IMBA, why not use the Society's standards for how you leave?
If you were a devout Catholic and your entire close knit and loving family had a long history of faithfulness to the Catholic church with all of your lives built around those teachings...you would be expected to work hard toward reaching that moment when you began to find all of that and all of them repulsive. You would be expected to leave them all behind in your quest for the truth regardless of what it cost and regardless of the pain it might cause you, or them.
You would be commended for your willingness to separate yourself from them, and encouraged to not look back but only for the sake of hopefully and eventually compelling some of them to also break away from everything they once knew and follow you to the Kingdom Hall.
You would be expected to become an Apostate of Catholicism, and an Apostate to your family. The pain or sorrow you felt would not be taken into consideration, and only your single minded faithfulness to these new realizations about the truth would be acknowledged. After all, looking back is a sign of a divided mind, and there is no time for grieving when there is so much work to do.
Pickled
JoinedPosts by Pickled
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41
Stuck in the "Truth"
by IMustBreakAway ini notice from comments posted that many here who post (and untold scores who lurk) are still "in".
perhaps their social / family circles are too constricted for freedom of mind, and or, they are too afraid to rock the boat.
or too young to strike out on their own and are dependent on jw parents for support.
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Pickled
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"Captives of a Concept" Don Cameron Interview
by Pickled inhere is a link to a youtube interview with don cameron, author of the book "captives of a concept" .
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xkgwzrhgi6m .
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Pickled
OTWO, I thought it was a really good interview also. I like the way the book is arranged too, very easy to read and understand.
You're welcome CoCo. When I first started studying the WTBTS teachings, I thought everything was so clear and well outlined. So I thought that it was meant to be viewed logically and in a way that could be followed step by step. But I was wrong. It is only meant to be followed in a way that is prearranged, and not designed at all in a way that can remain logical when exposed to the truth. Whenever an attempt is made to make a logical comparison, that is when every answer starts to form a giant circle, and each response becomes more and more vague with many twists and turns. If you persist, then Phase II begins, and that is when the listener begins to distract from the truth being presented by attacking your motives.
It seems that the teachings were designed to repel the truth. The methods are designed to effectively maneuver away from all logic and reason. The "Reasoning" book that is the bible for door to door ministry is designed to effectively offer a prearranged answer in the hope that the member will not be tempted to engage their own personal reasoning abilities. It makes it appear as though the minister is an empty vessel apart from a script that they have been given and memorized.
An example of this is if you ask if they believe that the Governing Body is the "faithful and discrete slave" as repeated so often in all of their literature, and based on Matthew 24....the answer will be YES.
Then if you ask if the date of that appointment occurred in 1919 as indicated clearly and repeatedly in all of their literature....the answer will be YES.
Then if you ask if that appointment was based on proper teachings (food) at the proper time....the answer will be YES.
Then if you ask if the teachings that Jesus was inspecting were the teachings leading up to and including 1919....the answer will be YES.
Then if you ask why then did Jesus approve those teaching if the Proclaimers book, as well as other places in their literature, has stated that many of those teachings during that time of the inspection were WRONG.....no answer.
Then you ask if they were not providing the proper food (teachings) at the proper time (in 1919 they still did not believe that Jesus' presence began in 1914, but instead in 1874) how could they have possibly qualified to receive that appointment......no answer.
Then you ask if part of those qualifications were to be able to recognize the master when he comes knocking, and if they did not even know at that time that he was knocking at all, how did they become approved without even being aware of the process.....no answer.
Then if you ask them how the WTBTS society is that "faithful and discrete slave" today when no other inspection occurred since 1919 when they were not providing the proper food....no answer.
This is when all the memorizing and all the circular reasoning begins and the hearer of these particular and obvious truths starts to use all the tools available to repel the truth. It is not the "truth" that is the goal, it is defending "The Organization" that is the goal regardless of what the actual truth may be. -
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"Captives of a Concept" Don Cameron Interview
by Pickled inhere is a link to a youtube interview with don cameron, author of the book "captives of a concept" .
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xkgwzrhgi6m .
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Pickled
Here is a link to a YouTube interview with Don Cameron, author of the book "Captives of a Concept"
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XKGWzrHgI6M -
41
Stuck in the "Truth"
by IMustBreakAway ini notice from comments posted that many here who post (and untold scores who lurk) are still "in".
perhaps their social / family circles are too constricted for freedom of mind, and or, they are too afraid to rock the boat.
or too young to strike out on their own and are dependent on jw parents for support.
