(I have been trying to post this for a few days now but every time I tried there was an error message, which I was told the system administrator was aware of. Am now trying without any formatting. If you are reading this, I have obviously now been successful!) Thanks to everyone who replied, very interesting. WTWizard - I understood when you advised me to avoid reading WT mysticism except for entertainment purposes. I would find this whole cult extremely amusing and high comedy if it wasn't so tragic and people's lives weren't being devastated. I guess there must also be some people who find happiness in being a JW, but judging by the number of people using this forum and the comments I've read, there are too many other people getting badly hurt. I picked up two books from a second hand bookstall....""You can live forever in Paradise Earth" and "Mankind's search for God". Reading these I do find myself laughing out loud but with a note of despair in there somewhere that apparently educated people are deluded enough to write such nonsense. The more I read, the more I wonder if the people at the top are actually not deluded but are cynically manipulative and don't believe a word of what they write. Maybe they're just playing a game to see how long they can stay in power and how many people they can convince that 'airy nothing' is fact. WTWizard was concerned that in being curious about JW beliefs if I did not have a solid grounding in science, I could easily become sucked in. Thanks for your concern but fortunately there's no danger as I am very solid, confident and comfortable in my humanist philosophy. I believe in trying to make the world a better place in any way I can, putting family, friends and those in my community first, and as I go, aiming to fulfil my own potential for happiness and good in a positive way. I don't need a god for this. Formerly as a teenager I was involved in a fundamentalist Brethren church which was not altogether a negative experience as it now enables me to understand what is meant by a religious experience and I also learnt some bible history which is useful in pub quizzes.... I was the only one who could spell Nebuchadnezzar recently!!! I think religion also helped me avoid some of the worst excesses of teen behaviour, although I still had a good time, but apart from that I am really glad to be out of it. I now don't believe in anything that can't be proved by science, am not superstitious, have no interest in new age mumbo-jumbo I find it frustrating how many highly intelligent people believe in feng shui, numerology and astrology etc. So I am in no danger of getting hooked into the JW beliefs myself while investigating and being curious . However I can sadly see how my vulnerable 18 yr old friend is being seduced by it. Good news though that she is questioning. My way of thinking is that Truth corresponds to ascertainable fact and falsehood doesn't. Based on the methods of getting to the truth in a court of law, I try to weigh up both sides of an issue and form opinions based on 'ascertainable facts' where possible, and go by the 'balance of probability' where facts are not black and white. Nothing I've read about Jehovah's Witnesses beliefs so far has passed my Truth test. I am aimimg to get my friend to use her head rather than be led by her emotions. I feel however that I should not laugh at anyone who is taken in by the Watchtower fantasy. BluesBrother, you said " My only excuse for swallowing it is that I learned it as a child and what you learn then stays with you. Please don't feel guilty, you don't need to look for excuses for why you believed. American Indians had a saying....no-one should judge another until they've walked a week in his moccasins. I am reading a great book called "Religion Explained" by Pascal Boyer which examines the origins of religion and overtakes all the previously held notions like "Religion began because people couldn't understand natural phenomena so they invented god to make sense of things". The author explains that there are good scientific and evolutionary reasons why human brains have developed to believe weird things. It is definitely not a symptom of lack of intelligence. Thank you for your explanations of points I wanted to know BluesBrother, and Eyes Open your insights into how you felt about Paradise when you were a believer helped me understand a lot. I was very interested in Alex's statement that evolution and the history of life on earth is the bottom tier card in the Dubs' house of cards of doctrines and beliefs. That was my instinct too and is an area I want to discuss with my friend. I just wanted to ask, how do I find the article you recommended? I would be interested to read it, and found a website called Freeminds.com but after that I was lost. Incidentally at the risk of showing my ignorance, where does the term "dub" come from? Is it an American word for 'gullible person', an abbreviation for something or is it specific JW jargon? I vaguely thought it was a kind of reggae.... By the way WTWizard, talking of words, I loved your word "longage" in the context of the opposite of "shortage" - if we all start using it maybe one day it'll be in the English dictionary. There's definitely a longage of interesting people on this forum! Heather
Posts by HB
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16Will the logic and science of this world apply on Paradise Earth?
by HB ini feel a little stupid asking this question as i don't for one millisecond believe there is any possibility of a future paradise on earth, but i'm trying to work out how the people who do believe it visualise it and expect it to be.
i suppose it's pointless to expect believers to have rational answers about such an irrational concept, but i'm trying to understand their thinking.
