sounds like something an Atheist would say, definitely not a JW. So you don't have to worry about sounding too much like a JW.
That means that if God can only be found in religion, and religion is man made...man created God?
You would say otherwise I think. So could a good starting point be to spend a little bit of time researching the nature of God? You said you keep returning to the Bible, so while you are there....why not step away from the laws, covenants, etc that he established for MAN, and instead try to approach the Bible this time in a search for the personality of God Himself?
If you can't come up with anything, then maybe you SHOULD become an Atheist. -
383
Thinking of becoming a Witness again and my reasons for doing so :(
by reniaa ini've been a faded jw for 10 years i left because of my failed first marriage, i'm no hypocrite and realised i had left completely so i embraced the world and dived in, only christmas and birthdays i could not get into, they were too foreign to me having never celebrated them, like if i suddenly tried to do ramadan or something like that.. 1/ all the criticisms of the people in the truth you say on here, i've found in the world, warts and all only in the world nothing holds them back from being utterly horrible to you.. 2/ i got stabbed by a worldly boyfriend, i got married 2 times of my own choosing to men outside the truth, the first smoked and was an alcoholic, the second gambled every penny we had and defrauded me out of money after we separated, 2 divorces later i am currently pregnant and a single mum since current boyfriend decided kids was to much of a responsibility and he needed his freedom and i was 'too selfish to expect him to give up his life'.. 3/ parents-in-law!
i have been shunned by them as equal to anything you accuse witness families of and for the silliest of reasons, i had a disabled son and his grandparents said they wanted nothing to do with him because they didn't want to become attached in case he died.. 4/ i miss the honest friendships of the truth, i had friends of all ages from 14 to 80 years old and they genuinely cared for me, many trying to keep me in the faith a long time after i left but i was determined to fade so moved away completely, but i find friendships in the world so shallow in comparison and very hard to sustain :( i've never been a drinker and sometimes thats what friendship means you being a companion for them to goto pub with.. 5/ my recent boyfriend was in a christian religion, i thought why not find out about it, harvest churches if you ever heard of them, unfortunately it still hasn't stop him leaving me pregnant and alone and when i said to him how does he clear that with god, he replies "as long as i repent it doesn't matter" it's like he has a "get out of jail free card" for any wrong-doing in the bible, this is so alien to me and my witness trained conscience.. 6/ i recently out of frustration tried looking into atheism and joined their forums, it wasn't fun, they are as bombastic and arrogant as their religious counterparts can be from any religion, they make a religion out of not believing in god, it's very weird they talk of saving people from believing in god and offer nothing to replace it.
they said to me "be happy you are in reality now and enjoy it" and i thought "well if this is reality i've had enough of it".
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Pickled
I guess I don't understand.
You would not be required to wear a cross in order to become a JW.
You also would not be required to wear a cross in order to practice any of the other religions on the planet.
There are actually a lot of churches these days who profess to be Christian and there is not a cross in sight anywhere in their building. Lots of motivational speaking, but no cross.
Your original idea was this...
"So here I am feeling like the prodigal daughter and thinking being among warm-hearted if strict people who will accept me back and give me a sense of community again that I haven't seen in any other christian faith for all I've looked, has gotta be better than being shoved and shunned and used by people who have stopped caring for each other and only think of themselves.
Your thoughts please?"
You said the JW are.......
warm hearted.
Strict.
Accepting.
Have a sense of community.
Will not shove you.
Will not shun you.
Will not use you.
Care for one another.
Care for others.
Are you talking about the individual members, or are you also including the "faithful and discrete slave"? Because the "faithful and discrete slave" is strict, but I can't find another thing on that list thats fits them. And even with the individual members, are you really saying that they would never shun you?