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Pickled
IMBA, what is your own personal worst case scenario? I mean if you just walked out, what is the worst that can happen. I can see that you feel that it would be worse than sucking it up and staying, but what is that thing that is worse? Is it the loss of your family?
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41
Stuck in the "Truth"
by IMustBreakAway ini notice from comments posted that many here who post (and untold scores who lurk) are still "in".
perhaps their social / family circles are too constricted for freedom of mind, and or, they are too afraid to rock the boat.
or too young to strike out on their own and are dependent on jw parents for support.
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Pickled
I thought that was really funny too. LOL
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41
Stuck in the "Truth"
by IMustBreakAway ini notice from comments posted that many here who post (and untold scores who lurk) are still "in".
perhaps their social / family circles are too constricted for freedom of mind, and or, they are too afraid to rock the boat.
or too young to strike out on their own and are dependent on jw parents for support.
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Pickled
IMBA, I don't think this an issue of fault. At least not on your end. And yes, you do seem to be lonely right now, and wouldn't it be great if you didn't beat yourself up with blame at the same time? This religion you are in is designed to keep people in and not to allow anyone to exit without it taking a huge chunk out of their hide. It's kind of like Las Vegas in 2 ways....what happens here stays here....as well as the fact that the casinos are in the business of taking and not giving. That's how they stay open and keep cranking out a profit.
It sounds like you are going to need to get creative about finding people you can talk to in person. I wonder if former witnesses on this forum can share ways they branched out away from other JW in an effort to have those moments of talking openly and freely, and still remained JW for a time. Sounds like you need an outlet and there are so many here who have been exactly where you are now. Sometimes it takes a few days for people to get to a thread and post on it because of their schedule. You can do this. -
41
Stuck in the "Truth"
by IMustBreakAway ini notice from comments posted that many here who post (and untold scores who lurk) are still "in".
perhaps their social / family circles are too constricted for freedom of mind, and or, they are too afraid to rock the boat.
or too young to strike out on their own and are dependent on jw parents for support.
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Pickled
I got the impression that Witnesses prefer to not be alone in the boat if they feel it is about to sink.
It sounds like you feel a certain amount of confidence that another witness who may one day face a judicial committee and possibly lose their own family, would never rat you out as a way to prove that they are not the only horrible person in the group. Isn't possible expulsion the most dreaded thing because it comes at such a huge cost? Hasn't that same fear been used by governments, prisons, etc as a way to extract information about others who may also be committing similar "crimes"? Considering what you stated as your current goal to decide your exit date on your own, it sounds awfully risky. It also sounds like you are really needing to connect with someone who you can look in the eye, and with whom you can share your true thoughts and feelings without fear. This sounds so difficult to live out and I am so sorry you are in a religion that creates that state of being. -
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About me
by Bryce ini've been doing the home study with the jw's for almost a year now.
i've never attended the kingdom hall meetings because i didn't want to -- i used my parents' objection as an excuse.
but now i'm at a problem - i believe more as the christadelphians believe, and i no longer want to do the study with the jw's i know.
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Pickled
Bryce, I also studied with the Witnesses and decided that it was not for me. I don't understand the individual who is claiming that he has a lot of Witness friends who are content with spending time with him without the intention of "Witnessing" to him. That is a large group of unusual Witnesses all in one place. The highest priority of every Witness is to be able to record hours on a time card. Those hours are turned in, and are viewed as a measure of how faithful they have been. No witness wants to be viewed as unfaithful because that causes others to begin talking about them in a negative way, and those conversations can lead to a sheparding call that will be the talk of the Kingdom Hall.
Every witness has to spend a lot of hours every week in an effort to increase those numbers on their time card. That is a lot of work and it often takes away from other things that they would rather be doing like spending time relaxing or time with their family. So to think that they would be willing to spend that time with you and not get time card credit for it, instead of spending it doing other things that have had to neglect, is quite a stretch.
Noni is exactly right. She is not speaking out of bitterness or some warped thinking now that she is an ex-JW. The Witnesses spending time with you will be very reluctant to admit that they have recorded every minute of that time on a time card. They are generally reluctant to admit anything at all that would create a crack in the facade. This is not a sinister motive I am talking about....it is just a fact. When you are straightforward and state clearly that you would still like to spend time with them, however you would like to take a break from any discussions about the Bible, they will stop spending time with you until you change your mind. There will no longer be a benefit to spending time with you.
Standing up for yourself may be a very important lesson you need to learn. It sounds as though this is an area in your life that maybe could use a little strengthening. It will come up over and over in your life in different ways and this particular time happens to be easier than you are imagining. Easy because all you have to do is continue to state your true thoughts and they will do the leaving for you. -
119
Could U Please Cite Some Personal Interesting Observations About The Truth?
by minimus infor anyone that looks at this thread, could you write something either profound or simply interesting so as to make the reader see the truth about "the truth"?
