Posts by HB

20

Every time I see one of them loving their kids, I think....

by jambon1 in

jw
friends

every time i see photos of new jw parents cuddling up to their new babies.. every time i see people giving the parents new baby cards & gifts.. every time i see them having fun with their children.. i think to myself; 'you would shun your kids' .

if they don't end up being jw's.

if they simply publicly declare that they don't believe.

HB

Earlier this year, I had a JW mother and daughter call at the door. Although I mostly spoke to the mother, my thought was mostly to plant some seeds in the daughter’s mind as she was about 14 which is the age where teens often start to think for themselves.

We interspersed discussing religion with some sociable small talk and I started the conversation by asking the reasons why they believed the JWs had the truth and then countered with explanations of why I would certainly not want to belong to their religion even if I did believe in a god.

I was amazed that they stayed as long as they did (about half an hour) as I was laying into JW beliefs and practices with quite a strong iron fist, but in a very friendly and polite way. (I've never been in a KH or studied with JWs, so it was probably unexpected on their part to meet someone who wasn't an apostate who knew lots of details about their organisation).

On quite a few points the mum became tight lipped, agitated and had no answer, but the daughter’s reaction was the most interesting….. she was literally wide eyed with her mouth slightly open as she listened to the conversation, especially about the flood and the Australian Royal Commission (which I suggested they should google to see their governing body member being deceitful).

I guess the daughter was probably more used to her mum confidently leading the discussion and being ready with answers to all questions rather that flailing around on the defensive with no logical answers.

The most shocking point I left till near the end of our chat as I thought it might terminate the discussion. I had brought the daughter into the conversation a couple of times in general chit chat to ask about school and her future plans.

I complimented the mum on having an intelligent and beautiful daughter but said that I was horrified to know that if, in a few years’ time, the daughter decided she didn’t want to be part of the JW religion any more, her parents would be expected to shun her. I calmly said that I personally thought that was a disgusting and inhumane practice and told her that I have a daughter too and couldn’t comprehend how anyone could be part of a religion which accepted this. The mum was lost for words to start with but then mumbled about it being a loving thing to do, but I could tell by the way both were looking down and squirming that they were both highly embarrassed.

It may have been a rather shocking and insensitive thing to say with the daughter listening, but I wanted to get her to think about the reality of her religion, and also surreptitiously put the thought in her mind that leaving is an option for the future.

12

Even Non-JW's Recall 1975

by snugglebunny in

jw
friends

last night.

pub quiz.

12 teams, somewhere in darkest england.. category: eternal flame.

HB

I have never been a JW, nor any of my family, but I knew about 1975 because when I was a teenager, my parents had a young JW employee who came to work for the family business in the late 1960s.

It was a plant nursery and the employee explained he would need to know how to grow things in the paradise that would exist when the current world order ended.

In December 1974 he handed in his notice, telling my parents that he was sad that he would not see them again and begged them to come to the KH, but they were not the least bit interested or worried. He was very socially awkward and never spoke to my sister or me and kept his eyes lowered if we passed by or brought him a cup of tea.

I assume he did full time door knocking during 1975. His parents sold their large house and donated the money to the Watchtower and all the large family moved into a caravan.

Needless to say, in January 1976, he came to ask for his job back, but he rarely spoke about his religion after that.

I recall my parents laughing with their friends at how crazy his ideas were, and although I had no more brushes with JWs until 2008 (when a young friend was sucked in so I joined this site for advice), I never forgot the date of 1975.

17

Another trinity thing

by Mozzie in

i have gone through the ones on here, i have read so much about it and everyone seems to have a different idea as to what the creed actually came up with in the sense of explaining it, religious leaders from most denominations seem to try to explain it and are all different, it does your head in just trying to read half their stuff.

when i was going door to door, i knew how to argue against it, but now trying to learn about it.. i was reading an article of the net about this and how christ emptied himself of all deity and that, but with all the statements made and arguments to and for it, one question was brought up.

when jesus was asked by his disciples about the time of the end, jesus replied neither i nor the angels know the hour, only the father.

HB

I have come across various viewpoints, but they mostly fall into two camps:

1. Jesus IS NOT identical to God but is part of the Godhead in the way that a human son is part of his father. They share genes plus physical, emotional and mental characteristics, but they think and act independently.