(being a complete newcomer to all things jw, i am learning a lot of fascinating stuff from this website.
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Will the logic and science of this world apply on Paradise Earth?
by HB ini feel a little stupid asking this question as i don't for one millisecond believe there is any possibility of a future paradise on earth, but i'm trying to work out how the people who do believe it visualise it and expect it to be.
i suppose it's pointless to expect believers to have rational answers about such an irrational concept, but i'm trying to understand their thinking.
(being a complete newcomer to all things jw, i am learning a lot of fascinating stuff from this website.
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HB
The post I want to make failed again, anyone any ideas what I can do?
(Just thought, is it anything to do with the fact that I wrote the reply in a word doc and then copied and pasted it into the reply box? I'm not very technical!)
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Will the logic and science of this world apply on Paradise Earth?
by HB ini feel a little stupid asking this question as i don't for one millisecond believe there is any possibility of a future paradise on earth, but i'm trying to work out how the people who do believe it visualise it and expect it to be.
i suppose it's pointless to expect believers to have rational answers about such an irrational concept, but i'm trying to understand their thinking.
(being a complete newcomer to all things jw, i am learning a lot of fascinating stuff from this website.
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HB
OK that went through so I wonder why there is a problem with my other email?
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Will the logic and science of this world apply on Paradise Earth?
by HB ini feel a little stupid asking this question as i don't for one millisecond believe there is any possibility of a future paradise on earth, but i'm trying to work out how the people who do believe it visualise it and expect it to be.
i suppose it's pointless to expect believers to have rational answers about such an irrational concept, but i'm trying to understand their thinking.
(being a complete newcomer to all things jw, i am learning a lot of fascinating stuff from this website.
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HB
I have been trying to post a reply to this page for 3 days now but every time I get an error messagbe which says the administator is aware. I can't find a "contact us" option to enquire what the problem is.
I am just writing this to see if it will get through so I know if it's my specific email that is getting rejected or just any email that causes the problem.
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Will the logic and science of this world apply on Paradise Earth?
by HB ini feel a little stupid asking this question as i don't for one millisecond believe there is any possibility of a future paradise on earth, but i'm trying to work out how the people who do believe it visualise it and expect it to be.
i suppose it's pointless to expect believers to have rational answers about such an irrational concept, but i'm trying to understand their thinking.
(being a complete newcomer to all things jw, i am learning a lot of fascinating stuff from this website.
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HB
I feel a little stupid asking this question as I don't for one millisecond believe there is any possibility of a future Paradise on Earth, but I'm trying to work out how the people who do believe it visualise it and expect it to be. I suppose it's pointless to expect believers to have rational answers about such an irrational concept, but I'm trying to understand their thinking.
(Being a complete newcomer to all things JW, I am learning a lot of fascinating stuff from this website. I came to this forum a short while ago for the answer to one question; my question was answered and has helped me with a friend who was getting involved with Jehovah's Witnesses and that should have been that, but I found the forum so interesting that I find I keep coming back! I have struggled with some of the JW jargon and abbreviations that regular posters use but am slowly getting there with it. (But I still don't know what is meant by a boasting session.) But the whole subject of this cult now has me hooked, just in an academic sense..... no chance of me being converted!)
I have just read 'You can live forever in Paradise Earth'. It has the style of illustrations used in children's fairytale books, the real issues are not mentioned and I was left with more questions than answers. I would be interested to hear from someone how the following points are dealt with by the faithful, if indeed they are even thought about.
As I understand it no one will die in paradise. I also gather that people will still live in families and have children, so it means couples will still have sex, (or will all children be virgin births?). But either way, after a certain length of time if no-one dies and sex continues, paradise will inevitably get over-crowded. How is that explained?
Will animals die? If not how will the world not be quickly overrun with rabbits or rats etc, in view of the fact that apparently all predators and carnivores will be eating straw and dust?
Lions will lie down with lambs so will the canine teeth of meat eaters disappear and their digestive processes change magically in a flash, or (dare I say it?), will their bodies gradually evolve to deal with their new diet?