What does that have to do with crosses and stakes? -
383
Thinking of becoming a Witness again and my reasons for doing so :(
by reniaa ini've been a faded jw for 10 years i left because of my failed first marriage, i'm no hypocrite and realised i had left completely so i embraced the world and dived in, only christmas and birthdays i could not get into, they were too foreign to me having never celebrated them, like if i suddenly tried to do ramadan or something like that.. 1/ all the criticisms of the people in the truth you say on here, i've found in the world, warts and all only in the world nothing holds them back from being utterly horrible to you.. 2/ i got stabbed by a worldly boyfriend, i got married 2 times of my own choosing to men outside the truth, the first smoked and was an alcoholic, the second gambled every penny we had and defrauded me out of money after we separated, 2 divorces later i am currently pregnant and a single mum since current boyfriend decided kids was to much of a responsibility and he needed his freedom and i was 'too selfish to expect him to give up his life'.. 3/ parents-in-law!
i have been shunned by them as equal to anything you accuse witness families of and for the silliest of reasons, i had a disabled son and his grandparents said they wanted nothing to do with him because they didn't want to become attached in case he died.. 4/ i miss the honest friendships of the truth, i had friends of all ages from 14 to 80 years old and they genuinely cared for me, many trying to keep me in the faith a long time after i left but i was determined to fade so moved away completely, but i find friendships in the world so shallow in comparison and very hard to sustain :( i've never been a drinker and sometimes thats what friendship means you being a companion for them to goto pub with.. 5/ my recent boyfriend was in a christian religion, i thought why not find out about it, harvest churches if you ever heard of them, unfortunately it still hasn't stop him leaving me pregnant and alone and when i said to him how does he clear that with god, he replies "as long as i repent it doesn't matter" it's like he has a "get out of jail free card" for any wrong-doing in the bible, this is so alien to me and my witness trained conscience.. 6/ i recently out of frustration tried looking into atheism and joined their forums, it wasn't fun, they are as bombastic and arrogant as their religious counterparts can be from any religion, they make a religion out of not believing in god, it's very weird they talk of saving people from believing in god and offer nothing to replace it.
they said to me "be happy you are in reality now and enjoy it" and i thought "well if this is reality i've had enough of it".
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Pickled
Reinaa, did you know that the JW can only have a relationship with God through the faithful and discrete slave? That means that your decision, according to you, only comes down to one option. Believe in the faithful and discrete slave and everything they tell you is the correct thing to believe about the Bible, or find another religion.
I have never been a JW, and even in the short time I studied with them I know this fact to be accurate. Its throughout all of their literature. I can provide the quotes if you like. The reason why I am pointing this out is because you seemed to have focused on whether or not Jesus died on a stake or a cross as though that is going to help you to decide whether or not to become a witness again.
The truth is, the only thing you need to ask yourself is if you are willing to believe what THEY believe Jesus was nailed to. Right? If they say Stake....you believe Stake. Question answered. If they say Stake and you say Cross? You cant rejoin the group. Dilemma solved.
The witnesses also spend almost all of their time pointing out the pagan customs and twisted interpretation of other religions. But when you ask them how they personally feel about Jehovah himself, there is this long pause as though that is a foreign question. So I will ask you....how do YOU feel about Jehovah? Cross, Stake, Literal Flood, Friendships, Trinity, and on and on.......but what about God himself? Are you looking for God, or are you looking for a religion? You have said absolutely nothing about trying to decide if you want to search for God or not. Even your thread indicates you are trying to decide whether or not you want to rejoin a religion that left you with so little information about the nature of God that you havent mentioned that "sidenote" once in 18 pages. Not an accusation. Just an observation.
You spent 10 years away from this religion and you never once had the question pop up in your head....Who is God really? If your answer was that it depends on what shape of lumber Jesus was nailed to....perhaps your original religion stripped you of a desire for God Himself and left you on a quest to prove or disprove all the crazy things PEOPLE are doing in their quest for God instead. JW believe that it is not their responsibility to "know" God, but to place their faith in the "faithful and discrete slave" instead. Is that the only option you are trying to decide? To believe THEM or you can never find God? -
75
Why Guess About Dates At All?
by Pickled ini posted this on another thread and realized that it was really off topic, so i made it a separate topic because i would really like to read your thoughts about this... .
does anyone know if any reasons are given by the wtbts about why they feel it is such an important part of their teachings to keep guessing about dates and the years things are going to happen?
it seems that it adds nothing to whatever they believe about the bible, and it has only served to create such confusion among their members over the years.
