Can you be an atheist and believe in logic and maths?

passwordprotected

Atheists are, by definition, naturalistic materialists; i.e. they believe that only the physical universe exists, only the nature exists therefore there is no supernatural and certainly no God.

Can you, therefore, be an atheist but believe in logic and maths? As far as I can tell, logic isn't a thing. And neither is maths. Logic isn't made of anything, it has no matter. And neither does maths.

Naturalistic materialists believe that the world is constantly changing, as 'proven' by evolution. Therefore, can an atheist believe in logic? Afterall, does logic ever change? And what about maths; does maths ever change? Or are both universal and unchanging? For example, are there parts of the world - or a time in history - when stubbing your toe wasn't painful? Was there a time when it was logical to hit yourself over the head with a blunt object? Was there ever a time where 2+2=5? Are there parts of the planet where this is true?

Of course not. Logic and maths are constant and universal. They're also not made of matter.

Is it true to say, then, that the atheist worldview is contradictory? Either there is only constantly changing matter or there isn't. Either their worldview is absolutely true, or it isn't. Logic has an excluded middle; something either is or it is not. There either is only a natural, material universe - and this worldview is absolutely true - or it is not.

Can an atheist - a naturalistic materialist - argue for their worldview without being fundamentally contradictory to it? And does that contradiction prove that their worldview is in fact false?

Terry

Can you, therefore, be an atheist but believe in logic and maths? As far as I can tell, logic isn't a thing. And neither is maths. Logic isn't made of anything, it has no matter. And neither does maths.

Thought exists.

Logic connects our thoughts in a non-contradictory procedure to avoid error in our conclusions.

Math is like writing. Instead of words, quantities are involved.

No biggie!

Logic and Math are similar to Art.

Art can be literal or imaginative.

With conversations about God, the believer makes extraordinary assertions. These require extraordinary proofs. What I hear Atheists saying is that those extraordinary proofs are not forthcoming.

Mathmatical proofs, on the other hand, apply to all manner of practical applications which certainly are demonstrable.

Just what we are doing right now, for example, is an example in concrete terms. We are exchaning intangible thoughts using binary codes.

Cheers!

sir82

Atheists are, by definition, naturalistic materialists

That's just silly.

Atheists, by definition, do not believe that sufficient evidence exists to indicate the existence of any god.

Period.

If you're going to try to point out fallacies in someone else's worldview, first start by accurately representing that worldview.

passwordprotected

Logic and Math are similar to Art.
Art can be literal or imaginative.

Can logic or maths be literal or imaginative? Are you saying that logic and maths, like art, are open to interpretation? Sometimes hitting yourself on the head with a blunt object with result in joyful singing, other times with blinding pain. Sometimes 2+2=4 but other times, according to whether we take it literally or not, it can be 5 or 17 or 24,003.

I don't see my question about the possible contradictory nature of the naturalistic materialist worldview being addressed; either everything is matter and constantly changing, or it isn't?

Where did logic and maths come from? How come all people around the world have logic and maths?

And what about thought; did thought pre-date logic or maths? Did 2+2 only = 4 whenever we thought about it? Surely, if all that exists is matter, then our thoughts are just neurons firing and chemical reactions going on in the matter that makes up our brains.

If that's true, 2+2 may = 4 for me but 18 for someone else. You say that logic makes sure we aren't contradictory. But that truth is contradictory to the naturalistic materialist worldview; if all that exists is matter, atoms colliding into atoms, where does logic come from?

If thought were the deciding factor in logic and maths, these laws would be subjective. But they aren't, are they? They're objective, constant and universal.

Atheists look for extraordinary proof of God. But how could they ever consider processing any proof that may be offered without having to use logic and reason, both or which are neither matter (things) or constantly changing.

passwordprotected

That's just silly.
Atheists, by definition, do not believe that sufficient evidence exists to indicate the existence of any god.
Period.
If you're going to try to point out fallacies in someone else's worldview, first start by accurately representing that worldview.

And by denying the existence of God proscribe to a naturalistic materialist worldview. If all that exists is the natural and matter.......

That being said, are you going to completely ignore the rest of the post?

OnTheWayOut

Atheists only believe that there is no God. They are free to believe in alternate universes, alternate realities, time travel, logic, aliens, math, politeness, love, things that change, things that stay the same.

Atheists don't automatically believe in evolution, but many do. They are free to believe whatever they want.

Since this is an antagonistic thread, I propose that Christians are required to believe in magic.

Terry

Logic and Math are similar to Art.

Art can be literal or imaginative.

Can logic or maths be literal or imaginative?

Lewis Carroll in Through the Looking Glass and Alice's Adventures in Wonderland used Logic in all sorts of imaginative ways.

Math has many branches including the use of irrational numbers.

Cheers.

wobble

An atheist is someone who actively denies the existence of God, as opposed to someone who is simply indifferent or who feels there is not sufficient evidence, ie an Agnostic.

The atheist is therefore a harder nut to crack for a believer like our friend Password. But your cause Dear Password, is not enhanced by using spurious arguments, and a very JW sounding one at that. Defining us atheists by what we "cannot" believe in.

Setting aside the argument that maths is constant and universal, it isn't when you enter the world of quantum mechanics, or that logic is similarly constant, which it isn't either, it depends on the environment etc. it is being applied in, even if these things were constants, how would that prove that god exists ?

I asked you on another thread what your proof for the existence of god was, I don't think you have provided any yet.

Wobble

passwordprotected

Since this is an antagonistic thread, I propose that Christians are required to believe in magic.

How is the thread antagonistic? And what do Christians have to do with it?

passwordprotected

Setting aside the argument that maths is constant and universal, it isn't when you enter the world of quantum mechanics, or that logic is similarly constant, which it isn't either, it depends on the environment etc. it is being applied in, even if these things were constants, how would that prove that god exists ?

So there are times where maths aren't constant and universal? Wouldn't that make them - in that instant - constant and universal? Same for logic.

And I don't think it's my responsibility to prove the existence of God! As I've already said, if a person doesn't want to believe in God and only wants to believe in what can be seen and proven in the natural, material world, then that's up to them.

I'm just asking the question as to whether claiming that all that exists is matter - and constantly changing matter at that - is contradictory to holding up the laws of logic and maths.

Can you be an atheist and believe in logic and maths?

Share this