Sorry for the double post, the server seems to be dragging and I think I clicked send twice.
Pickled
JoinedPosts by Pickled
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181
It looks like I will become an elder this week!
by outofthebox inthat's right guys.
as i told you before, they boe have been considering me for the eldership.
which i don't care for, but since my family is stuck in this cult, i guess i can use the new position to help them see that the holy spirit has nothing to do with me being an elder.
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181
It looks like I will become an elder this week!
by outofthebox inthat's right guys.
as i told you before, they boe have been considering me for the eldership.
which i don't care for, but since my family is stuck in this cult, i guess i can use the new position to help them see that the holy spirit has nothing to do with me being an elder.
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Pickled
Chikikie, then why did you choose to join this website if it doesn't matter to you what the JW believe and if you have no desire whatsoever to discuss anything having to do with the Bible? It is certainly your right and actually none of my business where you do or do not post your thoughts. But you have chosen an unusual forum in which to participate then, and I am now simply curious about your motivation. Answer or not, as I have indicated you are not obligated, but still I remain curious.
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181
It looks like I will become an elder this week!
by outofthebox inthat's right guys.
as i told you before, they boe have been considering me for the eldership.
which i don't care for, but since my family is stuck in this cult, i guess i can use the new position to help them see that the holy spirit has nothing to do with me being an elder.
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Pickled
Chikikie, then why did you choose to join this website if it doesn't matter to you what the JW believe and if you have no desire whatsoever to discuss anything having to do with the Bible? It is certainly your right and actually none of my business where you do or do not post your thoughts. But you have chosen an unusual forum in which to participate then, and I am now simply curious about your motivation. Answer or not, as I have indicated you are not obligated, but still I remain curious.
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181
It looks like I will become an elder this week!
by outofthebox inthat's right guys.
as i told you before, they boe have been considering me for the eldership.
which i don't care for, but since my family is stuck in this cult, i guess i can use the new position to help them see that the holy spirit has nothing to do with me being an elder.
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Pickled
Chikikie, I think the core of my wondering consists of whether or not you believe that the JW is a cult. I know that many people from all the different religions, mainstream and far left included, have backgrounds and personal stories that include various forms of abuse or pain. I can also understand how even at the ages of 32 and 38 your upbringing can play a major role in your decision making process even today.
But as adults, don't we need to consider the qualities of the religion itself as a valid and separate entity? If you only take into consideration what happened in the past as a gauge measuring the validity of a religion, then what you are doing is measuring a religion against things that no longer exist in reality. That allows the current religious structure itself to remain unexamined. Should one really decide for or against a religion based on the behavior of their parents? I think it's safe to say that your answer would be no. If the answer is no, then what that leaves is measuring a religion according to other standards. What are those standards then? Your sister indicated that she keeps returning to the Bible as her guide and source of fascination. If the Bible then is the standard, shouldn't the religion you are considering be a religion that aligns itself exclusively with those same messages contained within that same Bible?
This is the crux of the issue. What others have been trying to point out is the fact that this particular religion, the JW and WTBTS, focuses a very great deal on information that is not found in the Bible at all.
Let me be clearer. There exists a Bible and it is considered the standard for all things pertaining to Jesus Christ, Yahweh, Jehovah, the Lord, the holy spirit, etc. Many religions claim that they are using this same Bible as their same standard or guide for teaching and preaching. If one wants to find out if they are or not, they do a comparison of the teachings of that religion vs. the words in the Bible. An example of this process is when one is trying to prove that a Trinity of Father, Son, and Holy Ghost does not exist. What method do they use? They compare the passages in the Bible with the belief in the Trinity in an effort to see of the two align themselves with one another.
I personally gathered a great deal of teachings presented by the WTBTS and compared them with the Bible's contents. Many of those teachings are not found in the Bible. I then decided that this religion did not pass the Biblical scratch and sniff test. That was not my only reason for saying no thank you. After all, there are many teachings out there that also do not align themselves with the Bible so does that make them a cult too? No, that is not what makes a cult a cult. What makes a cult a cult is based on yet another standard. What is that standard? That standard is an accepted definition of the qualities and characteristics of a group of people that indicate they are a cult.
So there is the Bible standard. And then there is also the definition of a cult.
Because the teachings of the WTBTS does not align itself exclusively with the Bible,
and because they have so many of the qualities that match the definition of a cult,
I said no thank you because of both. Isn't that really a Religions 101 method of comparison? -
99
It is official. I am an elder now!
by outofthebox init happened last night guys.
i got early to the kh and the boe came to talk to me.
they ask me to read the bible and asked me a couple of questions.