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Pickled
DOWNLOAD THE ENTIRE COURT TRANSCRIPT FREE IN E-BOOK FORM HERE:
http://www.lulu.com/content/762879
See table of contents in pdf doc for sections of the transcript.
The Douglas Walsh Trial
The Watchtower under oath.
INTRODUCTION
TO THE READER
This court case, Douglas Walsh vs. The Right Honorable James Latham Clyde, M.P.C., etc., was held in the country of Scotland in the year 1954. During the trial, officials of the Watchtower Bible and Tract Society attempted to establish that Jehovah’s Witnesses were a “religion” with “ministers” who should be exempt from military conscription in Scotland.
The trial produced testimony of a most controversial and enlightening nature which gives the reader a look at the Inside of the Watchtower Society’s policy-making process. Douglas Walsh, A JW congregational overseer, and the Society’s highest officials, including the Vice-president (later President), Fred W. Franz, give revealing testimony proving that Jehovah’s Witnesses live under a religious dictatorship which denies independent thinking to its adherents, and forces JWs to accept and preach “false prophecy” to their neighbors.
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In November 1954, a trial was held in Scotland, in which the Watchtower Society tried to establish before the British court that certain of its members were ordained ministers. High ranking leaders of the Society testified, including vice-president Fred Franz and legal counsel for the Society, Haydon C. Covington. Covington's testimony before the attorney for the Ministry of Labour and National Service included the following:
Q. Is it not vital to speak the truth on religious matters?
A. It certainly is.
Q. Is there in your view room in a religion for a change of interpretation of Holy Writ from time to time?
A. There is every reason for a change in interpretation as we view it, of the Bible. Our view becomes more clear as we see the prophesy fulfilled by time.
Q. You have promulgated -- forgive the word -- false prophesy?
A. We have -- I do not think we have promulgated false prophesy, there have been statements that were erroneous, that is the way I put it, and mistaken.
Q. Is it a most vital consideration in the present situation of the world to know if the prophesy can be interpreted into terms of fact, when Christ's Second Coming was?
A. That is true, and we have always striven to see that we have the truth before we utter it. We go on the very best information we have but we cannot wait until we get perfect, because if we wait until we get perfect we would never be able to speak.
Q. Let us follow that up just a little. It was promulgated as a matter which must be believed by all members of Jehovah's Witnesses that the Lord's Second Coming took place in 1874?
A. I am not familiar with that. You are speaking on a matter that I know nothing of.
Q. You heard Mr. Franz's evidence?
A. I heard Mr. Franz testify, but I am not familiar with what he said on that, I mean the subject matter of what he was talking about, so I cannot answer any more than you can, having heard what he said.
Q. Leave me out of it?
A. That is the source of my information, what I have heard in court.
Q. You have studied the literature of your movement?
A. Yes, but not all of it. I have not studied the seven volumes of "Studies in the Scriptures," and I have not studied this matter that you are mentioning now of 1874. I am not at all familiar with that.
Q. Assume from me that it was promulgated as authoritative by the Society that Christ's Second Coming was in 1874?
A. Taking that assumption as a fact, it is a hypothetical statement.
Q. That was the publication of false prophesy?
A. That was the publication of a false prophesy, it was a false statement or an erroneous statement in fulfillment of a prophesy that was false or erroneous.
Q. And that had to be believed by the whole of Jehovah's Witnesses?
A. Yes, because you must understand we must have unity, we cannot have disunity with a lot of people going every way, an army is supposed to march in step.
Q. You do not believe in the worldly armies, do you?
A. We believe in the Christian Army of God.
Q. Do you believe in the worldly armies?
A. We have nothing to say about that, we do not preach against them, we merely say that the worldly armies, like the nations of the world today, are a part of Satan's Organization, and we do not take part in them, but we do not say the nations cannot have their armies, we do not preach against warfare, we are merely claiming our exemption from it, that is all.