I read that on Paradise Earth "A man's flesh will become fresher than in his youth" Job 33:25. There is a picture of two elderly people who have been transformed into attractive young people aged about 20. I f everyone is young in body they will presumably also have the hormones of young people, which would mean all adults would have reproductive capacity, and babies could be being born to people aged 5000+ years old! Your Great Grandparents or whatever could look the same age as you and you could babysit their child who would technically be your Great Grand Uncle. Genealogists would never cope with drawing up a family tree.
Also it would be so confusing for going on dates as a real 20 year old boy seeing a pretty girl he fancied could not be sure if she was actually hundreds of years older than him. Sex will presumably only happen within a marriage but it does stretch the imagination from the perspective of this world trying to picture people being on earth for say 10,000+ years but staying faithful to one person for all that time and for infinity beyond that!
(No more soap operas on TV then, as they revolve around infidelity and vices of every kind!)
Thinking of childbirth, presumably there will either have to be changes in a woman's physiology (oh no, not bigger hips!?) or a change in the size of the fetus at full term, as there will apparently be no more pain (Revelation 21:3 4). If childbirth was easy and painless, the birthrate would soar.
It goes beyond my imagination to picture a world where there is no sorrow or hurt, If life is even remotely like it is now, how are people not going to have accidents? Are they saying that noone will ever trip over or cut their finger or fall off a ladder or worse? Or are they saying you could lose a leg in an accident but it won't hurt?
Chapter 10 of the Paradise Earth book states that people will all live in comfortable homes and shows a picture of a big house with a large garden and perfect lawn. It also says "all will have pleasant work to do".
The pictures only show smiling happy people wandering through fields of flowers by beautiful lakes or rivers with waterfalls and unspoilt countryside in the background, but presumably lots of people will have to be mining for raw resources and working in factories to manufacture the building materials to make the houses, etc.
No one in the pictures is shown working at a sewage farm dealing with the waste from the houses. The people are all wearing nice clothes which must have been manufactured, their hair is neatly cut so someone must be working in a steel factory to produce the scissors to cut the hair.
None of the pictures in JW literature show cars, aeroplanes or trains; no one is shown sitting in an office or using a computer. How is society going to function? I assume it won't revert back to the level of technology known in bible days, as otherwise nice modern houses as shown in the book couldn't be built, but if people will still have the luxuries of modern life like fridges, electric lights, gas heating, cookers and clean tap water, then there will have to be universities set up to produce clever people who can design these things. So policy on education will have to change.
It seems there would still inevitably be a working class, a middle class and a ruling class. If people learn to completely eliminate their jealousy of others who have nicer jobs, or are content to live in a communist style system where all classes have the same priveleges and lifestyle, they will not be human in the sense that we understand the term today.
Jehovah is supposed to be going to provide the perfect climate for food to be grown, which means it will have to rain quite a lot, so I can't quite see how everything will be perfect. It will have to rain on someone's picnic.
I'm sure there are a million and one other illogicalities with the idea of a perfectly happy world and I have to say the idea of living forever in a world where everyone is obedient doesn't really tempt me even if it was possible!
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question - scriptures that prove a paradise earth
by atpeace ini was hoping for some help on proving that a paradise earth is in fact a true teaching.
i've only found 3 that use the word "paradise" - but not sure if it refers to an earthly paradise.. thanks!.
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HB
'Paradise Earth' was a concept many hundreds of years before the bible was written.
The Ancient Egyptians described a future golden age in which all countries would be united and the gods would live in peace on earth wth humans.
In reality the Golden Age concept has for centuries been promoted by power hungry megalomaniacs who wanted to rule the world.
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Patriotism?
by HB ini added a couple of questions i would like to know the answers to in a topic that has now become buried on the back-list, so as they haven't been picked up i am trying again by starting a new topic.
(if the forum administrator is reading this, would it not be better to use the common system that if new posts are added to old topics, they jump to the head of the list?
sorry if i am going over old ground but i am new here.).
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HB
I added a couple of questions I would like to know the answers to in a topic that has now become buried on the back-list, so as they haven't been picked up I am trying again by starting a new topic.
(If the forum administrator is reading this, would it not be better to use the common system that if new posts are added to old topics, they jump to the head of the list? Sorry if I am going over old ground but I am new here.)