2. Jesus IS God, i.e. he is fully one and the same ‘being’ as God and the reason there are separate names is to distinguish the part of God the father who remained in Heaven while his alter ego Jesus the Son was on earth. In this case, it appears that God decided to split himself into two different 'beings' by begetting a son. He can thereby appear in two places at once and his two personas can act autonomously to each other, but remain the same entity.

Another analogy for the first scenario could be a band comprising a guitarist, a bassist and a drummer. The word ‘band’ is a singular item grammatically although in this case it’s also a trio. We think of it as one thing, however its constituent members are separate independent beings. The band members each make a different sound, but to make music, they have to be in harmony with each other and keep to the same rhythm and timing.

It's much harder to find an earthly analogy/metaphor for the second scenario, especially bearing in mind Jesus allegedly existed before the universe was created. Conjoined twins later separated doesn’t work as there are two distinct individuals involved with that. Nor does genetic cloning fit as the offspring is not ‘as one’ with the parent, he/she is merely identical genetically. I'd be interested to know if anyone has any suggestions that are not sci-fi or mythology.)

In either scenario, people tend to only focus on Jesus but what about the third part of the Trinity, the Holy Spirit? Is it simply God’s consciousness, his brain and thoughts and wishes, or is he/she/it a separate but closely linked entity which God controls and sends to do his bidding?

If the former, why not just make the godhead a duality, why a trinity? If the latter, why not give the Holy Spirit a personal name?

Or could it be that humans invented God and later added the idea of ‘three in one’ following other earlier myths, traditions and superstitions? Trinity appears to imbue the deity with greater majesty, power and mysticism and the concept is great PR - “buy one, get two free”!

34

So Today Was My Wife's First Ever Birthday Party

by dubstepped in

she turned one today, and 36 earlier this week.

we planned a big party, big for two people that have never thrown a party before.

we rented a church fellowship hall because 1. it was nice and big and affordable and 2. it was kind of awesome to throw a party in a place we would have never ventured in our previous life.

HB

Lovely to hear about your wife's party, Dubstepped. Thought you might enjoy hearing about another party I organised for an ex JW poster on this site who was helping me to get another friend of mine out of the cult back in 2008. (I have never been a JW).

I discovered he had never had (or been to) a birthday party which seemed all wrong to me. He was due to turn 38, so I arranged for him to come to visit our house on the day, encouraging him to believe it would just be a low key family meal. But instead I had arranged a surprise '8th' birthday party, with all the trimmings.

He was single so I had secretly arranged for several of my young single girl friends to turn up. When he'd recovered from the shock and we'd pinned on his oversized badge saying "8 today", he quickly got into the party spirit, although he said afterwards it did feel very odd when he'd never been the centre of attention before, especially as he was the only man. (My husband went and hid in the spare room!)

The birthday tea included classic children's party food such as chocolate spread sandwiches, cheese and pineapple on sticks, crisps, sausage rolls, pizza wedges, party rings, chocolate fingers, jelly and ice cream etc, washed down with lemonade and Pepsi.

Everyone wore party hats and we used party themed decorated paper plates with matching paper tablecloth and serviettes, and of course the birthday boy had to blow out his 8 candles on the cake while we sang the traditional song.

After tea, we played traditional party games, including pass the parcel, pin the tail on the donkey, blind man's buff etc. There was a compilation of 80s cheesy pop songs playing on the CD, and everyone gave a small fun present suitable for an 8 year old.

There was a great photo of my exJW friend on the sofa surrounded by pretty girls making a fuss of him!

Then of course at the end, everyone was given a little party bag to take home.

On a serious note, I think it is very sad that JW children miss out on birthdays when they are young. Although our adult children's party was lots of fun, it's impossible to make up later for all the missed, self-esteem building childhood experiences of feeling special for a day.

51

Help needed: transgender people and other unclear topics

by TeaBiscuit in

first of all, i am not quite sure whether this is the right place to ask my questions.

if this is not really appropriate, please tell me in advance, but i really did not know who to turn to, so i thought why not ask the internet... now, i know many of you are apostates and i'm not really looking for "leave it all behind you" answers, but really for experiences, thoughts and ideas... as well as maybe some verses if you can think of any.. anyway, first things first.

since this is very anonymous and i'd like to keep it that way, i will not give you my name, but still, i think some background info might be helpful.