Q. Back to the point now. A false prophesy was promulgated?
A. I agree that.
Q. It had to be accepted by Jehovah's Witnesses?
A. That is correct.
Q. If a member of Jehovah's Witnesses took the view himself that that prophesy was wrong and said so he would be disfellowshipped?
A. Yes, if he said so and kept persisting in creating trouble, because if the whole organisation believes one thing, even though it be erroneous and somebody else starts on his own trying to put his ideas across then there is disunity and trouble, there cannot be harmony, there cannot be marching. When a change comes it should come from the proper source, the head of the organisation, the governing body, not from the bottom upwards, because everybody would have ideas, and the organisation would disintegrate and go in a thousand different directions. Our purpose is to have unity.
Q. Unity at all costs?
A. Unity at all costs, because we believe and are sure that Jehovah God is using our organisation, the governing body of our organisation to direct it, even though mistakes are made from time to time.
Q. And unity based upon an enforced acceptance of false prophecy?
A. That is conceded to be true.
Q. And the person who expressed his view, as you say, that it was wrong, and was disfellowshipped, would be in breach of the Covenant, if he was baptized?
A. That is correct.
Q. And as you said yesterday expressly, would be worthy of death?
A. I think - - -
Q. Would you say yes or no?
A. I will answer yes, unhesitatingly.
Q. Do you call that religion?
A. It certainly is.
Q. Do you call it Christianity?
A. I certainly do.
Q. In addition to these regular publications do you prepare and issue a number of theological pamphlets and books from time to time?
A. Yes.
Q. Can you tell me this; are these theological publications and the semi-monthly periodicals used for discussion of statements of doctrine?
A. Yes.
Q. Are these statements of doctrine held to be authoritative within the Society?
A. Yes.
Q. Is their acceptance a matter of choice, or is it obligatory on all those who wish to be and remain members of the Society?
A. It is obligatory.
Q. Did [Pastor Russell] not fix 1874 as some other crucial date?
A. 1874 used to be understood as the date of Jesus' Second Coming spiritually.
Q. Do you say, used to be understood?
A. That is right.
Q. That was issued as a fact which was to be accepted by all who were Jehovah's Witnesses?
A. Yes.
Q. That is no longer now accepted, is it?
A. No.
Q. But it was a calculation which is no longer accepted by the Board of Directors of the Society?
A. That is correct.
Q. So that am I correct, I am just anxious to canvas the position; it became the bounden duty of the Witnesses to accept this miscalculation?
A. Yes.
Q. So that what is published as the truth today by the Society may have to be admitted to be wrong in a few years?
A. We have to wait and see.
Q. And in the meantime the body of Jehovah's Witnesses have been following error?
A. They have been following misconstructions on the Scriptures.
Q. Error?
A. Well, error.
A. These [Watchtower Society] books give an exposition on the whole Scriptures.
Q. But an authoritative exposition?
A. They submit the Bible or the statements that are therein made, and the individual examines the statement and then the Scripture to see that the statement is Scripturally supported.
Q. He what?
A. He examines the Scripture to see whether the statement is supported by the Scripture. As the Apostle says: "Prove all things; hold fast that which is good".
Q. I understood the position to be - do please correct me if I am wrong - that a member of the Jehovah's Witnesses must accept as a true Scripture and interpretation what is given in the books I referred you to?
A. But he does not compulsorily do so, he is given his Christian right of examining the Scriptures to confirm that this is Scripturally sustained.
Q. And if he finds that the Scripture is not sustained by the books, or vice versa, what does he do?
A. The Scripture is there in support of the statement, that is why it is put there.
Q. What does a man do if he finds a disharmony between the Scripture and those books?
A. You will have to produce me a man who does find that, then I can answer, or he will answer.
Q. Did you imply that the individual member has the right of reading the books and the Bible and forming his own view as to the proper interpretation of Holy Writ?
A. He comes - - -
Q. Would you say yes or no, and then qualify?
A. No. Do you want me to qualify now?
Q. Yes, if you wish?
A. The Scripture is there given in support of the statement, and therefore the individual when he looks up the Scripture and thereby verifies the statement, then he comes to the Scriptural view of the matter, Scriptural understanding as it is written in Acts, the seventeenth chapter and the eleventh verse, that the Bereans were more noble than those of Thessalonica in that they received the Word with all readiness, and they searched the Scripture to see whether those things were so, and we instruct to follow that noble course of the Bereans in searching the Scripture to see whether these things were so.
