Posts by Gladring

150

Article: The Atheist's Dilemma

by BurnTheShips in

campos: the atheist's dilemmaby paul camposwhy is stanley fish so much smarter than richard dawkins?

that question occurred to me last week, while attending a lecture at which fish, the well-known literary and legal theorist, did the thing he always does, which is to make the following point over and over again:.

"no believer will find his faith shaken by evidence that is evidence only in the light of assumptions he does not share and considers flatly wrong.".

Gladring

0. I am God

17

Has anyone had sex during field service?

by rebel8 in

jw
friends

.

Gladring

Any voluntary donations would be gratefully accepted LOL

150

Article: The Atheist's Dilemma

by BurnTheShips in

campos: the atheist's dilemmaby paul camposwhy is stanley fish so much smarter than richard dawkins?

that question occurred to me last week, while attending a lecture at which fish, the well-known literary and legal theorist, did the thing he always does, which is to make the following point over and over again:.

"no believer will find his faith shaken by evidence that is evidence only in the light of assumptions he does not share and considers flatly wrong.".

Gladring

I don't think Dawkins would agree, since him saying that there is no proof for God would make him an agnostic. Dawkins' view is surely not just that there is no proof for God, but that he definitely does not exist. Which, as the article points out, is a statement of belief since it is not possible to scientifically prove that God does not exist.

In the God Delusion, Dawkins gives the scale

Strong theist. 100 per cent probability of God
Very high probability but short of 100 per cent. De facto theist.
Higher than 50 per cent but not very high. Technically agnostic but leaning towards theism.
Exactly 50 per cent. Completely impartial agnostic.
Lower than 50 per cent but not very low. Technically agnostic but leaning towards atheism.
Very low probability, but short of zero. De facto atheist.
Strong atheist. 'I know there is no God.'

Dawkins places himself in the category 6 "Very low probability, but short of zero. De facto atheist." He has many times said that one cannot say with absolute certainty that God does not exist.

10

The WT's favorite "reasoning" method - the false dilemma

by sir82 in

jw
friends

as defined here: http://skepdic.com/falsedilemma.html.

the false dilemma (or false dichotomy) is a fallacy of reasoning that omits consideration of all reasonable alternatives.

sometimes called the either-or fallacy, one poses what looks like a true dilemma--i must pick one or the other--when, in fact, there are other viable alternatives.

Gladring

But Jesus said to him: “Do not YOU men try to prevent [him], for he that is not against YOU is for YOU .” - Luk 9: 50

go figure

150

Article: The Atheist's Dilemma

by BurnTheShips in

campos: the atheist's dilemmaby paul camposwhy is stanley fish so much smarter than richard dawkins?

that question occurred to me last week, while attending a lecture at which fish, the well-known literary and legal theorist, did the thing he always does, which is to make the following point over and over again:.

"no believer will find his faith shaken by evidence that is evidence only in the light of assumptions he does not share and considers flatly wrong.".

Gladring

He's claiming that if one draws up a list of things that Dawkins considers evidence for the existence of God, and another list of things Dawkins considers evidence for atheism, one list has nothing on it and the other list has everything else.

Strawman: Dawkins does not consider there to be proof for atheism, simply that there is no proof for God.

After all, a genuine atheist must interpret such an event as a temporarily inexplicable hallucination, or a sudden psychotic break, or a clever technological trick - in short, as anything but evidence that atheism is false. (An atheist who questions the truth of atheism is ceasing to be a genuine atheist precisely to the extent that he is asking himself a genuine question).

Fallacy - No true scotsman. see http://www.infidels.org/library/modern/mathew/logic.html#scots If we are allowed to re-write the dictionary we can win any argument.

Now Dawkins will object that he, unlike the religious believer, is committed to the methods of "science," and will therefore change his mind when evidence refuting his beliefs appears - but it just so happens none ever has.

RAmen! One of the few statements that I agree with.

What, for Dawkins, would constitute evidence of God's existence?

What, for Campos would constitute evidence of God's existence? This article is full of baseless assumption and no proof is offered. Dawkins has given examples of evidence which would contradict his worldview and make him reconsider his opinions. Rather than offer proof, the author is attacking Dawkins character.

If God is willing to prevent evil, but is not able to
Then He is not omnipotent.

If He is able, but not willing
Then He is malevolent.

If He is both able and willing
Then whence cometh evil?

If He is neither able nor willing
Then why call Him God?

Epicurus

150

Article: The Atheist's Dilemma

by BurnTheShips in

campos: the atheist's dilemmaby paul camposwhy is stanley fish so much smarter than richard dawkins?

that question occurred to me last week, while attending a lecture at which fish, the well-known literary and legal theorist, did the thing he always does, which is to make the following point over and over again:.

"no believer will find his faith shaken by evidence that is evidence only in the light of assumptions he does not share and considers flatly wrong.".

Gladring

I too have strong objections to this article. Right from the start he makes a massive assumption saying: "So why does [Dawkins] seem incapable of understanding what Fish is saying?" - how does the author know this. Perhaps Dawkins does understand, but rejects his arguments as false.

