Posts by 10p

Which is sort of what you'd expect, theocratic warfare and all - plus I know when I was a JW, I probably would have lied to make our religion seem more rational to outsiders. ugh. bad memories.

9

What's the average age of JW's worldwide?

by XPeterX in

jw
friends

and what's the percentage of men/women?just a thought.

10p

So, in the USA,

Age 18-29: 21%

Age 30-49: 39%

Age 50-64: 25%

Age 65+ : 14%

Which looks like a fairly normal distribution, with an average age around 40.

I do believe it will change in the future, but we have to remember that the internet has only been a common thing in the last few years ... it was only 10 to 15 years ago that it was a geek-only thing. In fact, I think web 2.0 technologies are the real threat to JWs - Facebook, Wikipedia etc.

It already quite obvious on Facebook that all the GB's counsel about social networking sites is falling on deaf ears - more and more JW's are Facebooking every day - in fact, in the under 39 age bracket, I know of very few JW's who aren't on Facebook.

That said, Facebook could actually prove to be beneficial to the GB, if they only knew how it worked! What better way to police the flock? "excuse me, sister White, we noticed you have a worldy (or worse, a DF'd) person in your Facebook friends list. Could we see you in the second school after the meeting?"

3

Non-profit law changes in New Zealand - anyone know what happened?

by 10p in

i'm in aussie now - but i remember a little while ago the gov in nz changed the rules for non-profits.

i saw a programme on tv the other night that said the scientologists reported income dropped from multi-millions to about 300k after the change.. i wondered if anyone knew what happened to the watch tower society's reported income after the law change?.

.

10p

I'm in aussie now - but I remember a little while ago the gov in NZ changed the rules for non-profits. I saw a programme on TV the other night that said the Scientologists reported income dropped from multi-millions to about 300k after the change.

I wondered if anyone knew what happened to the Watch Tower society's reported income after the law change?

28

Girls - what subject got you thinking?

by wannabefree in

jw
friends

reading the post "how long did it take you to leave", i can't help but be envious of those of you who refer to leaving as a "we" event.. i know it has been said that women tend to react to feelings/emotions along with logic, can you help me with ideas that got you to feel something was wrong?

what should i work on planting with my wife?.

thanks..

10p

I try not to give advice, because I'm really no authority, but at the same time, I'm hopelessly opinionated ... so please excuse me.

Firstly, I'd advise becoming a better husband and father than ever before. No women like being treated as "the weaker vessel" - so if you didn't already, totally drop that "husband is the head of the house" and treat your wife like a queen. (I'm presuming you have a good marriage and love each other dearly ... if your relationship wasn't so fantastic to start with, well, you might need to work on that first before worrying about the religion)

Secondly, you said:

" I have discussed different topics with my wife but she just seems to go on as though nothing was said on the subject. "

My wife acted the same. But she soaked in every word I said. What I had said ate away at her constantly. I wanted to drown her in facts, but actually, it was only a few basic things that worried her.

Very quickly, I realised she didn't want to listen ... she didn't want to talk about those things (which was no surprise ... I was the same back when I was a MS). So instead of trying to get her to listen to actual facts ... I addressed the fact that she wouldn't talk about these things. I would say things like "I can understand you disagreeing with me ... I feel we can still have a happy life together believing in different things. But its the fact that you won't even discuss these very serious issues ... that we can't talk about them and discuss them and express our opinions on them - that its all just shut up - THAT, I can't live with! That one of our children might need a blood transfusion to save his life, and I can't discuss with you why he damn well should have one, and why the Society is totally wrong on the blood issue."

But most of the time, I just tried to be a better man, a better father, a better husband.

It was about 2 years. And I consider myself lucky that it wasn't even longer.

In the end, with her head and heart full of questions and doubts about the religion, but still clinging to it, and still refusing to discuss "apostate" stuff - I had had enough. With a heart as heavy as lead, I told her I couldn't live like this anymore, and I was going to leave.

At that point she asked herself "why am I giving up this good marriage? what for? I don't even understand this religion. All these things my husband has said about it, and how it is wrong - and I don't even listen. I'm throwing away a good marriage and I don't even know why! How will I explain to my children as they grow up why mummy and daddy are divorced?"

And thats when she agreed to discuss these apostate things (remember, I had pretty much stopped talking about anything specific for a year and a half - I would only talk about "talking about it") She agreed to read "The Book" (Crisis of Conscience) and that was IT. She was mentally out ... she kept going to meetings for a while, just to give each side "a fair go", every time hoping something would be said from the platform that would make sense and make everything normal again (I felt the same way at first myself)

In the early days, I had told her that the JW founders - Rusell and Rutherford ... needed close examination. Russell was an apostate (he left his church and started Bible Students), and Rutherford was a drunkard and probably a womanizer. Of course, she thought this was just apostate propaganda - so she looked it up in the Proclaimers book herself. And that affected her a lot too.

So basically, she stewed over a lot of things over the 2 years. I did my best to make our marriage great - it was difficult not to be constantly on the attack, but in some ways, I needed to learn some restraint. I think by the end of the 2 years, my wife realised that OUT of the "truth" I had become a better father and husband, that our marriage had improved, that I hadn't ended up smoking, on drugs, cheating on her, worshipping satan or any of those things they make out like people do when they leave the "protection of Jehovah's organisation."