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Pickled
If you are currently considering the teachings of the Watchtower Bible and Tract Society, or are already studying with the Witnesses, you are among a large number of potential new converts. You may be studying these teachings because you really want to know more about the Bible, and what you have been offered seems to answer many of your questions so far. However, if you are reading this website you are probably experiencing an internal struggle and may not know exactly why.
If you believe that your priority is to learn about the Bible and about God, then sometimes it is a good idea to start by looking at a broader more panoramic view.
When Moses had a conversation with an angel of God who appeared in a flaming thorn bush, he was given instructions about taking a message to the Pharaoh of Egypt. Moses did not want to carry out this task and gave reasons why. This account begins in the third chapter of Exodus. One of the things that offer a broad picture in this account is the fact that, even though God’s angel was angry about Moses’ apprehension, there apparently was still room for dialog and even negotiation. This message that Moses was supposed to take to Egypt seemed to be viewed as a very important message. So important was this message, in fact, that the angel was willing to take as much time and make whatever effort that was needed to insure that the message was delivered timely and accurately. The message was given, Moses had questions about it, and those questions were answered. Moses eventually delivered that message and it was clear to all those around him that God was confirming that message with His own abilities. Moses was fulfilling a role as a channel of communication between God and man, and God made sure that everything was aligned in a way that allowed Moses to effectively carry out that role.
Later in Numbers chapter 20, Moses is still acting in a role as a channel of communication between God and the people of Israel. There was a lack of water, and God tells Moses to speak to a crag in the rock so that water will come out. Moses is irritated and instead of speaking to the rock, he strikes it with his staff. God still kept up his end of the bargain and water came pouring out, but He also let Moses know that he would no longer be allowed to lead the children of Israel into the land He promised them.
Why such a stiff penalty for simply striking a rock that water was going to come out of anyway? It was because God was communicating with Moses clearly, directly, and in a way that He was communicating with no one else at that time. Moses was completely and entirely without an excuse for his actions. He could not claim he misunderstood. He could not claim that it was because of any reason, because of his unique role, other than his own personal decision to disregard what God had specifically told him to do. That is why there were stiff consequences.
There are numerous other examples in the Old Testament from Abraham to the Prophets that indicate that communication was a two-way street and God was willing to listen as well as speak to those He was using as a channel of communication in order to insure that the task or message was timely and accurate.
In the New Testament God began speaking through His son, Jesus Christ, and then as indicated in Luke 12:12 and in John 14:26, He sent His holy spirit to be a direct teacher, a voice, an instructor, and a guide in all things, and would let them know exactly what to say, and when to say it. This is the method that was used by God to insure that the message He intended was heard just as clearly as when He spoke to Moses and the Prophets. You will be taught that the members of the Governing Body in Brooklyn, NY are fulfilling that same role as a channel of communication between God and man as did the Apostles in the New Testament and by directly following the guidance of that same Holy Spirit.
You will also be taught that there is a new phenomenon that began occurring in the recent past that neither Moses and the Prophets, nor the Apostles ever experienced. The phenomenon is called “Old Light vs. New Light.” In spite of the claim that the God of the Governing Body is the same God of Moses and the Prophets, and in spite of the claim that the Governing Body is led by the same Holy Spirit that led the Apostles, there seems to be an expansive difference in the timeliness and accuracy of the messages claimed to have been received from the same source. The term “Old Light” is a term used to indicate that the first message was wrong. “New Light” is the term used to indicate that an attempt was made to correct a previous misunderstanding. However, at any time the “New Light” can become “Old Light” and vice-versa. Because of the role that Moses filled as a channel of clear communication between God and man, at no time did God or any of His angels offer these optional terms to him.
There may be a temptation to disregard the strict standards that Moses was expected to follow, simply because that was the Old Testament and God, of course, began to speak through other means in the New Testament. After all, the anointed are following New Testament standards and not those of the Old Testament. So let’s look at the standards for accuracy in the New Testament, in Acts chapter 5….
Their names were Ananias and Sapphira. -
119
Could U Please Cite Some Personal Interesting Observations About The Truth?
by minimus infor anyone that looks at this thread, could you write something either profound or simply interesting so as to make the reader see the truth about "the truth"?
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Pickled
MsMcDucket, I may be reading what you wrote incorrectly, but you indicated that they brought you both a meal from a restaurant and invited you both to a Memorial service. This must not be the type of exclusion you are talking about.