Q. A Witness has no alternative, has he, to accept as authoritative and to be obeyed instructions issued in the "Watchtower" or the "Informant" or "Awake"?
A. He must accept those. -
75
Why Guess About Dates At All?
by Pickled ini posted this on another thread and realized that it was really off topic, so i made it a separate topic because i would really like to read your thoughts about this... .
does anyone know if any reasons are given by the wtbts about why they feel it is such an important part of their teachings to keep guessing about dates and the years things are going to happen?
it seems that it adds nothing to whatever they believe about the bible, and it has only served to create such confusion among their members over the years.
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Pickled
“You Can Live Forever In Paradise on Earth”, Chapter 3, Your Religion Really Matters, Page 32
Published by THE WATCHTOWER BIBLE AND TRACT SOCIETY.
“There cannot be two sets of truth when one does not agree with the other.
One or the other is true, but not both.
Sincerely believing something, and practicing that belief, will not make it right if it really is wrong.
20 How should you feel if proof is given that what you believe is wrong?
For example, say that you were in a car, traveling for the first time to a certain place.
You have a road map, but you have not taken time to check it carefully.
Someone has told you the road to take.
You trust him, sincerely believing that the way he has directed you is correct.
But suppose it is not.
What if someone points out the error?
What if he, by referring to your own map, shows that you are on the wrong road?
Would pride or stubbornness prevent you from admitting that you are on the wrong road?
Well, then, if you learn from an examination of your Bible that you are traveling a wrong religious road, be willing to change.
Avoid the broad road to destruction; get on the narrow road to life!” -
75
Why Guess About Dates At All?
by Pickled ini posted this on another thread and realized that it was really off topic, so i made it a separate topic because i would really like to read your thoughts about this... .
does anyone know if any reasons are given by the wtbts about why they feel it is such an important part of their teachings to keep guessing about dates and the years things are going to happen?
it seems that it adds nothing to whatever they believe about the bible, and it has only served to create such confusion among their members over the years.
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Pickled
Thank you Velta. Love and hugs to you too!
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75
Why Guess About Dates At All?
by Pickled ini posted this on another thread and realized that it was really off topic, so i made it a separate topic because i would really like to read your thoughts about this... .
does anyone know if any reasons are given by the wtbts about why they feel it is such an important part of their teachings to keep guessing about dates and the years things are going to happen?
it seems that it adds nothing to whatever they believe about the bible, and it has only served to create such confusion among their members over the years.
-
-
Pickled
Before reading this message from 1995 that indicates that Jesus changed what he was saying directly to his “faithful and discrete slave”, ask yourself these questions….
1. Are you the one who initiated the obsession with dates and times in Bible prophecy?
2. Did you decide on your own to focus on figuring out the exact year when Armageddon was going to occur?
3. Did you decide to figure out one day while you were all alone just what the term “a generation” means, and decide on your own what to believe about that?
4. How did you influence the “faithful and discrete slave” and cause them to focus so often on the exact year when Armageddon would occur and people would be destroyed?
5. Why did you purposely decide to neglect the message of the ransom sacrifice and instead spend so much time looking forward to Armageddon?
6. Where did you get your ideas about the “faithful and discrete slave” knowing the correct dates of when catastrophic things were going to happen that the Bible was not specific about?
7. When did you become so unfaithful to Jehovah that even professors of History knew the correct information while you did not, even though you have been fed the correct spiritual food the entire time?
Watchtower, November 1, 1995, Pgs. 16-19
5 After prophesying events leading up to a time of “great tribulation,” Jesus added: “Concerning that day and hour nobody knows, neither the angels of the heavens nor the Son, but only the Father.” (Matthew 24:3-36; Mark 13:3-32)
We do not need to know the exact timing of events.
Rather, our focus must be on being watchful, cultivating strong faith, and keeping busy in Jehovah’s service—not on calculating a date.