My questions were:
1. I understand JWs are not prepared to fight for their country, work for the Government or local authorities, serve on a jury, vote, salute the flag or honour national traditions,etc. This is apparently an attempt to be 'in the world but not of it'.
So do JWs accept state pensions and social security payments and benefits? I understand they pay taxes so I assume they do accept state benefits with a clear conscience, but it seems very selfish to just pick and choose the bits of the system they like and leave out the bits they don't. Taxes are required by law but accepting benefits is not obligatory. I do understand the rights of conscientious objectors, but JWs don't make an effort to positively contribute to society in any other way I can see.
Also, there is a new issue in today's world, as in the West we are all part of the "War on terror". This involves helping to defend our respective countries in various ways such as watching out for suspious looking bags left on railway stations etc. Taking the JW anti-war stance to it's logical conclusion, if a JW saw a suspicious package and did his moral duty and reported it to the authorities, would he technically be participating in the "war on terror"?
2. Although JWs do not vote, I assume many of them must have private political views. Are these ever expressed amongst the congregation in conversation, or do they carefully avoid all mention amongst themselves? (If so it must be very difficult to have an interesting genuine conversation!)
And theoretically, if a political Party proposed in their election manifesto to ban belonging to the Watchtower Society, would the Governing Body then change its mind and order members to vote in the election to try to keep that Party out of power?
I would be interested to hear from any ex JWs how these points are viewed.
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JW policy on Girl Guides and Scouts?
by HB ini have come to this forum on the recommendation of an ex jehovah's witness who has been very helpful.
although he has given me some useful information, he suggested i post my question on here too to see what others have to say.
being new, i am not sure if i have chosen the right topic heading but if not forgive me!.
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HB
Thank you once again for all the helpful and interesting replies.
I have no idea what a boasting session is in terms of Jehovah's Witnesses; it sounds a bit ungodly, but presumably it's not an occasion where everyone gets to tell everyone else how brilliant they are or how much their car cost etc!
My friend asked her Elders about being a Brownie Leader and was told she could not be a member of GirlguidingUK. They did not completely ban her from helping but she must not be a member.
There is the possibility that she can be a non-member Unit Helper, which is what last week she thought she would do, but I'm not sure whether it is just her interpretation that this would be ok or whether the Elders specifically said this.
She was obviously very disappointed as she has nearly finished her Leadership Qualification, and to my surprise, tonight she chose to attend a training session tonight which is a requirement of this qualification. So she is obviously reluctant to give up being a warranted leader and wearing her uniform after all the effort she has put in.
We discussed things after the training and I said what a shame it would be if she was not able to finish the Qualification, as she only has one more thing to do before she would be awarded her Leader's warrant. When I mentioned that when applying for jobs it's very useful to put on a CV (resume) that you are a Guider that made her think. I pointed out that employers are keen to take on people with leadership skills and impressed by community volunteering. She is currently out of work and finding it difficult to even get an interview as she has been honest on application forms and mentioned she has suffered with depression.
So this tipped the balance and although she is not considering leaving the JW church she has decided to ignore the Elders and finish the Qualification to get her warrant. She will just not mention it to anyone in the congregation. She does not personally see a problem with helping the Brownies as she will only be an Assistant Leader and can just miss out on the few occasions when there is a conflict.
So this is good news for me.
I hope it is the case that if the Elders find out, they will not want to put strong pressure on her at this stage to conform to their doctrines as they might lose her from their congregation altogether. For her part my friend assumes the Watchtower Society is a benign, loving organisation and that she will always have freedom to choose her own level of commitment which I see from this site will probably not be the case in future.
I suppose it wil only be a matter of time, but for now things are not going too badly.
Here in the UK patriotism and nationalism is not so strong as in the USA, but there is discussion of bringing in a new law which will require all foreign immigrants who are applying for citizenship and also all school leavers (16 year olds) to attend a ceremony where they pledge loyalty to the Queen and country. If it ever becomes law, that will not be popular with the JWs but presumably the will apply for exemption.
I have two questions relating to this issue:
1. Do JWs accept state pensions and social security payments and benefits? If so how can they reconcile that in their conscience with their anti-patriotic stance?
2. I gather that JWs do not vote. Theoretically, if a political party proposed in their election manifesto to ban belongong to the JW faith, would JW members then vote in the election to keep that party out of power?
