Pickled

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Posts by Pickled

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  119

  Could U Please Cite Some Personal Interesting Observations About The Truth?

  by minimus in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  for anyone that looks at this thread, could you write something either profound or simply interesting so as to make the reader see the truth about "the truth"?

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  Pickled

  Quietlyleaving, you wrote:
  “The point I was trying to make is that JWs focus very much on the writings attributed to Paul and on his example to fuel their zeal in the ministry. I realise at least that, that is what I did. In recognising that we 'victims participated in victimizing others' we have to acknowledge the huge part the apostle Paul played in the process through his interpretation of Jesus Christ (a light bulb moment for me)”
  
  “I guess we have to acknowledge that Paul (with the best intentions) had been a victimser before he became a christian and he continued to victimise after with as much zeal. Do his writings bring out the vicitmser in one? And if they do shouldn't we be careful to acknowledge that?”
  
  Thank you so much for responding to that question. I didn’t see your response because it was on another thread.
  
  I also had a tremendous light bulb moment about the same thing as well, so I am particularly interested in your thoughts about this. My light bulb moment occurred when I decided to take just the words of Jesus that were recorded and compare them with all the other writings in the New Testament. What stood out to me was just how little Jesus spoke about things that Paul went on to interpret in terms of structure, organization, and judgment. You are exactly right, in my opinion, about acknowledging the words of a man who also had his own interpretation of someone else’s message. I am still on a journey and this was one realization along the way that I am still pondering.
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  119

  Could U Please Cite Some Personal Interesting Observations About The Truth?

  by minimus in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  for anyone that looks at this thread, could you write something either profound or simply interesting so as to make the reader see the truth about "the truth"?

  ?

  1. 
  2. 
  3. 
• 

  Pickled

  If you are reading this thread and you are currently studying with the Jehovah’s Witnesses, then you are no doubt on a search for the truth. You are probably also at a very low point in your life. You are likely searching, you are hungry for change, and you are having a hard time right now sorting through what you once knew and what you have been confronted with now.
  
  It is also safe to assume that you had enough doubts about what you are hearing to cause you to search for and find this website. If you are an honest and open person and you feel you have a good relationship with the Witness you are studying with, you have likely shared some of the things you have discovered online with him or her.
  
  Did you hear any of these responses?
  
  “Well, stop and consider this, (insert your name here)……..don’t you find it odd that none of them found anything wrong with Jehovah’s teachings until they were disfellowshipped?”
  
  “I understand what you are saying, and they do raise a good point about God being a God of love, and now that they have left Jehovah’s Organization they feel more freedom to be themselves. Then why all the anger? If they are so free now why do they continue to congregate together rehashing all the reasons why they left to be free?”
  
  “It sounds like the only thing they are preaching is a message against everything they once believed. Have you tried to stop and consider what they are FOR instead of what they only seem to be AGAINST? An anti-gospel is not a ministry.”
  
  “What truths or message are they offering you apart from how badly they believe they were treated while they were in Jehovah’s Organization?”
  
  “If you read those websites long enough you will find that their “freedom” consists of doing all the things that they felt they were prevented from doing while they were a part of Jehovah’s Organization. Why is it that all of those things include sins and none of those things include preaching the gospel in spite of their claims of understanding the bible in a more truthful way?”
  
  These are all very good questions, and they sound reasonable and logical. Is there any truth in those questions?
  
  Yes. Many of the people on these websites were content with being a Jehovah’s Witness until they were caught doing something that was considered a sin within the Organization, and then eventually were “disciplined” by being separated from the other members. The separation made them feel rejected, angry, and betrayed. They also knew ahead of time that there were behaviors that the Organization considered offenses worthy of being disfellowshipped, and they did them anyway and were still angry about the consequences.
  
  However, there are also some who were not disfellowshipped because of “wrong doing.” Some had their membership removed because they began to ask questions that made it appear to the leadership that they were a threat to the other members. Those questions included many of the questions you will find online as you read the various websites of former members.
  
  It is important that you become able to recognize those legitimate questions and look beyond the comments that offer you nothing helpful at all in your search.
  