From this poor start, things only get worse. Anyone familiar with reviewing WT publications will recognise the fallacies in this article.

I cannot claim to speak for Dawkins himself, but I can speak for myself as an atheist and a humanist, and I will draw on some arguments advanced by Dawkins, Hitchens, Harris and others.

If we grant the existence of a deity, the christian still has all his work ahead of him. Sam Harris asks - if the whole population of the planet suffered a simultaneous amnesia, at what point would we discover that Jesus was born of a virgin, or Muhammed flew to Jerusalem on a horse, or Moses spoke to a burning bush ....? How will you distinguish which set of myths are true? However, scientific knowledge would be rediscovered in time.

Whether God exists or not does not affect the principles by which I live my life. My life is lived based on principles rooted in human values and search for truth. Suppose God appeared to me and asked me to kill my son (a la the Abraham story). I would have indisputable evidence for his existence, but it would not change how I live. A celestial dictator is still a dictator and should be treated just as any other dictator, benevolent or otherwise.

If moral truth and meaning depend on a god to establish them, then you admit to life having no intrinsic meaning. If moral truths are universal and independent of God then God is irrelevant and unnecessary.

One last point, written from Dawkins perspective - The only process that we know of that can produce complexity from simplicity is Darwinian natural selection (a crane). Intelligence appears late in the history of the universe, not at the beginning. If we were approached by a vastly superior intelligence (that some may call God) then it too must appear late and be the result of a long process of natural selection. A creator, a "sky god", who is eternal, always existing, is a sky hook - a non-explanation.

16

DF attending Memorial

by cameo-d in

what happens if a df person attends memorial service?.

will they be treated badly?.

would they be snubbed?.

Gladring

I was away from home for a few weeks one year, and I attended a memorial in another congregation. No one knew me but a couple of people made a point of telling me that "that person over there" was disfellowshipped just in case I accidentally said hello to them.

32

The one thing keeping me from total atheism/theism

by easyreader1970 in

jw
friends

i hate riding the fence.

if someone asked me right now if i believed in a creator (or creators), i would still say i don't know, in spite of everything i know about current science.. what's my hangup?

believe it or not, it's one thing.

Gladring

For me whether stuff has always been there, or stuff came from nothing isn't such a big deal. And it doesn't really affect my (lack of) belief in a deity. Whether the universe sprang from nothing, or has always been there, we don't know for sure - maybe we'll find out someday. Either way those are our two options, that's just the way the universe is.

The one that really wrecks my head is WHY the universe exists. I mean, why should something exist rather than nothing?

39

What did you find upset elders the most ?

by KAYTEE in

what i found that upset elders more than most things was, when you made them verify their statement with scriptural backing.. when you showed their complete lack of common sense coupled with lack of christian knowledge.. on one occasion when having a heated discussion, i constantly made them refer to the org.

book for the answer, they ridiculed me, saying "are you getting your little green book out again".. all i was trying to point out was the answer (according to the society) on the subject at hand, most organisation will have some sort of code of conduct, the little green book was theirs.. they wanted to be right in all things even if it meant going against the org.. kt.

.

Gladring

Three words: Data Protection Act

21

What is the WTS financial position?

by Roddy in

i know this may seen an obvious question but i'm wondering if their downward financial situation is accelerating in the last five years.. we know of the large real estate sell-offs in brooklyn and their large bethel layoffs -- things they never report on in their publications.

pushing more and more of the traveling overseer expenses to the local circuit and congregations.

how they have taken a lot of shortcuts with regards their printing operations.

Gladring

Ok, so I was going through some of the info on the links from dozy's post.

"Literature with a value of £2,400,000 was donated overseas, mainly to Africa."

http://www.charity-commission.gov.uk/registeredcharities/SIR/ENDS61%5C0001077961_SIR_07_E.PDF

How do you place a value on literature produced by volunteers using money given by volunteers? Is this the kind of humanitarian aid the WTBTS provides?

Related parties
Watch Tower Bible and Tract Society of Britain (the Society) works closely with International Bible Students Association (IBSA),
which permits the Society to use its facilities for the Society's charitable activities, and provides accommodation for volunteers.
IBSA makes a monthly service and maintenance charge to the Society for the facilities it uses and for providing accommodation for
volunteers connected with the Society's activities. The Society passes to IBSA the cost incurred in printing and distributing the Biblebased
religious literature manufactured and delivered to destinations on its behalf, and all other overhead costs.

Income from literature sold to IBSA 6,494,000

Income from literature donated overseas 2,710,000

Ok, so the literature is not for sale??? hmm... I guess the IBSA just made some "voluntary" donations for that literature then.

Also - they made an income on the literature they donated overseas????????

I found this too:

Reserves policy
Because of the nature and sources of the charity's income, the charity can plan confidently with relatively small reserves. The
established policy is to ensure that it has on hand in liquid funds at least 3 months working expenditure. At the year-end, the liquid
assets on hand were equivalent to 4.2 months of expenditure (2006: 4.2 months).

If everyone stopped donating, they would not have long before they had to start selling off assets.

Are there any forensic accountants out there. There sure is a lot of money going in a strange roundabout but I can't make sense of it.