HB

Hi TeaBiscuit,

From your posts, you seem to be a nice person, so I'm guessing your name refers to Nice biscuits which are designed to be dunked in tea?!

On the theme of Rebel8's link above, if you believe that God (or any other deity) designed or created animals, then there are several species whose biology and behaviour patterns could indicate that He is fine with transgender.

Or if you believe that God started life and left it to evolve, then we can at least say that He hasn't so far chosen to make these species extinct, which he could do if he didn't approve of sex changes.

The Clownfish (remember 'Finding Nemo') is an example..

It is a hermaphrodite which means that individuals are capable of changing their gender at some point in their life.

This does not imply that they are 'transgender' in terms of their psychology or that they suffer from the feeling of being born in the wrong body. They change merely for species survival reasons.

All babies are born male. They live in groups made up of all males and one female, and there is a hierarchy in each group with the female fish generally being the largest and most dominant fish in the group.

The 'alpha male' will be the only one to breed with the female and both take turns in guarding the eggs. If the female dies, this dominate male begins to gain weight and will change sex to become the female of the group.

This is just one example of many similar occurrences in nature, and as I said, although its not a parallel to human transgender issues, for Christians it could be used to show that the concept of sex change at least in the animal kingdom is presumably not abhorrent to God.

But for the Watchtower, it seems that anything and everything which is even remotely or distantly connected to 'sex' is automatically abhorrent and sinful.

33

78 to go and hopefully something good comes of it. Please do your part and sign up. Thanks

by Tenacious in

only 78 signatures are needed in order to send the request to the irs that they revoke or at the very least investigate the borg.

come'on guys, support it.. click here to support and sign up!.

HB

I signed, but not sure if it counts that I am in the UK?

People are asked to give their country as part of the signing process.

59

Sweet 16 - Happy Birthday to Us !

by Simon in

it's the forum's 16th birthday today!.

amazing that not only have we lasted so long but we're still thriving and growing.. thanks to all the people and often colorful characters who've contributed to the site over the years.

some are still here with us, some have since moved on, but all have touched each others lives in some way along our different journeys.. .

HB

I wonder how many lives JWN has (literally) saved?

26

Am l the only one.?The older l become the more hostile l become towards god.

by atomant in

they say you mellow out with age.maybe so but not in my case.l feel its an insult and degrading to us humans to have to live the way we do if there is a god.deep down l guess l do believe theres a god but lm having great difficulty trying to understand why things are the way they are.l dont need a bible bashing from anyone l just feel frustrated and helpless.l just battle on like everyone else but l get the feeling theres a whole lot more to our existence.

HB

YOUTH:

Lack of experience, idealism, heart rules head, lack of knowledge, gullibility, rose tinted glasses, seeking a mind blowing 'spiritual' experience and hoping this will teach us the ultimate 'truth' about life and its purpose. A hope for the future that if we work hard enough and follow a particular lifestyle, the answers to the meaning of life will eventually be revealed. The desire to be 'special' with esoteric knowledge not understood by many others, which we can then teach others to make ourselves feel important and superior. The feeling that we have the power to single-handedly change the world if we are determined enough or have sufficient faith.

AGE:

Rationality, scepticism about the supernatural due to lack of evidence, disbelief in any gods, especially caring and loving ones, frustration at not having found finding answers to the suffering in the world, a realisation of our own insignificance and acceptance of our ineffectiveness and impotence to make significant changes without the help of others.

(On second thoughts, sorry, perhaps 'impotence' was not a good choice of words in relation to age!)

But also a sense of contentment in realising there is no benefit in wishful thinking and relief and a sense of peace at coming to terms with reality.

Atomant, I dont know how old you are, but I very much understand the feelings you expressed in your opening post.

I have found that as a Humanist, my aim to do whatever little good I can wherever and whenever I can, gives satisfaction and meaning to my brief existence.

Although I abhor the amount of suffering in the world, my acceptance that there is no god or other supernatural power who is going to step in and change everything to take away the pain, injustice and inequalities in the world, leads to a deep sense of personal responsibility to do my bit.