When the elders came over to have a meeting with me (I was VERY careful not to do or say anything incriminating to anyone I couldn't trust 100% - so it was just a visit of concern that I hadn't gone to any meetings or put in a report for a few months) they had nothing helpful to say. I basically told them I had doubts, and that I couldn't just ignore them - that would be BLIND faith, and I wanted my faith to be solid, based on reason. I said I couldn't go preaching to people telling them this was the truth, when I wasn't 100% sure myself. I didn't feel I could go to meetings because they aren't a place where you can raise questions and have them answered - I would just end up stumbling others. When they asked me what specific things I had doubts about, I was careful not to be too specific. I said, I knew the society had made errors in doctrine. They spewed the tired old "light gets brighter" - but I said, yes, but then how is it different to other religions? What IS it that makes them the one true religion exactly? They were totally speechless. Honestly. We sat there for about 5 minutes in total silence while they tried to think of something to say. In the end, one brother basically said I needed blind faith. (not in those words of course). He told me about how he had doubts when he was a teenager, but instead of facing them, he went pioneering, and that eventually made him feel better, and now 30 odd years later, he's still feeling fine. I didn't reply, but all I could think was "so you had doubts, and instead of proving them wrong with study and reason, you just ignored them and drowned them in spiritual activity. nice!"

Well, that meeting left my wife dumbfounded. Weren't the elders supposed to be these beacons of light, loving shepherds who would save me? I hadn't done anything wrong. I wasn't a naughty boy who needed discipline. I wasn't angry or disrespectful. At that time, I was truly willing to go back if someone could show me that it actually was the truth. Somewhere inside I wished for that - Its not like I had already been DF'd for doing something I secretly enjoyed, and wanted to keep doing it, so was looking for reasons to leave - not at all. I was a ministerial servant at that point where I knew they were discussing appointing me as an elder. I was an excellent public speaker. I was one of the few MS's allowed to give public talks in neighborings congregations. I enjoyed it. So, in summary, I was actually asking the elders to help me back with real answers, reasons. But they had nothing. I was being a bit cautious at the same time though - I wasn't going to reveal any specific doubts that I could be accused with later. So I put the onous on them to prove to me, as if I was a wordly, why this is the one true religion? And they couldn't. Its easy when you have to do it to a worldy - because they know nothing, and so its easy to impress them with a few scriptures that seem to talk of a paradise earth etc. But to convince someone who knows it all and STILL doubts ... wow, no wonder they were silent. How do you distinguish the governing body from any other religious leaders? They made mistakes, they changed their doctrines, they've been caught in scandals, they've protected child molestors - how can we read a watchtower today and call it "truth", when in the future, those doctrines could change under the "new light" policy? These are things worldlies don't know about.

Anyway, back to my wife. I tried not to use any "tactics". As a JW, you use them all the time, like second nature. We would out-and-out lie to people at the doors saying "we're not out here to convert anyone." Orwellian Doublespeak is a second language to JWs. So I tried hard not to do that sort of thing. The one thing I DID do, which I'm not 100% proud of, but you can judge for yourself how ethical it was: I said to her once - "The society used to teach that organ transplants were wrong and a disfellowshipping offense. Many people died when they didn't need to. Today, they teach against blood tranfusions. How will you feel, if one of our children one day needs a transfusion, you refuse it and he dies? And then a few years later, the society changes the teaching on blood like they changed the teaching on transplants?"

I've asked my lovely wife to write her side down, and I will post it when she has. She's never been on this forum.

All the best mate,

20

My wife's out and we're very happy

by 10p in

i feel a bit guilty.

people on this forum were very friendly and helpful to me when i was in the in-between phase between brainwashing and freedom.. i also got a lot of help and advice and sympathy when i was trying to get my wife out.. but when she did leave, i forgot all about you guys, and we got on with our lives, and have never been happier.

honestly, life is soooo damn good now, i worry i might have reached the peak and things will only get worse from here.. we are amazed at how much our children enjoy birthdays and christmas - how healthy, normal and fun these things are.

10p

I feel a bit guilty. People on this forum were very friendly and helpful to me when I was in the in-between phase between brainwashing and freedom.

I also got a lot of help and advice and sympathy when I was trying to get my wife out.

But when she did leave, I forgot all about you guys, and we got on with our lives, and have NEVER been HAPPIER. Honestly, life is soooo damn good now, I worry I might have reached the peak and things will only get worse from here.

We are amazed at how much our children enjoy birthdays and christmas - how healthy, normal and FUN these things are. I finally watched the Harry Potter movies and the Lord of the Rings trilogy. Whether I enjoyed them or not is irrelevant.

We have fantastic sex lives now. I'm studying for a bachelors degree online. Our children play with "wordly" kids. I don't think I will ever be materialistic, but I feel totally comfortable pursuing more wealth so that we can live a more comfortable life and can provide a higher education for our kids.

