Posts by Fester

43

I don't need Jesus to be a loving person

by Fester in

jw
friends

wanted to start a new topic, one based on the idea of those of us who are naturally loving, naturally kind, and naturally good people, without the bible or without anyone else telling us otherwise.. it wasn't long after i found out that the majority of the religious history i studied was a dead end road that i also discovered that i can be a friendly happy person, living a perfect life (in my mind which is good enough for me), not a thief, not a killer, paying my taxes and steering clear of everyone out here with an agenda.... i started this thread for those of us who are truly free and truly open minded, who have no religious crutch whatsoever.. if you're among that group or lack thereof i should say, welcome to the thread!.

..... now some unloving words from jesus and the bible to back this belief....... .

luk 14:26 "if anyone comes to me and does not hate his own father and mother and wife and children and brothers and sisters, yes, and even his own life, he cannot be my disciple.

Fester

Hi Shelby,

You neglected to comment on Isaiah 7:14 and it's placement in Matthew. Let's look at Isaiah 7 and 8 and you tell me why I would be wrong to assume that it's fulfillment is entirely within the context of Isaiah's text....

Isa 7:14 Therefore the Lord himself will give you a sign. Behold, the virgin shall conceive and bear a son, and shall call his name Immanuel.

Isa 7:15 He shall eat curds and honey when he knows how to refuse the evil and choose the good.

Isa 7:16 For before the boy knows how to refuse the evil and choose the good, the land whose two kings you dread will be deserted.

Isa 7:17 The LORD will bring upon you and upon your people and upon your father's house such days as have not come since the day that Ephraim departed from Judah--the king of Assyria."

First, Ahaz is being told that YHWH will give HIM a sign... The sign is for AHAZ... agree? Which two kings did Ahaz dread in Jesus' day 700 years later? Here's the fulfillment EXACTLY as told..... Isa 8:3 And I went to the prophetess, and she conceived and bore a son. Then the LORD said to me, "Call his name Maher-shalal-hash-baz; Isa 8:4 for before the boy knows how to cry 'My father' or 'My mother,' the wealth of Damascus and the spoil of Samaria will be carried away before the king of Assyria." The true Christian response from most theologians is that it's a "dual prophecy". It's the only explanation they can offer to try and explain away the simple fact that Isaiah had a son in the next chapter fitting the Assyrian king's demise as told in chapter 7!! Now, concerning the authorship of the gospels.... Who is Luke? As far as we know, only the letters attributed to Paul mention him. Luke isn't one of the 12 disciples, so exactly who is he? Now... just to show you that Paul and the gospels are definitely separate works and Jesus in the NT definitely said that he REJECTS PAUL.... 2Ti 1:15 You are aware that all who are in Asia turned away from me, among whom are Phygelus and Hermogenes. Here in his letter to Timothy, Paul mentions that "ALL who are in Asia (Ephesus is in Asia) turned away from me" Rev 2:1 "To the angel of the church in Ephesus write: 'The words of him who holds the seven stars in his right hand, who walks among the seven golden lampstands. Rev 2:2 "'I know your works, your toil and your patient endurance, and how you cannot bear with those who are evil, but have tested those who call themselves apostles and are not, and found them to be false. Jesus congratulates the Ephesian Asian church for rejecting Paul.... How do we know this? Because there are only 12 apostles of the lamb according to John, John by the way NEVER mentions Paul in any of his texts.... Rev 21:14 And the wall of the city had twelve foundations, and on them twelve names of the twelve apostles of the Lamb. There are only 12 apostles of the lamb... Paul is not one of them.

43

I don't need Jesus to be a loving person

by Fester in

jw
friends

wanted to start a new topic, one based on the idea of those of us who are naturally loving, naturally kind, and naturally good people, without the bible or without anyone else telling us otherwise.. it wasn't long after i found out that the majority of the religious history i studied was a dead end road that i also discovered that i can be a friendly happy person, living a perfect life (in my mind which is good enough for me), not a thief, not a killer, paying my taxes and steering clear of everyone out here with an agenda.... i started this thread for those of us who are truly free and truly open minded, who have no religious crutch whatsoever.. if you're among that group or lack thereof i should say, welcome to the thread!.