  A third group among those who have been disfellowshipped are those who brought the abuse they suffered to the attention of those who should have acted in a protective role, but instead their abuse became a tool that was used against them. The fact that they were disfellowshipped as a result of being victimized makes their particular experience that much more egregious. As it is with victims of abuse in all religions, it is particularly painful to be abused by those who claim to represent God. Consider just how painful it is when the abuse occurs at the hands of those who claim to be the ONLY representatives of God on this earth; a claim that you believe throughout your abuse. Then, upon turning to those representatives for help and healing, you are met with accusations, denial, and a clear intention to protect the very one who caused you so much pain. Their experiences are very real and, in reading them, you can get an idea of a mindset that is prevalent within the Organization you are considering. This mindset is not entirely unique among all the various religions, but this happens to be the religion you are considering right now.
  
  Another category you will encounter, are those who are not committing any “offenses” and have not been disfellowshipped. They have simply come to the realization, through research and private questioning, that there are very significant contradictions, misstatements, and flat out lies in the information that they have been given and are expected to unquestionably follow. What they are experiencing is very painful because along with that realization is the inevitable fact that they will eventually have to make the decision to either remain a non-believing member, or lose all of their friends and family by leaving. It is important to understand that, according to the Jehovah’s Witnesses, anyone who is not a member of the Watchtower Bible and Tract Society does not have a relationship with God, and will be destroyed by God eventually, and hopefully soon. The person you are studying with does not want to be in that category and holds in contempt anyone who, according to what they believe, has deliberately placed themselves in that category by disobeying Jehovah’s Organization. It is actually a mandate to the “faithful” to treat anyone who is in that category as though they are already destroyed. This is why they do not speak to them any longer and do not invite them to social events, even including a meal at any table. However, the former member is allowed to attend meetings, and the hope is that they will hear the truth in those meetings and return to God’s Organization once again and escape destruction.
  
  It is very important to keep in mind that your “study” partner is willing to reject and shun even their own children, their husband or wife, or their parents if any of them should ever decide to leave Jehovah’s Organization. This is important to note just in case you are starting to believe that the Witness helping you “study the Bible” places great value on you as a human being who is not yet a member of Jehovah’s Organization.
  
  As you try to answer the question of whether or not this really is that one true religion, it is an absolute necessity to learn to sort through the comments and information. Find and read literature that is logical and fact based. I would recommend starting with the book “Captives of a Concept” by Don Cameron. The reason why I would recommend that is because it addresses the very foundation of the religion you are considering. The entire belief system of the Jehovah’s Witnesses is based on the appointment of the “Faithful and Discrete Slave.” All of their information is produced by this same “Faithful and Discrete Slave.” All of their obedience and loyalty is to this “Faithful and Discrete Slave.” All of their literature indicates that you can only have a relationship with God THROUGH this “Faithful and Discrete Slave.” In his book, Don Cameron offers definitive, clear, and easy to read evidence of why they are in fact not qualified to be that “Faithful and Discrete Slave.” On this premise, all of their other doctrines rest. Keep searching. It is an important journey worthy of a thorough search.
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  119

  Could U Please Cite Some Personal Interesting Observations About The Truth?

  by minimus in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  for anyone that looks at this thread, could you write something either profound or simply interesting so as to make the reader see the truth about "the truth"?

  ?

  1. 
  2. 
  3. 
• 

  Pickled

  Undercover, I really liked your post. Very clear.
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  119

  Could U Please Cite Some Personal Interesting Observations About The Truth?

  by minimus in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  for anyone that looks at this thread, could you write something either profound or simply interesting so as to make the reader see the truth about "the truth"?

  ?

  1. 
  2. 
  3. 
• 

  Pickled

  Quietlyleaving, you wrote:
  "2 verses from thessalonians sum up how and what I felt whe sharing the good news of the kingdom
  2thess1:6-10
  and 1thess2:7&8"
  Are you saying that you believed that God was going to destroy those who troubled you, but you loved those who troubled you enough to share the gospel with them?
  
  (Corrected post to past tense)
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  119

  Could U Please Cite Some Personal Interesting Observations About The Truth?

  by minimus in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  for anyone that looks at this thread, could you write something either profound or simply interesting so as to make the reader see the truth about "the truth"?

  ?

  1. 
  2. 
  3. 
• 

  Pickled

  Thank you Quietleaving, but as a former potential convert and never having been a JW, I have no idea what you mean. Can you elaborate and possibly include how you felt about what you did in fact believe?
  
  To potential converts, Jesus and God still represents their creator who loves them. What method did you use to convey to them that these two loving supreme individuals were at the brink of killing them without sounding as though that was something that you were all in favor of?
  
  What did you say when potential converts expressed a look of alarm upon finding out that you are so friendly, and yet completely comfortable with the idea that they will be violently destroyed and you will be spared?
  