I have my own opinions on a vast array of subjects, from global warming to "terrorism" to local politics and conspiracies. I can think for myself and it feels wonderful. By becoming more dependant on my own mind, I've been able to essentially cure my asthma, and greatly improve my wife's chronic health problems. Once we had rejected dependance on a "faithful slave" we also became far less dependant on medical professionals (sometimes I give them a harder time than they deserve, but then again, sometimes they treat us 'plebs' the way the governing body treats the 'other sheep')

I believe in Darwin's theory of the origin of the species ... gradual adaptation as the reason for the variety of species we have today - but I'm agnostic about abiogenesis etc. I just cant decide either way if there is an intelligent designer(s) or not - which at least means that if there is one, he/she/them doesn't want to be found. I certainly don't believe in the anthropomorphic, bearded, male gods that many believe in. I try to stay respectful to those who do believe in that sort of thing, but honestly, its hard not to become argumentative.

All-in-all, leaving "the truth" was the best (and most difficult) thing I ever did. It nearly broke our marriage, but in the end, it brought us far closer than I ever realised a couple could get. We have two amazing children who are the "light at the end of the tunnel" for me - my reason for living. I don't need a paradise hope - I'm very happy with the life I have, thanks to the god(s) - I won't ask for more, because I feel blessed to have had what I've had so far. Its not all roses, we've had death's, divorces and poor health, sexual abuse and violence affect us to varying degrees. But still, I wouldn't ask to have never been born, even if this is as good as it gets. I could never have said that, nor felt such appreciation for the life and body I have now back when I was a JW. I was always scared of this world, of this life, of my 'imperfect flesh'. Now I truly feel that "in a fear inspiring way, we are wonderfully made" (evolution or not, we are still amazing machines)

I am fitter, healthier (I hope, those damn sneaky diseases like cancer and heart disease can be hiding in any one of us) and respect my body MORE now than when I was a JW. Sure, they don't smoke. But they are more sedentary than the average "worldly" because they frown on sports and other "bodily training". I would love to see a statistic for the level of obesity amongst JWs compared to the wider population.

I could go on, but what I really came here to do was say:

Thanks to everyone here who helped me at a difficult time. All the best ... I hope your lives have improved after leaving as much as mine has!

10p

65

Things in the past that show you that your doubts started earlier than you thought

by sabastious in

i was just talking to my wife this morning about underlining or highlighting the wt paragraphs.. when i was 13 years old i would fight with my dad because i refused to highlight the answers.. the reason was because i wanted my comment to be genuine.

i felt that highlighting the "answer" made me lean on just using that as a crutch and not truly putting it in my own words.. i still hold that argument now, and i am 26. the only reason you would ever have to highlight something in a study book would be if you needed to remember it, maybe it is fairly complicated or subtle information that could be easily forgotten.. so many times in the wt the "question" has the same phrase that's in the paragraph!

it's literally like playing connect the dots.. so what i would do is not highlight during the family study.

10p

I never felt right that we didn't help people. All those other christian religions seemed to be running soup kitchens, building houses for the poor (and not just for their own members after a disaster) and so on. The excuse that we were "doing a more important work" never felt right to me either, because Jesus fed the hungry, and his parable of the good samaritan didn't mention anything about preaching to the poor beaten-up man - just plain old fashioned helping him in the present in a completely physical way.

I too have no idea how I just supressed this for decades.

Plus, I lost repesct for the elders when I was about 12 because my best friend's father was appointed, and I knew what a drunkard he was!

17

Has there been a JW Facebook directive?

by Gregor in

jw
friends

or is it just the usual internet cautions?.

i have an jw aunt who abruptly de activated her fb account yesterday..

10p

LOL - Here's an excerpt from the wall of an old JW friend of mine :

Ethan xxxxxx is shutting down his facebook account in a weeks time.

November 30, 2008 at 1:30pm · Comment ·

Ethan xxxxxxx is still going to shut down his facebook page. new date for shutdown Dec 17.

December 11, 2008 at 3:25am · Comment

Ethan xxxxxx Has finally shut down his account. My personal email is [email protected] if you need to get in touch. All the best to you all.

December 28, 2008 at 3:32am · Comment ·

Ethan xxxxx reckons that love handles are the new six pack! Yeah baby Yeah!

June 22 at 2:59pm · Comment ·

Michelle ------------s Hi Ethan - you're back ! How are things your end?

June 23 at 9:05am

Kayla ------- Hmm. I strongly remember a certain someone being strongly against FB. What happened to that??

June 25 at 8:35am · Comment ·

Ethan xxxxxxx How else am I going to keep tabs on you? Plus it is just too hard to keep in contact with all my family so here I am.

June 25 at 9:14am

32

Do you think you have an accent?

by highdose in

jw
friends

apparently people ( like me) from the home counties of england don't have an accent, its just english...?.

for the record i would say my accent is rather like kira knightly.

10p

In Durban, I had an "english" accent. (ie, not afrikaans or zulu). In New Zealand, I had a South African accent. In Australia, I have a Kiwi accent ('Fush and Chups mate'), and to my old friends from New Zealand AND South Africa, I have a bloody Ozzie accent! At least I don't have a Yankee accent!!!