@Nathan: no, I've always been PasswordProtected since day 1.
passwordprotected
JoinedPosts by passwordprotected
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19
First Proper Chat With the JWs in Almost 11 Years
by passwordprotected insince disassociating in october 2008, i've had little to no direct contact with the jws, apart from immediate family members (ie my parents).
i've lived in my rented flat since may 2014 and haven't had a knock on the door in that whole time.
until saturday morning.
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19
First Proper Chat With the JWs in Almost 11 Years
by passwordprotected insince disassociating in october 2008, i've had little to no direct contact with the jws, apart from immediate family members (ie my parents).
i've lived in my rented flat since may 2014 and haven't had a knock on the door in that whole time.
until saturday morning.
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passwordprotected
Since disassociating in October 2008, I've had little to no direct contact with the JWs, apart from immediate family members (ie my parents).
I've lived in my rented flat since May 2014 and haven't had a knock on the door in that whole time. Until Saturday morning. I was awake early (5:30 am), had coffee, been to the gym, done some work and was chilling on the sofa. Around 11 am or so there was a knock on my door. Through the glass panel in the door, I could see someone standing, facing the door at a 3/4 angle, which always suggests the presence of another person. Classic JW-at-the-door stance.
And yes, when I opened the door I was greeted by two female JWs, neither of whom I recognised, even though I live in the territory of the congregation where I served as an elder.
Here it was, my opportunity. The one I've thought about often over the last 11 years. What I'd say to the Witnesses should they call at my door.
So, how did I handle it?
Not the way I anticipated.
You see, I don't see myself as an ex-JW or an apostate as much as I see myself as an atheist who was once religious.
So, I handled it that way. I spoke to them the same way I'd speak to any religious person who asked my opinion on god, holy books etc. I gave them no indication that I used to be a Witness, although I did tell them I used to be very religious and that I had extensively studied the Bible and was aware enough of their beliefs to know about the Paradise Earth doctrine.
The younger of the two Witnesses opened the conversation by telling me they were visiting all the homes in my area asking if it's possible to have a personal relationship with god.
I replied, "Which god?".
That led the discussion onto their belief that there's one true god, to which I asked about the 1000s of other gods, gods they don't believe in. I explained my stance as an atheist and ran the Dawkins line (also used by Ricky Gervais) that I just disbelieve in one more god than them.
The lead Witness then showed me a "verse from the Bible" on her iPhone (I was appalled by this), Ps 83:18, which of course, proved not one single point she was hoping to make. The other Witness, an older lady, chipped in with the comment "surely if god has revealed his personal name to us, this means he wants us to have a relationship with him".
My reply to this was, "but if I believed in Vishnu I could say the same thing". To which they both conceded the point. The younger Witness said that religion is often cultural, to which I agreed, adding "it's an accident of birth".
I explained that I hadn't always been an atheist, and they wondered if it was "the church I'd gone to" that had put me off the idea of god. I outlined that all Christian sects essentially believe the same 4 things:
- god created the earth
- man sinned
- Jesus was sent to earth
- Jesus died to save mankind from sin
The Witnesses agreed to this. I told them that I once believed those things, but upon further research, I came to the conclusion that "we're probably the product of evolution, the earth's probably older than the Bible would have us believe, there's probably no afterlife and Jesus probably didn't exist."
I was very careful to use the word "probably" as I deliberately wanted to leave the discussion open to debate and not appear closed-minded. I told them that I had learned that I had to choose to believe in myself and base as many of my beliefs on facts, logic and reason.
The younger Witness agreed that it's important to believe in ourselves but they also carefully study the Bible to make sure of their faith. I countered that by gently pointing out what she was doing was confirmation bias: choosing to look for evidence to back up what she already believes.
I told them that I don't fear death, don't believe in an afterlife and I'm absolutely fine with that. I told them that I know people who hold out hope of seeing dead loved ones again in heaven or on a Paradise Earth, but that's all it is: a hope. And if they want to believe that and get comfort from it, that's fine. But that's all it is, it's not an evidence-backed philosophy, it's just something to get comfort from. I no longer need that.
On the subject of Jesus, I told them I'd extensively researched whether Jesus actually existed or not - to prove it to myself -and that I couldn't find any tangible historical proof outwith what's written in the Bible. The older Witness said, "well, Muslims believe in Jesus and call him a great prophet". This just showed the Witnesses have poor skills as Christian apologists as my reply was "but the Quran was written around 600 years after Jesus is supposed to have lived, so it can't be considered contemporaneous historical evidence." Again, she had to concede the point.
I offered that if there's little to no evidence in Jesus, then the whole idea of the Christian faith is simply a subjective experience not based on objective evidence. And, I said, that's absolutely fine, as long as you recognise your faith is just your subjective experience, something you want to be true, even if it isn't and there's no evidence to affirm it.
Of course, this notion directly applies to their faith in a "faithful and discreet slave" chosen by Jesus in 1919...
