i'm new to this site... just looking for confirmations of thoughts i've been having during my investigation of this organization.
i'm attending meetings while studying and thought this forum might provide some insight.
it surely does.
Hey, Possibilites...... I noticed you had the disclosure that the letter was not "the original English" but was rather "a translation". I also noticed you joined April 29, 2008.
Did the original language of this document happen to be SPANISH by any stretch of my imagination? If so, I think it means you're naughty!!!
(This makes no sense if I'm wrong, please ignore, if I'm right, please just give me a smiley face, and nothing more will be said of it)
this must be a sign of what will lie ahead for the j-dubs (at least in the united states).
this last weekend at the special day circuit assembly i went to, not a single person got baptized (zero, zip, nada) and the funny part was that they still had to give the baptism talk because it was already in the program schedule.
hopefully people are starting to catch on and we'll have a few more "zero baptism" assemblies.
LOL so hard I think I peed a little. That's the most awesomest, funniest, thing I have EVER heard. There's no way they would have let that happen if there was ANY way to get some bodies in the damn water. Think of the fortitude if all those 12-14 year olds that resistted the pep talks that must have occurred. I admire the Organizations integrity in not hiring some scabs to make a show of it!
i'm new to this site... just looking for confirmations of thoughts i've been having during my investigation of this organization.
i'm attending meetings while studying and thought this forum might provide some insight.
it surely does.
TO "Possibilities" - If "confirmation of thoughts" means you can already smell the madness and want someone to confirm it for you. I and most others here will get greater pleasure confirming that for you and keeping you out (thereby saving you) than whomever is trying to get you in would get from your dunking. We are at your disposal.
I'm giddy with the prospect of saving my first soul (I'm pretty new here too, was raised a JW been out 10 years)
i'm new to this site... just looking for confirmations of thoughts i've been having during my investigation of this organization.
i'm attending meetings while studying and thought this forum might provide some insight.
it surely does.
LOL, I distinctly remember that previous loving guidance from the Slave was that we could not possibly get enough "spiritual food" and that meetings were "refreshment". Now, getting rid of meetings is a reduction of a burden.
Possibilities, the Devil isn't so much in the teachings its in the social details. Lots of religions teach things that just ain't true, that isn't the issue the JW detractors here have with the Cult. The Devil is in the Social Controls, Brainwashing, Emotional Blackmail, suppression of ANYTHING that might make you happy "in this system of things", conditional love of "friends" who will choose the Organization over any respect for you. You'll just need to take it under advisement that there are tens/hundreds of thousands of Ex-JW's who feel SEVERLY victimized by the cult.
That said, if you never surrender your freedom of thought, and don't get too deep into the social controls, I really don't think studying with JWs and going to meetings as a newbie is "dangerous".If you're comparing what you read here to the nice, apparently sincere people you're meeting, just understand that its not like that, these are severe issues that arise when you're deep in the swing of things. Its almost impossible to explain to an non-JW. Just watch yourself. I think JW's are some nice people too. Nice people with crazy views that will destroy you if you aren't careful.
I really doubt many people here are upset that JW's exist and we don't think they have "the truth", its much more than a theocratic debate. People here will respond cynically to just about anything the Filthful and Disgraced Slavekeeper does or says. It feels good after what we've been through. If you keep in mind that the "Faithful and Discreet Slave" is 9 very human old guys in New York, you'll be miles ahead of the really dangerous JW's.
KEEP FRIENDS OUTSIDE OF THE ORGANIZATION - My parting advice (err for now, I guess we may get to chat a lot, so I don't want to sound so final)
Bring_the_Light
it took a long time, but i can finally say i'm out and i took my family with me.. this is my first post but i have been reading here for a while.
i was brought up a witness, in a family that was very 'strong' (or so everyone thought).
i didnt have a relationship with my perents at all other than the 'family study'.
Hmm, I wish I would have taken this "slow and easy" path with a friend of mine (that I've liked "that way" since we were kids). I've been away so long the JW stuff coming between us REALLY set me off. I did a lot of email blurting, that probably would have even made you guys say something to the effect of "its not nice to attack people for their beliefs". oops.
But, I sent her a link to JWD as a last ditch effort, so maybe she's reading this now, and can "imagine" I took the slow and easy approach!