  How did you truly feel about the way THEY felt about that?
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  119

  Could U Please Cite Some Personal Interesting Observations About The Truth?

  by minimus in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  for anyone that looks at this thread, could you write something either profound or simply interesting so as to make the reader see the truth about "the truth"?

  ?

  1. 
  2. 
  3. 
• 

  Pickled

  Minimus, I think it would provide a wealth of information if the former Witnesses on this site could share their own specific former approach they used in the effort to convince others of that same lie.
  
  I understand that they no longer believe it, and in many cases that process included a great deal of pain. However, isn't it simply a fact that in order to now be a former member who realizes it was all lie, you had to have previously been someone who was actively participating in and attempting to convince others of that same lie? Isn't it true that members are encouraged to actively "preach" with the goal in mind to convince others that what they are "preaching" is the truth?
  
  Part of healing, recovering, and spending time online in an effort to make others aware of something that caused so much pain, could include sharing in an unvarnished and clear way your own previous role in spreading those same ideas that you have now realized were false and destructive.
  
  As I said before, if two-thirds of Witnesses are walking out the door and still the number of members are increasing however slight, that means that there are many people who may stop and read this thread who are looking at this religion for the first time.
  
  That means that there are so many people who have just started down this road who could benefit tremendously from hearing honest open accounts of methods that were used to initiate curiosity, to convince them to begin a study, and then finally lead them to baptism and membership. Maybe you could share thoughts about the place you were in then, and who you were and why, instead of just what you realize now looking back. The potential new converts today have not been through the same thing. All they know right now is that two very nice, well dressed and smiling people are standing in their doorway managing to do what all the other religions stopped doing years ago. They are impressed with the conviction these people must have about the bible, and their willingness to spend so much time doing the very unpopular and often mocked practice of going door to door. They are polite, they are interested in what is going on in the world, they are sympathetic to their worries, fears, and concerns.
  
  I know that exposing what "they" are doing is a great way to help others. But what did YOU do when you were a Witness? Did you have a really unique approach or method that you were proud of? What were your real thoughts THEN as you were doing it? How did you manage to act as though you valued the life of a potential convert, while at the same time feeling quite comfortable with the belief that God was going to incinerate them one day if they failed to believe you? How did you reconcile those two thoughts?
  I am not talking about sharing things that were pleasant to you that you might miss. I am talking about sharing a behind the scenes view that you REALLY had of potential converts....those people "in the world". What lies did YOU tell them in your effort to win them over? Yes, former witness are victims of a great deception, but the unique thing is that they all participated in the victimization as well. Why not turn that into a tremendous tool?
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  119

  Could U Please Cite Some Personal Interesting Observations About The Truth?

  by minimus in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  for anyone that looks at this thread, could you write something either profound or simply interesting so as to make the reader see the truth about "the truth"?

  ?

  1. 
  2. 
  3. 
• 

  Pickled

  Tired of the Hypocrisy wrote: “Lying is ok if you have a theocratic strategy motive for doing so.”
  
  I noticed this going on a lot. I realize that people tend to hide things or lie about them when they think others will think it is wrong. That is true everywhere, and in different religions different things are met with different degrees of disapproval. But it seemed that because the stakes are so high among the JW, if you are caught doing something wrong, that it created an atmosphere of deception as a permanent condition. Threats do not change an individual it just makes them better at hiding what they are actually doing.
  
  Rarely was the initial expression of thoughts the most honest one for that individual. I felt a sense of sadness at times because most of the time it took a very deliberate and gentle series of questions before my study partners would get closer to how they really felt about a certain issue. Sometimes we never got there at all.
  
  This probably isn’t the kind of deception to which Tired of the Hypocrisy was alluding. Possibly you meant the kind that causes that long pause and a scrambling of thoughts when the potential convert finds a portion of doctrine on their own that is still on the books, but is rarely mentioned anymore. Or maybe the outright lying that sometimes occurs when the JW is trying every method they have perfected over time to draw you in, in the hope that you will have become so convinced of this new belief system that the most outlandish of the doctrines or burdensome expectations will cease to matter when finally discovered. This must be what happens when faithfulness is reduced to numbers on a card. It’s odd that a husband can know you love him even when you have never given him a piece of paper indicating just how many hours you have been faithful.
  