..... now some unloving words from jesus and the bible to back this belief....... .

luk 14:26 "if anyone comes to me and does not hate his own father and mother and wife and children and brothers and sisters, yes, and even his own life, he cannot be my disciple.

Fester

Gladiator, you're absolutely right.

Thank you.

Shalom Aleichem,

BARNEY MULDOON

43

I don't need Jesus to be a loving person

by Fester in

jw
friends

wanted to start a new topic, one based on the idea of those of us who are naturally loving, naturally kind, and naturally good people, without the bible or without anyone else telling us otherwise.. it wasn't long after i found out that the majority of the religious history i studied was a dead end road that i also discovered that i can be a friendly happy person, living a perfect life (in my mind which is good enough for me), not a thief, not a killer, paying my taxes and steering clear of everyone out here with an agenda.... i started this thread for those of us who are truly free and truly open minded, who have no religious crutch whatsoever.. if you're among that group or lack thereof i should say, welcome to the thread!.

..... now some unloving words from jesus and the bible to back this belief....... .

luk 14:26 "if anyone comes to me and does not hate his own father and mother and wife and children and brothers and sisters, yes, and even his own life, he cannot be my disciple.

Fester

I'm merely trying to still seek some answers from those who are religious. Not being religious, I'm not shoving anything down anyone's throat. People are free to believe in whatever they like. However, if they are going to promote their beliefs, and live a life allegedly mimicking that belief, they need to prove that they are doing so.

I doubt highly that Shelby has given away all her possessions, can cast out demons, raise the dead, etc, no?

Shelby, can you do what Jesus commands? If not, why not?

43

I don't need Jesus to be a loving person

by Fester in

jw
friends

wanted to start a new topic, one based on the idea of those of us who are naturally loving, naturally kind, and naturally good people, without the bible or without anyone else telling us otherwise.. it wasn't long after i found out that the majority of the religious history i studied was a dead end road that i also discovered that i can be a friendly happy person, living a perfect life (in my mind which is good enough for me), not a thief, not a killer, paying my taxes and steering clear of everyone out here with an agenda.... i started this thread for those of us who are truly free and truly open minded, who have no religious crutch whatsoever.. if you're among that group or lack thereof i should say, welcome to the thread!.

..... now some unloving words from jesus and the bible to back this belief....... .

luk 14:26 "if anyone comes to me and does not hate his own father and mother and wife and children and brothers and sisters, yes, and even his own life, he cannot be my disciple.

Fester

How about this question.... for Shelby and other believes in the Jesus story and the bible in general...

Do you believe that without Jesus or belief in Jesus as a savior, one cannot be "saved"?

In other words, if I know some Jewish people that have lived their entire lives lawfully wed, not committing adultery, not hurting anyone ever, never stealing and always eating clean, keeping the Sabbath day (Saturday), etc, and living basically a Torah adherent life, but they do not accept Jesus, they can't stand the idea of him... will they be condemned to the lake of fire?

On the flip side, what about a cocaine addict that lived 30 years of his life robbing people, stealing, killing, a life of gluttony, drunkeness, etc... then one day he accepts Jesus as savior.... will he be saved?

According to the New Testament, the coke addict will live forever in paradise, while the Jewish couple will die because they do not accept the son....

13

Question for Tec

by Fester in

jw
friends

hi tec,.

i'd like to publicly ask you about a few things.

i notice in a lot of your posts you talk about your "faith".. can you define exactly what "faith" is though?

Fester

Hi Tammy,

I have but one remaining question. You said we differ on whether Jesus is just a character in a book or not. You would say he's not just a book character, but a real, living breathing person still? Can you prove this for me, and make it easier for me to accept him? Can you get him on the horn and have him visit with us for a little while? True loving friends and brothers and sisters are REAL to me. I meet them. Love them. I can hold an actual conversation with them.

You say the copycat theories are not credible? Have you really spent 5-6 years digging through all the Hellenistic archives in Europe and the Mediterranean to actually come to that conclusion? You're talking about disqualifying thousands of other texts that predate the bible by a number of centuries!