I didn't mean to offend you, Bry. Lurk awhile. Call me whenever you want. Believe or no believe, I'm tired of losing friends to the WBTS. Somehow I was absolutely sure that it was important to go seek out my past. There is no religious litmus test for my friendship. I've been punished for not being a liar while others are rewarded for being good liars, my entire life, and I will never change teams. Losing a good fight is better than winning a bad one. This is integrity, something we worldlings are supposed to be lacking, keep in mind.
FYI I also didn't find JWD until you got me all flustered. Not an apostate by trade. Almost forgot I was ever a JW until i got out of the Army and starting thinking "not dead, now what do I do?". Didn't come looking for you to "get you out". I never lied to you once (your record isn't as spotless and you know it). Finding someone I thought I understood pretty well who can't act normal because of this religion, is really making me think about whether its "OK that others" are still in. Its hard to watch, and it hurts people (most notably me).
I'll take continued shunning as a positive sign that you're thinking things over. My "equal time" study WTBS and think critically about WTBS offer still stands. I promise (I have integrity keep in mind) that i will for sure, get baptized this summer upon the delivery of the story and name of the reciepient from god the information that the WTBS was chosen by god in 1919. Just the name of the person who said god told them that for sure the WBTS is God's pick and any associated story is all it takes. (or any other story about "how the Society learned" this published fact). Tell me "WHO SAYS" and I'll believe everything they say. (and yes this is a trick, please also note as a matter of honest disclosure that I'm pretty directly advocating repetition of the original sin, and yes this type of thing is exactly why you aren't supposed to be reading stuff like this right now). I may be a tool of Satan, but I'm an honest tool of Satan.
What do you mean? She didn't read any apostatish literature on the internet, she'd never do that!! My lips are sealed. Try to enjoy your fall from grace, its not all bad, it can be fun. The sarcastic quips get way better, and the people become much less anal retentive and demanding.
Alternatively, I think everyone here would be game if you wanted to do some on-line pioneering. (I wouldn't plan on reporting your hours on JWD, just trust me on that one.) If I am broken, I will not resist being fixed. The difficulty is there's nothing wrong with me.
Bring_the_Light
this is my wife i am talking about.
i'll get that out of the way first.. she was essentially born into the truth and she is hardcore.
she is a zealot.
Use your uber-powers as the head of the household. Pull together the WTBS pubs and the Bible and study hard on how you are her grand puba. Then, when she no longer feels the need to treat you like a child, and you have her attention/respect do the other stuff these guys suggested.
I feel for you man, you sound like a truly good man. You're in pretty much exactly the same boat as my dad was. When I was 17 and living away at college, my dad slowly suggested the marriage might not last..... I chimed in before he could even get uncomfortable and gave him my blessing. I didn't want to live there either....
PROTECT THE KIDS. DO EVERYTHING YOU CAN TO LET THEM LIVE A NORMAL LIFE. The rest is between you, your wife and god.
i was wondering what your impressions are of the recent convo i had with a jw elder who thought he would call up his old "apostate" buddy and try to sell him some software.
i agreed to the meeting thinking this would be great.
my own mother won't talk to me but this guy feels this "business" would allow him to fraternise.. he quickly gets on the jw topic by mentioning a recent funeral of a mutual acquaintance in the "tooth" and why i wasn't there.
My head is spinning. So glad I made my dash as a relative youngster and didn't have to pretend any of this is adult behavior.
This whole idea of strangers being this involved is "Judicating" someone's holiness is like a new level of awe at the insanity of this religion. I pretty much just experienced the "torment the kids" part of it. I assumed all the crazy shit was only done to kids.
i will start with a definition: this comes from wikipedia.
- conscience is a hypothesised ability or faculty that distinguishes whether our actions are right or wrong.
it leads to feelings of remorse when we do things that go against our moral values, and to feelings of rectitude or integrity when our actions conform to our moral values.
The Allegory of the Cave - from Platos Republic and c/o Wikipedia
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Allegory_of_the_Cave
Plot
This drawing is highly simplified and should only be used as an aid for grasping the picture the allegory creates; it does not represent the entire allegory.
Imagine prisoners who have been chained since their childhood deep inside a cave: not only are their arms and legs unmovable because of chains; their heads are chained in one direction as well so that their gaze is fixed on a wall.
Behind the prisoners is an enormous fire, and between the fire and the prisoners is a raised walkway, along which puppets of various animals, plants, and other things are moved along. The puppets cast shadows on the wall, and the prisoners watch these shadows. When one of the puppet-carriers speaks, an echo against the wall causes the prisoners to believe that the words come from the shadows.