As the conversation wound up, I told them that I'm perfectly happy in my life. I don't need answers as to why bad things happen, what happens when we die etc. I'm perfectly happy not knowing these things because we can't know these things.
The younger Witness ended up not having much to say, and the older one politely conceded much of what I said. We ended the chat amicably, I thanked them for their time, they thanked me for mine, and I wished them luck.
Afterwards, with adrenaline pumping, I spoke with my 15-year-old daughter. She asked me who had been at the door and, giggling like a kid, I told her. She started giggling too and said she heard me "running Ricky Gervais patter" about believing in one less god than them.
CONCLUSION:
I'm glad I handled it the way I did. I know enough about the cult mindset to realise that to attack their governing body is seen as a direct attack on them and they would have left immediately. Instead, I was able to position myself as someone who was once like them, but was now happy and content in life without the mental gymnastics blind faith requires. I deliberately came across as respectful but knowledgable which helped them lower their guard. And by gently undermining the foundation of their Christian-based ideology I hope I got them both to think.
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14
Life Update 2019
by passwordprotected init's been a while since i was anywhere close to being active here, or on any other ex-jw forum or facebook group.
i rarely think about the religion and have little-to-no interest in it.. however, i do, very occasionally pop in here.
hence this update, 3 years on since my last one - https://www.jehovahs-witness.com/topic/5720228449222656/update-on-my-journey-8-years-after-end-watchtower-control.
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passwordprotected
It's been a while since I was anywhere close to being active here, or on any other ex-JW forum or Facebook Group. I rarely think about the religion and have little-to-no interest in it.
However, I do, very occasionally pop in here. Hence this update, 3 years on since my last one - https://www.jehovahs-witness.com/topic/5720228449222656/update-on-my-journey-8-years-after-end-watchtower-control
Personal Life
I'm still with the wonderful woman I met in 2015. We got engaged last year, but have no immediate plans to marry as we have 5 kids between us and don't want to deal with the upheaval of finding a big enough home for all of them, plus we live in different school districts.
Her large, crazy, fun family has adopted me and my children as their own, which is a great thing to experience.
My oldest son turns 20 in January. He left the cult with his mum and me when he was 8. He's studying psychology at university now, reads deep esoteric books and has an interest in religion from an anthropological point of view. I'm overrun with pride in the man he's becoming.
My daughter was 3 when we exited, she turned 15 this month. She's studious, sarcastic, cheeky and funny. At school, she's excelling and some teachers have suggested she go to university to study social sciences then pursue a career in law. She's tall, good looking and I know I'm going to have my hands full with eager boys at some point...
My youngest son is 10 and was born about a year after we left the religion. He's never known any sort of religious indoctrination. Raising him is effortless. I never get any trouble from him. He's polite, kind and mature for his age. He's showing a real talent for art and animation and he's effortlessly cool.
Work Life
This took a bit of a hit at the start of the year, which was fairly unexpected. So, this year has been all about learning new skills and re-building my business almost from the ground up. I've spent hours learning photography and better videography and I'm making an ok living again. I've recently taken on a start-up business as a client and helped them with all of their marketing and graphic design, the latter of which I had little-to-no skills in this time last year.
I also launched a podcast which you can listen to here - https://socialexperimentpodcast.simplecast.com/ - we don't talk about religion!
JW Life
I have zero contact with JWs, apart from my elderly and infirm parents who are now in their 70s. My mum has dementia and my dad has various ailments associated with age. I see them from time to time and my dad's now very pro-active about keeping in touch with his own family - none of them are JWs - on WhatsApp, which is great to see. I think he's realising the value of true relationships rather than the conditional hollows ones the Org offers.
It's my parent's 50th wedding anniversary today. My niece - my DFd brother's daughter - has organised a surprise meal for them. I'm going with my partner, her daughter and my 3 kids. My DFd brother's going with his partner and their 3 kids. My faded second cousin will also be there.
How is that going to go, considering the Org rules on associating and eating meals with unbelievers/DFd ones?
I have no idea and I don't really care. Maybe my parents will baulk at it, maybe they won't. Maybe they'll feel bad about it later, maybe they won't. It's not any of our problem. We're there to help them celebrate 50 years of marriage, but on our terms. Otherwise, who would they have?
On another note, one of my photography clients is a local high-end barbershop. The guy who cleans the windows is a well-known local JW elder, whom I had as BSG conductor for years. I've been working in the shop a few times when he's come by to clean the windows. The first time I felt awkward and stayed out of the way. But now, I don't care. I've got nothing to feel awkward about. He does.
That's pretty much it! I'm now just over 2 years away from my 50th birthday. I'm fully aware that the majority of my life has been lived. My youth and vigour were claimed by the cult. But it is what it is. I'm determined to continue living the best possible life that I can. Raising my children to be the best possible human beings. Enjoying and learning from life's ups and downs.
What else can you do?