Have you ever read Sergei Tokarev's History of Religion? Can you explain to me why the words "You must eat my flesh and drink my blood" are found on cave walls that date back to 400BC? Can you explain why a Jewish born Messiah would utter such cannibalistic words? Even if the words are "spiritual" they must have tangible evidence to back them. The Torah forbade blood consumption and human flesh consumption.

Also, how does Jesus qualify as a picture of the OT prophecies? Did he have hooves on his feet? Was his throat properly slit? Offered up at the proper time (day of atonement not the Paschal meal)? By the right people?

It's all very simple really if you study ancient Persian influence on the bible, it's plainly there.

43

I don't need Jesus to be a loving person

by Fester in

jw
friends

wanted to start a new topic, one based on the idea of those of us who are naturally loving, naturally kind, and naturally good people, without the bible or without anyone else telling us otherwise.. it wasn't long after i found out that the majority of the religious history i studied was a dead end road that i also discovered that i can be a friendly happy person, living a perfect life (in my mind which is good enough for me), not a thief, not a killer, paying my taxes and steering clear of everyone out here with an agenda.... i started this thread for those of us who are truly free and truly open minded, who have no religious crutch whatsoever.. if you're among that group or lack thereof i should say, welcome to the thread!.

..... now some unloving words from jesus and the bible to back this belief....... .

luk 14:26 "if anyone comes to me and does not hate his own father and mother and wife and children and brothers and sisters, yes, and even his own life, he cannot be my disciple.

Fester

Shelby I appreciate all that you stated here, but the cold hard facts are quite simple, the biblical format is one mainly taken from the Mithras concerning the character in the story called "Jesus". We have absolutely no historical documents proving the existence of Jesus. We have no proof of authorship of any of the gospels. We have no credible contemporary historian to ever once mention Jesus in any historical document in the first century.

Now, concerning the story of the bible itself, aside from no historical evidence of the existence of Jesus, let's assume that your Lord is real and does exist. You commented on how he didn't come to bring peace and unite fathers with sons, mothers with daughters, correct? You stated that his coming was going to definitely bring division among family, correct? If his coming wasn't to bring peace among all family members, than how does he actually fit the role of Messiah? Moreover, how does any of this "I'm not here to bring peace but division among families" fit with Paul's words in Ephesians Chapter 2 where he said "He came preaching peace and breaking down the dividing wall of hostility"? Malachi 4:6 tells us that the Moshiach(s) are always supposed to unite people, family, Israel, etc. The goal of the Moshiach is to reunite the two houses of Israel/Judah, not divide!

Another question for you though: How does Isaiah 7:14 end up in Matthew? Doesn't Isaiah 7:14 strictly deal with Isaiah's son in Isaiah 8:3? What kind of sign was given to Ahaz that he could interpret 700 years later?

Careful with me.... I've been known to slowly persuade MANY away from Jesus and eliminate their crutches....

13

Question for Tec

by Fester in

jw
friends

hi tec,.

i'd like to publicly ask you about a few things.

i notice in a lot of your posts you talk about your "faith".. can you define exactly what "faith" is though?

Fester

Tammy, how do you feel about these verses?

Mat 10:34 "Do not think that I have come to bring peace to the earth. I have not come to bring peace, but a sword.

Mat 10:35 For I have come to set a man against his father, and a daughter against her mother, and a daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law.

Mat 10:36 And a person's enemies will be those of his own household.

Mat 10:37 Whoever loves father or mother more than me is not worthy of me, and whoever loves son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me.

I personally love my tangible existing family more than I could ever love a character in a book. Is that wrong? Moreover, in Luke, Jesus says that his disciples must "hate" (Greek word Miseo) their parents.

Without trying to wrest these texts into something other than what they plainly say, can you explain this? Remember: He's not here to bring peace. What good then, is he?

20

Help with refining these questions for JW's

by S EIGHT in

i am slowly building a list of questions designed to help jw's "think" about the "truth".

please let me know if you think they can be refined or added to.. cheers,.

1. specifically, what was jesus looking for in 1918 when he looked upon the earth to identify his faithful and discrete slave?.

Fester

Ok...that doesn't answer my question of "return". He returned from where to where? Heaven to heaven?