  My personal observations left me feeling saddened many times. Because whenever a person makes a lifestyle of hiding their true thoughts, it creates a psychological split that is mentally very destructive and impossible to live with without a great deal of deep inner turmoil and anxiety. The most devastating aspect of this inevitable condition is that the members, at the same time, are left without an avenue of healing, recovery, or change apart from steps they hopefully take after leaving altogether. It seems to be an ongoing and frustrating cycle of searching for comfort within the very arrangement causing the turmoil.
  
  If you are currently studying this new religion, start expressing all of your thoughts about it now. If that is what you are genuinely thinking and you get a negative response, then it is up to you to change how you view it or to continue thinking it and live with the response. Don’t start down that path of lying to yourself, and lying to those around you in order to fit in. If you don’t believe it, say it. My advice would be, if you don’t believe it and it seems to not fit at all with who you are, leave it behind with the idea that you can always come back later. Lying to make something fit is the same as shopping for shoes with a new friend and buying a size 7, when you really wear a size 9, just so your new friend won’t think you have big feet. You will either have to secretly return them when your friend isn’t around, or live with the pain. The bigger issue here is what’s wrong with a size 9?
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  119

  Could U Please Cite Some Personal Interesting Observations About The Truth?

  by minimus in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  for anyone that looks at this thread, could you write something either profound or simply interesting so as to make the reader see the truth about "the truth"?

  ?

  1. 
  2. 
  3. 
• 

  Pickled

  I wondered while reading Don Cameron's book if the average Witness could openly profess to disregard 48 of the Watchtower's basic teachings of today, and still be considered a member in good standing.
  
  Clearly this would not be the case, and yet that is exactly what happened at their highest level.
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  119

  Could U Please Cite Some Personal Interesting Observations About The Truth?

  by minimus in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  for anyone that looks at this thread, could you write something either profound or simply interesting so as to make the reader see the truth about "the truth"?

  ?

  1. 
  2. 
  3. 
• 

  Pickled

  Thank you Don Cameron for writing your book "Captives of a Concept". If anyone reading this thread has not read it yet, it is an essential read. It is the clearest, most direct source of information about why the "Faithful and Discrete Slave" did not qualify to receive that appointment by Jesus Christ that I have ever read. His book outlines all the dates, references to watchtower literature, and comparisons to scripture that explains clearly this erroneous belief.
  
  If you are currently "studying" with the Jehovah's Witnesses and would like to consider a logical and easy to read argument that addresses the very foundations of their beliefs, this is the book to start with.
  
  I have researched and spent countless hours combing through Watchtower literature and have learned a great deal on my own. But what this book offers are solid ideas in one single book that I did not notice until I read Mr. Cameron's book, in spite of the months I spent researching. He presents core ideas, and ideas that go to the very heart of everything you are studying right now.
  
  The book is affordable and worth every penny.
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  119

  Could U Please Cite Some Personal Interesting Observations About The Truth?

  by minimus in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  for anyone that looks at this thread, could you write something either profound or simply interesting so as to make the reader see the truth about "the truth"?

  ?

  1. 
  2. 
  3. 
• 

  Pickled

  I'm glad you started this thread, Minimus. If two thirds of Jehovah's Witnesses are leaving their faith, and the claim is that in spite of that, their numbers are increasing, that means that there are a whole lot of people out there considering this belief system for the first time. Based on my own experiences of considering it and then deciding it was not what it appeared to be at first glance, this type of thread is really needed.
  
  What I desperately needed when I was first considering this religion, was for someone, anyone to offer me rational, logical perspectives that presented another side. However much I could understand the pain, anger, and the need for a cathartic "venting" by those who were tossed aside and felt betrayed, I just simply had never been in that same situation. I was at the beginning of a pathway and had never been all the way down that road and to the other side. I consider myself fortunate. I researched extensively and felt very alone in my quest. On the one side was mainstream Christianity with all of it's false teachings that had been so thoroughly pointed out to me. And on the other side was this new religion that seemed too good to be true. And squarely in the middle was my reasoning abilities, and this nagging feeling that I kept trying to ignore because I was becoming convinced that I was finding the truth after all.
  
  What I consider the most fortunate of all is that, because of my need to always question, I finally asked myself..."When did I start to believe that there are only those two options left in the entire Universe?"
  
  When did my thinking become so small?
  
  Freedom is not found in a prepackaged box delivered to your door. Freedom is knowing that you have the right in this vast universe to consider every and all options as long as you are not harming your neighbor in the process. If I am created....then my creator must have something in mind that doesn't require so many twists and turns to recognize.