And a belief in the collective responsibility of all of us humans to work together to make the necessary changes, not wait for an unknown invisible power to finally wave a magic wand.

Change for the better is frustratingly slow but it's speeding up in recent times. It's not a coincidence that the more secular our society has become, the more science and technology and society have had the freedom to make advances and improvements that have alleviated suffering.

There's still a long way to go, of course, but I fear the frustration and helplessness you expressed in your opening post will likely lead to cynicism and depression unless you can find a way to appreciate the positive progress we are making.

It's all too easy to focus on the headlines of bad news like terrorism and crime, but when you step back and compare life now to any time in history, it is clear that overall we are becoming more humane as a society as we lose belief in gods and take on belief in our own power to effect change for the good, in the long term.

21

Caitlyn Jenner has cognitive Dissonance

by sherrie11 in

i have just finished watching the latest episode of i am cait!

lol yes i watch it!!!

they were discussing politics.

HB

To be honest I think most of us experience brief moments of personal cognitive dissonance in every day life at one time or another whether or not we have been in a cult.

In childhood, it's a daily occurrence often encoraged by parents, eg, small children believe in Father Christmas, magic powers, guardian angels and fairy tales even though logic is clearly against it.

Even when parents insist something is not true, and the child understands logically it's not feasible, the emotion can remain very real and be more powerful than the facts, eg, monsters under the bed, wolves in the forest who could swallow your grandma whole, or an invisible spirit who will punish you if you are badly behaved.

My own childhood cognitive dissonance was not harmful overall..... contrary to all logic, I wanted to believe my teddy bears and dolls came alive and had a party when I was sleeping; and when I fell over, I wanted to believe my Mum's kiss really was magic and miraculously took away the pain of a scraped knee.

As an adult, I am by nature sceptical and try to be rational in all circumstances, but I sometimes catch myself even now.

Take the case of a family member whom you love and always assumed was kind and good and shared your own high principles and moral code. Then you catch them deliberately lying and cheating or being cruel. Cognitive dissonance can click in as you really don't want to believe your relative is flawed, and it allows you to make excuses for them and continue to feel and act as if they are innocent.

It's sadly too easy to use CD to hide facts and evidence from your conscious mind, especially when you have a lot of past history tied up with your belief and especially hard when admitting you were wrong will badly dent your pride and self esteem.

Thats why I deeply admire all you ex JWs who have destroyed the power of cognitive dissonance in your lives and had the humility to face the fact you were wrong, and admit it to others. Not easy but shows a great strength of character.

12

Why Were / Are the Best Rock Bands British?

by berrygerry in

so, roger daltrey and pete townshend were on jimmy fallon tonight as the who.. without disrespect to others, i would put the top 5 rock bands, not necessarily in order, as:.

led zeppelin.

pink floyd.

HB

As a rock music fan, and a proud Brit, in fairness I would like to give a thumbs up to a few US bands who made it to the "All time Greats" list as well: Bruce Springsteen, Aerosmith, Nirvana, R.E.M., Jimi Hendrix (although his drummer was English and his bassist was Irish!), ZZ Top, and a few others.

On a tangent, my friend who is an ex JW (and former poster on this site), is in a very good rock band which plays original music as well as covers for events, festivals, parties and pubs and clubs.

A couple of years ago, he was engaging in a polite exchange of emails about evolution and other doctrines with a local JW Elder (in his mid fifties) who had previously called at his door a couple of times and been invited in. (Luckily the Elder did not appear to notice the Sparlock mug on display!)

Seeing all the music equipment and guitars in the house, the conversation turned to music, which the Elder professed an interest in. My friend invited him to a forthcoming gig at a local social club.

To everyone's utter astonishment, the Elder and his wife turned up. I and my friends sat with them and were very welcoming, and, although the music was too loud to talk, we were able to chat between sets. I pretended I didn't know they were JWs. It was obviously not the kind of music they had been expecting. the wife looked like she had a swallowed a lemon and both were very uncomfortable in this worldly setting.

When I invited them to come and dance, it was as if Satan himself had appeared. Because we were all so friendly to them, they were in an awkward position, and they stayed out of politeness till half way through the second set, but I think the Killers "When you were Young" was the final straw and they made excuses and left. It was a bizarre experience.