Regards,
Heather
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JW policy on Girl Guides and Scouts?
by HB ini have come to this forum on the recommendation of an ex jehovah's witness who has been very helpful.
although he has given me some useful information, he suggested i post my question on here too to see what others have to say.
being new, i am not sure if i have chosen the right topic heading but if not forgive me!.
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HB
Thank you to all those who have replied, I am shell-shocked to read how pernicious and negative the whole watchtower Organsation is - the more I hear about it the more determined I am to try to keep my friend away from them.
Seeing as everyone seems to be in agreement that the two Organisations are not compatible, I am hoping that will be my lever as I'm sure my friend will be seriously unhappy to give up helping the Brownies which she enjoys, in favour of going around the houses trying to convert people. I will take up the suggestion of telling her to go to the Elders and asking direct about their policy, as if I tell her, she may not belive me, but if they do, there is no doubt.
I'm just wondering what happened before the internet when there was no obvious place to turn to for advice in these circumstances! Its amazing what power the web has - in this case it might be that because of you kind people, a whole life can be turned round. Lets hope so!
Thanks again not only on my behalf and my friend's (although she doesn't yet know about you), but also on behalf of the Brownies and Guides!
Best wishes
Heather
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JW policy on Girl Guides and Scouts?
by HB ini have come to this forum on the recommendation of an ex jehovah's witness who has been very helpful.
although he has given me some useful information, he suggested i post my question on here too to see what others have to say.
being new, i am not sure if i have chosen the right topic heading but if not forgive me!.
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HB
Hi there,
I have come to this forum on the recommendation of an ex Jehovah's witness who has been very helpful. Although he has given me some useful information, he suggested I post my question on here too to see what others have to say. Being new, I am not sure if I have chosen the right topic heading but if not forgive me!
I have no involvement personally with JWs but have a young friend who is currently undergoing Watchtower Bible study sessions and working towards Baptism. Briefly she is 20 years old and a very nice person but has had difficult problems in her past which have left her vulnerable and desperately seeking for something to believe in.
I first met her when she was 10 and a Guide in our village (I should mention that I am a Guide Leader in the UK, and Guides is the equivalent of Girl Scouts for those of you in the USA. Brownies are young Guides aged 7 to 10).
When my friend was about 16, I arranged for her to come and help at a Brownie Pack and that has been mutually very helpful and she is currently going through the training to be a Brownie Leader herself. The Brownies love her and it has given her enormous self confidence.
She only relatively recently got involved with the JWs and does not have any family connections to them. She explained to the other Brownie Leaders that she would not be able to participate in helping with making Mother's Day cards, Easter crafts or attend any traditional ceremonies held in the local Churches such as Remembrance Service for soldiers who died in the Wars etc. But she believes that there is no problem with her being a member of both Guiding and the Watchtower Organisation.
Guiding is a multifaith organisation and the only requirement of membership is to make the Guide Promise. The words include promising to love MY god, which means more or less any other religion from Muslim to those who worship nature can say the words.
This is the Promise she has already made and as a member of GirlguidingUK will be expected to uphold and help the Brownies to understand:
I promise that I will do my best:
To love my God,
To serve the Queen and my country,
To help other people
and
To keep the Guide Law.(The 6 Guide Laws are not controversial, just general requirements like being considerate etc )
She can change the word "God" to "Jehovah", but then I understand that she is not allowed to pledge to serve her country.
I don't think she has yet given serious consideration to this point, and it seems her teachers are being less than honest about what will be required of her. Am I right that they save the most difficult life-style changing requirements until after the Baptism?
From the perspective of the Guide Association, she could be a non-member Unit Helper, which would avoid her having to make the Promise, but still enable her to help with the Brownies. However the ex JW who I mentioned earlier tells me that the Elders of her congregation will not even allow this involvement once she is Baptised.
The only concern I would have if she does find a way around belonging to both organisations is whether some of the parents of the Brownies would have a problem with a leader being a JW. I am pretty sure that she would not try to convert the girls and anyway she is not the leader in charge, so there would be little opportunity for this as there would always be other leaders around.
I would be grateful to hear if anyone has any experience or knowledge on this subject. Has anyone heard of a JW being a Scout or member of a similar club?
Many thanks,
Heather