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Pickled
The one big problem with your walking on both sides of the fence at the same time is that, when you slip, your nuts get smashed. It's not only humiliating, but also a great visual for the remaining elders to use as an example illustrating the dangers of independent thinking. Good luck on that "mission."
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181
It looks like I will become an elder this week!
by outofthebox inthat's right guys.
as i told you before, they boe have been considering me for the eldership.
which i don't care for, but since my family is stuck in this cult, i guess i can use the new position to help them see that the holy spirit has nothing to do with me being an elder.
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Pickled
OOTB, what decision is it that you prefer they make?
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181
It looks like I will become an elder this week!
by outofthebox inthat's right guys.
as i told you before, they boe have been considering me for the eldership.
which i don't care for, but since my family is stuck in this cult, i guess i can use the new position to help them see that the holy spirit has nothing to do with me being an elder.
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Pickled
I want to add a brief observation based on your most current post here in response to what I wrote to your sister. You mentioned the posters here and their comments in contrast to your desire to not be dishonest. Just wanted to point out that I in no way suggested that OOTB do anything dishonest. As a matter of fact, it was quite the opposite. I know that you were probably making a blanket statement that covered all in general, but I was the one you were addressing in your post, so I am responding in a self-specific sort of way.
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181
It looks like I will become an elder this week!
by outofthebox inthat's right guys.
as i told you before, they boe have been considering me for the eldership.
which i don't care for, but since my family is stuck in this cult, i guess i can use the new position to help them see that the holy spirit has nothing to do with me being an elder.
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Pickled
Reniaa, I can understand what you have posted, especially the part about becoming a cynic. If you ever get tired paddling that boat, I will row for a while. :-) And if you read your posts as though someone else wrote them you will see this leap out at you..
She likes the bible teaching.
She likes the environment.
She considers the JW no better or worse than anyone else's.
She misses the family atmosphere the JW provided.
She has fond memories of faithful JW.
She does not see them as a cult, but instead as one of many religions who have good and bad members.
Because of this, I personally think that your hesitation and need to start a thread asking for input about whether or not you should return, must not be based on any of the attributes you have mentioned. It must be based on things that you have not shared, and btw I am not suggesting you share those things or implying you are under any obligation whatsoever to share them. You seem to be intelligent and reasonable, and so you can likely see why some are scratching their heads. Keep in mind that this forum often acts as a support group and a place to share a process, and there are those who are in the majority who are here to accompany others on that same journey who have that same need to share, vent, or ask for advice. You are one who asked for advice, and many have been trying to give it. And it seems that every attempt at advice has been met with a response from you that indicates that you have already answered your own question. Have you? -
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No sacred trees in Eden - what would have happened?
by Awakened07 in-this is a hypothetical "for the sake of argument"-topic, where we take for granted that the biblical story of adam and eve (as it is presented in the bible we have available today) is literally true.
i think it can be an interesting exercise.. now - let's for this discussion say god did not plant any 'special' tree in the garden of eden.
no tree of knowledge, and no tree of life.
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Pickled
I guess you could go back to the argument that if God was the creator of all things, and nothing exists apart from what He created, then where did evil come from that satan embraced? You can't say that satan created it himself since the ability to create only exists in God. I understand the idea that satan stirs up that tendency in some to whatever degree, but it had to first exist in order to stir it up. If God can simply think things into being, then when did he have that evil thought, and why?
The Bible never indicates that Adam and Eve knew that they were eating from the tree of life. The verses indicate that God put it there, and it is implied that He intended for them to eat from it, but never does it say that He told those humans either of those facts. When they were banished from the garden the angels with the flaming swords were placed there, according to how it reads, so that the humans would not reach out their hand and eat from the Tree of Life. However, it again does not indicate that the humans knew that they had the ability to do that at all. Having said that, what remains in the garden that the humans knew about were all the trees that they were allowed to eat from except the one solitary Tree of Knowledge from which they were told to abstain.
In the process of God banishing these humans he told the woman that He would increase the pain that she would experience in childbirth. Our ability to experience pain is based on the extraordinary amount of pain receptors that make up the way we are built. We have within us a multitude of nerve endings that alert us to anything painful, dangerous, harmful, etc. Those nerves let us know when things feel good too. The overall way that we are built, however, seems to indicate that we are walking pain receptors. This is interesting given the fact that we were supposedly designed in a perfect way to live in a pain free and perfect environment. If we believe the tree story and the creation story and the story of a perfect paradise, then why aren't we designed in a way that reflects an original intention of pain free? It is just the opposite actually.