43

I don't need Jesus to be a loving person

by Fester in

jw
friends

wanted to start a new topic, one based on the idea of those of us who are naturally loving, naturally kind, and naturally good people, without the bible or without anyone else telling us otherwise.. it wasn't long after i found out that the majority of the religious history i studied was a dead end road that i also discovered that i can be a friendly happy person, living a perfect life (in my mind which is good enough for me), not a thief, not a killer, paying my taxes and steering clear of everyone out here with an agenda.... i started this thread for those of us who are truly free and truly open minded, who have no religious crutch whatsoever.. if you're among that group or lack thereof i should say, welcome to the thread!.

..... now some unloving words from jesus and the bible to back this belief....... .

luk 14:26 "if anyone comes to me and does not hate his own father and mother and wife and children and brothers and sisters, yes, and even his own life, he cannot be my disciple.

Fester

Let me clarify... I pay state and local taxes, for roads, schools etc. Not the federal income tax. I find ways to avoid paying that at all costs, plus it's unconstitutional.

43

I don't need Jesus to be a loving person

by Fester in

jw
friends

wanted to start a new topic, one based on the idea of those of us who are naturally loving, naturally kind, and naturally good people, without the bible or without anyone else telling us otherwise.. it wasn't long after i found out that the majority of the religious history i studied was a dead end road that i also discovered that i can be a friendly happy person, living a perfect life (in my mind which is good enough for me), not a thief, not a killer, paying my taxes and steering clear of everyone out here with an agenda.... i started this thread for those of us who are truly free and truly open minded, who have no religious crutch whatsoever.. if you're among that group or lack thereof i should say, welcome to the thread!.

..... now some unloving words from jesus and the bible to back this belief....... .

luk 14:26 "if anyone comes to me and does not hate his own father and mother and wife and children and brothers and sisters, yes, and even his own life, he cannot be my disciple.

Fester

Hi everyone,

Wanted to start a new topic, one based on the idea of those of us who are naturally loving, naturally kind, and naturally good people, without the bible or without anyone else telling us otherwise.

It wasn't long after I found out that the majority of the religious history I studied was a dead end road that I also discovered that I can be a friendly happy person, living a PERFECT life (in my mind which is good enough for me), not a thief, not a killer, paying my taxes and steering clear of everyone out here with an agenda...

I started this thread for those of us who are truly free and truly open minded, who have no religious crutch whatsoever.

If you're among that group or lack thereof I should say, welcome to the thread!

....

Now some unloving words from Jesus and the bible to back this belief......

Luk 14:26 "If anyone comes to me and does not hate his own father and mother and wife and children and brothers and sisters, yes, and even his own life, he cannot be my disciple.

Mat 8:21 Another of the disciples said to him, "Lord, let me first go and bury my father." Mat 8:22 And Jesus said to him, "Follow me, and leave the dead to bury their own dead."

Isa 66:16 For by fire will the LORD enter into judgment, and by his sword, with all flesh; and those slain by the LORD shall be many. Isa 66:17 "Those who sanctify and purify themselves to go into the gardens, following one in the midst, eating pig's flesh and the abomination and mice, shall come to an end together, declares the LORD. Mat 10:34 "Do not think that I have come to bring peace to the earth. I have not come to bring peace, but a sword. Mat 10:35 For I have come to set a man against his father, and a daughter against her mother, and a daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law. Mat 10:36 And a person's enemies will be those of his own household. Mat 10:37 Whoever loves father or mother more than me is not worthy of me, and whoever loves son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me. Sorry, but I love my mother and father more than anyone else, they have done more for me than anyone else. I could never listen to these instructions, they completely defy the commandment to honor one's mother and father. They also defy Proverbs 6:16-19, as well as Malachi chapter 4, just before the end of the OT. If anything the Jewish people were correct to reject Jesus of Nazareth according to the tale. He was teaching people not to stone to death according to God's law, he was teaching people not to honor the Sabbath, and he himself violated his own Father's Sabbath on several occasions, (see John chapter 5). He was a magician and sorcerer who did all kinds of things against the law (Deuteronomy 18), and he did absolutely nothing MESSIANIC to fulfill any prophecy of any Israelite King, but rather was born in a way that suggests something unlawful happened. Joseph didn't get to impregnate his virgin wife, instead Zeus.... excuse me.... the LORD did.....