Jesus concluded his great prophecy by saying: “Keep looking, keep awake, for you do not know when the appointed time is. . . . Keep on the watch . . . What I say to you I say to all, Keep on the watch.” (Mark 13:33-37) Danger lurks in the shadows of today’s world. We must keep awake!—Romans 13:11-13.
6 Not only must we pay attention to the inspired prophecies concerning these final days of a wicked system but we must anchor our faith primarily on the precious sacrifice of Christ Jesus and God’s marvelous promises based thereon. (Hebrews 6:17-19; 9:14; 1 Peter 1:18, 19; 2 Peter 1:16-19)
Eager to see the end of this evil system, Jehovah’s people have at times speculated about the time when the “great tribulation” would break out, even tying this to calculations of what is the lifetime of a generation since 1914.
However, we “bring a heart of wisdom in,” not by speculating about how many years or days make up a generation, but by thinking about how we “count our days” in bringing joyful praise to Jehovah. (Psalm 90:12)
Rather than provide a rule for measuring time, the term “generation” as used by Jesus refers principally to contemporary people of a certain historical period, with their identifying characteristics.
7 In line with the above, professor of history Robert Wohl wrote in his book The Generation of 1914: “A historical generation is not defined by its chronological limits . . . It is not a zone of dates.” But he pointed out that World War I created “an overwhelming sense of rupture with the past,” and he added: “Those who lived through the war could never rid themselves of the belief that one world had ended and another begun in August 1914.”
How true that is! It focuses on the crux of the matter.
“This generation” of mankind since 1914 has experienced appalling changes. It has seen the earth drenched with the blood of millions. Warfare, genocide, terrorism, crime, and lawlessness have erupted worldwide. Famine, disease, and immorality have stalked our globe. Jesus prophesied: “You also, when you [his disciples] see these things occurring, know that the kingdom of God is near. Truly I say to you, This generation will by no means pass away until all things occur.”—Luke 21:31, 32.
8 Yes, the complete triumph of the Messianic Kingdom is at hand!
Is anything to be gained, then, by looking for dates or by speculating about the literal lifetime of a “generation”? Far from it!
Habakkuk 2:3 clearly states: “The vision is yet for the appointed time, and it keeps panting on to the end, and it will not tell a lie. Even if it should delay, keep in expectation of it; for it will without fail come true. It will not be late.” Jehovah’s day of accounting hastens ever closer.—Jeremiah 25:31-33; Malachi 4:1.
9 When Christ’s Kingdom rule began in 1914, Satan was hurled down to earth. This has meant “woe for the earth . . . because the Devil has come down to you, having great anger, knowing he has a short period of time.” (Revelation 12:12) That time is short, indeed, compared with the thousands of years of Satan’s rulership. The Kingdom is at hand, and so is Jehovah’s day and hour for executing judgment on this wicked generation!—Proverbs 3:25; 10:24, 25. -
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Why Guess About Dates At All?
by Pickled ini posted this on another thread and realized that it was really off topic, so i made it a separate topic because i would really like to read your thoughts about this... .
does anyone know if any reasons are given by the wtbts about why they feel it is such an important part of their teachings to keep guessing about dates and the years things are going to happen?
it seems that it adds nothing to whatever they believe about the bible, and it has only served to create such confusion among their members over the years.
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Pickled
Awake!, November 8, 1994, Pg. 10, “The Real Significance of 1914”
The Real Significance of 1914
AS INDICATED on page 4, “this magazine builds confidence in the Creator’s promise of a peaceful and secure new world before the generation that saw the events of 1914 passes away.”
****No doubt many of our readers find that statement surprising. Yet, as far back as December 1879—some 35 years before 1914—The Watchtower (then known as Zion’s Watch Tower and Herald of Christ’s Presence) gave Bible evidence proving that 1914 would be a significant year. Even before this—in the middle of the 19th century—other students of the Bible had hinted that 1914 was possibly a year marked in Bible prophecy.
Prophecy has been described as history written in advance. This feature of the Bible gives evidence of its divine origin. In addition to telling us of future events, the Bible sometimes gives the length of time that will elapse before something is to occur. Some of these specific prophecies refer to a few days, some to years, and others to centuries.
