atheists are, by definition, naturalistic materialists; i.e.
they believe that only the physical universe exists, only the nature exists therefore there is no supernatural and certainly no god.. can you, therefore, be an atheist but believe in logic and maths?
they're also not made of matter.. is it true to say, then, that the atheist worldview is contradictory?
A monistic materialist could easily sweep aside your argument by disputing the premise that logic is in itself a thing
I'm not saying logic is a thing. I'm saying it's not a thing. Therefore, how does it fit in with a naturalistic materialist worldview?
atheists are, by definition, naturalistic materialists; i.e.
they believe that only the physical universe exists, only the nature exists therefore there is no supernatural and certainly no god.. can you, therefore, be an atheist but believe in logic and maths?
they're also not made of matter.. is it true to say, then, that the atheist worldview is contradictory?
One guy says something and you jump through hoops and say all atheists beleive something and propose an "or" question based on it.
Either answer the questions or don't, it's up to you. You're jumping through hoops to avoid the issue;
Pick a side.
atheists are, by definition, naturalistic materialists; i.e.
they believe that only the physical universe exists, only the nature exists therefore there is no supernatural and certainly no god.. can you, therefore, be an atheist but believe in logic and maths?
they're also not made of matter.. is it true to say, then, that the atheist worldview is contradictory?
Passwordprotected, did you stop beating your wife. Please restrict your answer to "Yes" or "No" only.
That question presupposes something to have been proven, namely that I beat my wife. Now you're resorting to informal fallacies? How does that strengthen your argument?
atheists are, by definition, naturalistic materialists; i.e.
they believe that only the physical universe exists, only the nature exists therefore there is no supernatural and certainly no god.. can you, therefore, be an atheist but believe in logic and maths?
they're also not made of matter.. is it true to say, then, that the atheist worldview is contradictory?
So, did gravity change? no, but the way we humans understood it did once we had more information to figure it out. Our local measurements and experiments worked fine (and we still use the "old" math for calculations that are purely local in nature since they work).
Next question?
So the laws of science don't change and they're also not made of matter. Yet I'm guessing you believe that all that exists is ever-changing matter (i.e constantly evolving things). Doesn't the fact that the laws of science are immaterial and unchanging contradict your worldview? And doesn't that contradiction (remember the law of the excluded middle) mean your worldview is false?
atheists are, by definition, naturalistic materialists; i.e.
they believe that only the physical universe exists, only the nature exists therefore there is no supernatural and certainly no god.. can you, therefore, be an atheist but believe in logic and maths?
they're also not made of matter.. is it true to say, then, that the atheist worldview is contradictory?
I hope Perry finds his way to this thread and you two can laugh at how closed-minded people who disagree with you guys are.
I just hope that you and Perry agree, otherwise you will have to call each other closed-minded.
Surely you can see that resorting to ad hominem attacks doesn't strengthen what you're saying. I'm open minded enough to consider whether the naturalist materialistic world view has any validity or not.
I recognise that claiming that all that exists are things is a worldview that doesn't have any sustainability to it as logic and reason need to be applied to the evidence to form a conclusion. And logic and reason aren't things.
atheists are, by definition, naturalistic materialists; i.e.
they believe that only the physical universe exists, only the nature exists therefore there is no supernatural and certainly no god.. can you, therefore, be an atheist but believe in logic and maths?
they're also not made of matter.. is it true to say, then, that the atheist worldview is contradictory?
But....science knows this.
How does science know this if all that exists is matter?
atheists are, by definition, naturalistic materialists; i.e.
they believe that only the physical universe exists, only the nature exists therefore there is no supernatural and certainly no god.. can you, therefore, be an atheist but believe in logic and maths?
they're also not made of matter.. is it true to say, then, that the atheist worldview is contradictory?
Things which exist are measurable phenomena.
Show me a pint of logic.
atheists are, by definition, naturalistic materialists; i.e.
they believe that only the physical universe exists, only the nature exists therefore there is no supernatural and certainly no god.. can you, therefore, be an atheist but believe in logic and maths?
they're also not made of matter.. is it true to say, then, that the atheist worldview is contradictory?
You are creating a false dichotomy
No I'm not. Read what I'm actually asking.
Consider the law of “excluded middle” which says that a proposition is either true or false, there is no third option. What is the ontological foundation of this law? Is this law just a result of the chemical functions in our brain? If so then how is it universal? Is the law material? Of course not! Laws of logic are immaterial abstract entities, the very things that cannot exist if the only thing that exists is matter.
Dan Barker, in a debate with Dr. James White, attempted to refute this argument by saying that “logic is not a thing.” Well if by thinghe means a physical object then I would agree with him. The problem is that he already said that thingsare all that exist. So according to Dan Barker there is no logic.
Therefore, either all that exists is matter, constantly changing, or it isn't. A natural materialist has to borrow from someone else's worldview in order to prove what they believe. This contradicts their worldview and as a result makes it false.
atheists are, by definition, naturalistic materialists; i.e.
they believe that only the physical universe exists, only the nature exists therefore there is no supernatural and certainly no god.. can you, therefore, be an atheist but believe in logic and maths?
they're also not made of matter.. is it true to say, then, that the atheist worldview is contradictory?
Math has many branches including the use of irrational numbers.
In those instances, are the numbers consistently irrational? You see, how would understanding anything work without there being constant and unchanging laws?
atheists are, by definition, naturalistic materialists; i.e.
they believe that only the physical universe exists, only the nature exists therefore there is no supernatural and certainly no god.. can you, therefore, be an atheist but believe in logic and maths?
they're also not made of matter.. is it true to say, then, that the atheist worldview is contradictory?
Setting aside the argument that maths is constant and universal, it isn't when you enter the world of quantum mechanics, or that logic is similarly constant, which it isn't either, it depends on the environment etc. it is being applied in, even if these things were constants, how would that prove that god exists ?
So there are times where maths aren't constant and universal? Wouldn't that make them - in that instant - constant and universal? Same for logic.
And I don't think it's my responsibility to prove the existence of God! As I've already said, if a person doesn't want to believe in God and only wants to believe in what can be seen and proven in the natural, material world, then that's up to them.
I'm just asking the question as to whether claiming that all that exists is matter - and constantly changing matter at that - is contradictory to holding up the laws of logic and maths.