The prisoners engage in what appears to us to be a game: naming the shapes as they come by. This, however, is the only reality that they know, even though they are seeing merely shadows of objects. They are thus conditioned to judge the quality of one another by their skill in quickly naming the shapes and dislike those who play poorly.
Suppose a prisoner is released and compelled to stand up and turn around. At that moment his eyes will be blinded by the sunlight coming into the cave from its entrance, and the shapes passing by will appear less real than their shadows.
The last object he would be able to see is the sun, which, in time, he would learn to see as the object that provides the seasons and the courses of the year, presides over all things in the visible region, and is in some way the cause of all these things that he has seen.
(This part of the allegory, incidentally, closely relates to Plato's metaphor of the sun which occurs near the end of The Republic, Book VI.) [1]
Once enlightened, so to speak, the freed prisoner would not want to return to the cave to free "his fellow bondsmen," but would be compelled to do so. Another problem lies in the other prisoners not wanting to be freed: descending back into the cave would require that the freed prisoner's eyes adjust again, and for a time, he would be one of the ones identifying shapes on the wall. His eyes would be swamped by the darkness, and would take time to become acclimated. Therefore, he would not be able to identify the shapes on the wall as well as the other prisoners, making it seem as if his being taken to the surface completely ruined his eyesight. (The Republic bk. VII, 516b-c; trans. Paul Shorey). [2]
alice falling down the rabbit hole - alice in wonderland.
alice going through the looking glass - alice in wonderland.
dorothy seeing the wizard behind the curtain, wizard saying "pay no attention to the man behind the curtain" - the wizard of oz.
The Allegory of the Cave - from Platos Republic and c/o Wikipedia
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Allegory_of_the_Cave
Plot
This drawing is highly simplified and should only be used as an aid for grasping the picture the allegory creates; it does not represent the entire allegory.
Imagine prisoners who have been chained since their childhood deep inside a cave: not only are their arms and legs unmovable because of chains; their heads are chained in one direction as well so that their gaze is fixed on a wall.
Behind the prisoners is an enormous fire, and between the fire and the prisoners is a raised walkway, along which puppets of various animals, plants, and other things are moved along. The puppets cast shadows on the wall, and the prisoners watch these shadows. When one of the puppet-carriers speaks, an echo against the wall causes the prisoners to believe that the words come from the shadows.
The prisoners engage in what appears to us to be a game: naming the shapes as they come by. This, however, is the only reality that they know, even though they are seeing merely shadows of objects. They are thus conditioned to judge the quality of one another by their skill in quickly naming the shapes and dislike those who play poorly.
Suppose a prisoner is released and compelled to stand up and turn around. At that moment his eyes will be blinded by the sunlight coming into the cave from its entrance, and the shapes passing by will appear less real than their shadows.
The last object he would be able to see is the sun, which, in time, he would learn to see as the object that provides the seasons and the courses of the year, presides over all things in the visible region, and is in some way the cause of all these things that he has seen.
(This part of the allegory, incidentally, closely relates to Plato's metaphor of the sun which occurs near the end of The Republic, Book VI.) [1]
Once enlightened, so to speak, the freed prisoner would not want to return to the cave to free "his fellow bondsmen," but would be compelled to do so. Another problem lies in the other prisoners not wanting to be freed: descending back into the cave would require that the freed prisoner's eyes adjust again, and for a time, he would be one of the ones identifying shapes on the wall. His eyes would be swamped by the darkness, and would take time to become acclimated. Therefore, he would not be able to identify the shapes on the wall as well as the other prisoners, making it seem as if his being taken to the surface completely ruined his eyesight. (The Republic bk. VII, 516b-c; trans. Paul Shorey). [2]
alice falling down the rabbit hole - alice in wonderland.
alice going through the looking glass - alice in wonderland.
dorothy seeing the wizard behind the curtain, wizard saying "pay no attention to the man behind the curtain" - the wizard of oz.
The Allegory of the Cave {chained to wall in cave looking at shadows by candlelight, an escapee gets away, tries to explain to the captives that they are looking at shadows on a wall and cannot explain it to them, turns and leaves the cave into "the (day)light" - Platos "Republic"
Eve eats the apple from the tree of knowledge of good and bad - Book of Genesis, Bible