Daniel, who prophesied about the time for the Messiah’s first appearance, also revealed when the Messiah would return for his “presence” at what is called “the time of the end.” (Daniel 8:17, 19; 9:24-27) This Bible prophecy stretches over a long period of time, not for just a few hundred years, but for more than two millenniums—2,520 years! At Luke 21:24, Jesus calls this period “the appointed times of the nations.”
1914 Initiates a Time of Distress
The fulfillment of Bible prophecy indicates that we have been living in the time of the end since 1914. Jesus described this time as ‘beginning with pangs of distress.’ (Matthew 24:8) At Revelation 12:12, we read: “Woe for the earth and for the sea, because the Devil has come down to you, having great anger, knowing he has a short period of time.” This explains why the world has been in greater turmoil since 1914.
This time of the end is, however, to be a relatively short period—stretching over one generation. (Luke 21:31, 32) The fact that we are now ***80 years beyond 1914 indicates that we can soon expect the deliverance that God’s Kingdom will bring. This means that we will see “the lowliest one of mankind”—Jesus Christ—take complete control of “the kingdom of mankind” and bring about a peaceful and just new world.—Daniel 4:17.
****Yes, in 1879 they gave evidence that it was a significant year. But not the year of Christ's return. That year was 1874. In 1919, they still believed that Christ returned in 1874. The "faithful and discrete slave" that they now say was appointed in 1919 was appointed while they were not even aware of when Christ returned. In 1919 it was believed by all Bible Students that the "faithful and discrete slave" consisted on one man only, and that man was Charles Russell. If Charles Russell was the only "faithful and discrete slave" appointed in 1919 while he was dispensing misunderstandings, and false teachings that will, today, get you disfellowshipped if you believe those teachings...
When did the "faithful and discrete slave" become a "body" of men instead of just one man?
How did the "faithful and discrete slave", in whom you place all of your faith, pass that inspection by Jesus without Jesus noticing all the wrong teachings they were "dispensing"?
Do you know that if you were to remove all the things that were being taught in 1919 that the WTBTS now says were wrong, what you would have left from that time is the same teachings that other religions were "dispensing" as well? So why did Jesus then choose Russell with his wrong teachings, and completely disregard others?
***This indicates that it has been 80 years since 1914. That means that the members of the generation who Jesus said are going to survive to Armageddon are at least 80 years old now. This means that the "faithful and discrete slave" will need to quickly come up with a reason to say that Jesus changed his mind and extended the time of the end. -
75
Why Guess About Dates At All?
by Pickled ini posted this on another thread and realized that it was really off topic, so i made it a separate topic because i would really like to read your thoughts about this... .
does anyone know if any reasons are given by the wtbts about why they feel it is such an important part of their teachings to keep guessing about dates and the years things are going to happen?
it seems that it adds nothing to whatever they believe about the bible, and it has only served to create such confusion among their members over the years.
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-
Pickled
I feel a sense of sadness sometimes, like someone feels who survived a crash and others did not. I studied, I considered, and then was able to say no thank you and walk away.
It isn't the sheer amount of contradictions and lies that seem so disturbing to me. It is the methods they use over and over, year after year, to convince the members to believe them.
They say they have been appointed by Jesus Christ to interpret the Bible for their believers.
They say that the believers should never read the Bible exclusively or they will be turned away from God if they do.
They say that it is only the literature they produce about the Bible that will lead the believers to God.
They say that their only purpose is to relay those messages. Messages that come from the lips of Jesus Christ.
They say that the believers are supposed to treat all and every one of those messages as spiritual food that they are supposed to digest and act on.
They provide wrong information, and do not admit it is wrong until the date has passed and the believers ask why those words from Jesus didn't happen.
They blame the believers for taking them too literally.
The believers need to do more about their own spirituality.
The believers always need to do more as they are waiting for more messages that have new and exciting information that contradicts the previous new and exciting information.
This cycle, at times, just breaks my heart. These are sheep who are being tossed about.