Ok, what does this have to do with the Tree of Knowledge? The Bible indicates that the Tree of Knowledge was placed there as an unacceptable option. It was also placed there as a choice, an option to exercise free will. Exercised in favor of obeying, or exercised in favor of disobeying. I suppose that satan could have come up with several different scenarios in order to tempt them to disobey, but would those scenarios have come from God? No, they would have been manufactured by satan. It seems, in this story, that God was the one who wanted to provide a way for His creation to exercise their free will, either in a positive way, or in a disobedient way. Had satan been the one to provide that then it would not have been for them to exercise their free will, it would have been simply a way to create distance between the created and the creator. I think the underlying message, in my opinion, is that God preferred a willful sort of obedience, one that is decided upon and among other options.
But that then leads me to the overall design of the creature. Did he design the creature with millions of pain receptors just in case? We could be walking around right now as lumps of flesh that scarcely notice when we have a gash in our leg or bump our elbow on a door jamb, and without tear ducts, taste buds, or sinus passages that register all things foul simply because we were designed to live in a state of perfection. But we are not made that way. So without spouting what I do or do not believe about the validity of the Bible account, it seems that this tree, to me and according to the story, was planted there by their creator as a free will option, and in personally giving this option himself, he also made a way to survive both physically in form, and spiritually through a mediator, just in case they exercised the option to disobey.
Based also on the Bible's descriptions of the devil it seems, in my opinion, that satan would have been able to come up with any number of ways to cause them to arrive at the same act of disobedience. But would he also have provided a way for them to survive their decision? Would he have included a form of restitution? Admittedly, I am not a big fan of the Bible for right now in my life, but if I look at just the story itself and set aside any thoughts I might have about inspiration or nonsense, and just focus on what seems to be the theme and intent, this is how I personally would answer your question...
The difference between satan offering a tool to disobey and God offering a tool to disobey looks like apples and oranges. One is to exercise free will in either direction with a built in design and plan if the wrong decision is made. The other looks to be just for the sake of disobedience without any chance of redemption, like some twisted version of free will that, when chosen, still only leaves you with the one option. -
181
It looks like I will become an elder this week!
by outofthebox inthat's right guys.
as i told you before, they boe have been considering me for the eldership.
which i don't care for, but since my family is stuck in this cult, i guess i can use the new position to help them see that the holy spirit has nothing to do with me being an elder.
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Pickled
Chikikie, do you have any personal experiences that you can share with your sister that would convey just how difficult and devastating the WTBTS was in your own life? I think what some of the members here are feeling is normal, however militant it may come across, considering the raw pain that resulted in their own lives as a result of their association with the WTBTS. My own experience with the JW on all accounts was to observe their overt suspicion of anyone who was "on the outside." As a matter of fact, one of the many things that caused a light to come on in my head occurred at a Memorial service. People sitting in chairs around me were introducing themselves to one another and there were quite a few "visitors" and non or ex JW present. One who was visiting who was a JW from another congregation in another city introduced herself and said in a hushed tone with a solemn secretive nod, and while her eyes furtively glanced around her as though she was among the enemy, "I am a JW." It wasn't what she did that got my attention, it was that it looked so normal to the Witnesses listening to her and nodding in acknowledgment.
So given the fact that your sister is considering returning to this religion of the secret handshake and the fact that the interpretations of a book that is already over 3000 years old that anyone can buy off the shelf are treated as though they are top secret, could her experience here on this forum be viewed as a reintroduction to a mindset that she will herself possess once she is reinstated?
What sort of thinking is it if you don't feel uncomfortable with the JW view of the world (and that includes you, you have said), and yet you feel indignantly uncomfortable with the ex-JW view of anyone who sympathizes with the WTBTS? As outspoken as some may be on this forum it may bring you a certain measure of comfort to know that no one here is looking forward to your inevitable destruction. They are simply posting their views in an effort to be heard and to arrive at a better understanding of your views as well. What they are not doing is copy/pasting information off of a disc that they have been given as the only source of information they are allowed to have, and then when you don't agree, just casually walking off firmly convinced that you are slated for destruction anyway and they, thankfully, will be left to pilfer all of your wretched belongings once you have received what you truly deserve.
No, that is the mindset of the Jehovah's Witnesses. THIS is a forum of free thinkers who are willing to blast away and take their lumps as well. The majority here have chosen to not replace their brain with a disc, and the result of that can be argumentative, colorful, hysterically funny, stubborn, sad, and all those things that make up genuine human experiences when allowed to move about in a state of free expression. The truth is, however offended you are by some here compares only slightly to how offended you are going to feel when your sister returns to the fold and lets you know one day that she is looking forward to life in paradise and having the opportunity to take part in the privilege of scooping up your ashes.
Yes, that sounds horrible, and very much like something members of a cult would believe.