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62
TO ALL BODIES OF ELDERS "Handling Cases of Drug Abuse" September 1, 2018
by Not_Culty inhttps://jwglossary.blogspot.com/2018/09/to-all-bodies-of-elders-handling-cases.html.
to all bodies of elders "handling cases of drug abuse".
september 1, 2018. to all bodies of elders re: handling cases of drug abusedear brothers: as noted below, the procedure for handling the misuse of marijuana and the abuse of medi- cal, illicit, or addictive drugs has been adjusted to harmonize with the procedure for handling the misuse of tobacco.
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passwordprotected
Medical marijuana - is it addictive?
Medically prescribed opiates - absolutely addictive.
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114
The biggest news of the year for Mr. and Mrs. Totally ADD
by Still Totally ADD inthis is bigger than christmas and birthdays wrap into one.
thanks to the australian royal commission our youngest son has woke up.
we received a e-mail from him tonight where he apologized to us for shunning us all these years, how bad he felt for doing this.
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passwordprotected
Amazing, fantastic news.
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170
UK justice..
by zeb intommie robinson has reported often about what he sees as the demise of british society by the imposition of 'sharia' norms.. https://www.infowars.com/update-tommy-robinson-gets-13-months-for-livestreaming-outside-courthouse/?utm_source=nightly+newsletter&utm_campaign=9e3ceb30f6-email_campaign_2018_05_25_03_10&utm_medium=email&utm_term=0_e12661a83c-9e3ceb30f6-38680565.
yesterday he was jailed for 13 months for reporting outside a court in the uk.
his was a non violent offence.. what no community service?
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passwordprotected
That any ex-JW would seek to defend in any way, shape or form a high-control, fanatical religious ideology that seeks to enforce its worldview on anyone, really puzzles me.
Here's some info on Pakistani Muslims.
1. In Pakistan, or to give it it's Sunday name, the Islamic Republic of Pakistan, the penalty for atheism is death. Fact.
2. In the UK, Pakistani inbreeding is a problem, and inbreeding can cause all sorts of physical and psychological problems. Fact.
3. In the UK, it's been acknowledged that Pakistani Muslims are creating a country within a country. If you don't think that's a problem, refer back to point 1. Trevor Phillips, who used to be the Chairman of Racial Equality and a big supporting of Muslims in the UK said in 2016:
‘There are now nearly 3m Muslims living in Britain. Half of them were born abroad, and their numbers are being steadily reinforced by immigration from Africa, the Middle East, eastern Europe and the Far East, as well as the traditional flow from the Indian subcontinent. The best projections suggest that, by the middle of the century, the number of Muslims in Britain and elsewhere in Europe will at least double, given the youthfulness of the communities.’ - source
He also admits that Muslims aren't integrating in the wider UK community than hoped, and that they're more likely to hold on to the beliefs and cultures of the "old country", ie. places like the Islamic Republic of Pakistan, than not.
Again, if you don't think this is a problem for the UK, go back to point 1.
4. "To learn who rules over you, simply find out who you are not allowed to criticize" - possibly Voltaire.
So who's in charge in the UK? Two key political figures are the Mayor of London, the UK's capital, where in a recent poll 25% of its citizens stated that homosexuality is morally wrong, twice the percentage of the rest of the UK(!), Sadiq Khan. Son of Pakistani immigrants, and an avowed Muslim.
The Home Secretary, the person in charge of, among other things, immigration and the police forces of England and Wales, is Sajid Javid, son of Pakistani immigrants, and an avowed Muslim.
So, we have a pervasive ideology in the UK, that while still in the minority, is forecast to become the majority, that executes atheists (among other horrendous things), won't integrate, inbreeds and wants to foist its law (Shariah) on the world, with key political positions in the UK being held by adherents to this ideology.
Is anyone here really trying to say this isn't a problem?
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170
UK justice..
by zeb intommie robinson has reported often about what he sees as the demise of british society by the imposition of 'sharia' norms.. https://www.infowars.com/update-tommy-robinson-gets-13-months-for-livestreaming-outside-courthouse/?utm_source=nightly+newsletter&utm_campaign=9e3ceb30f6-email_campaign_2018_05_25_03_10&utm_medium=email&utm_term=0_e12661a83c-9e3ceb30f6-38680565.
yesterday he was jailed for 13 months for reporting outside a court in the uk.
his was a non violent offence.. what no community service?
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passwordprotected
There was a protest outside Downing Street on Saturday, however, the press reported on it as "far-right protest", as if they'd polled everyone in attendance for their political stance.
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170
UK justice..
by zeb intommie robinson has reported often about what he sees as the demise of british society by the imposition of 'sharia' norms.. https://www.infowars.com/update-tommy-robinson-gets-13-months-for-livestreaming-outside-courthouse/?utm_source=nightly+newsletter&utm_campaign=9e3ceb30f6-email_campaign_2018_05_25_03_10&utm_medium=email&utm_term=0_e12661a83c-9e3ceb30f6-38680565.
yesterday he was jailed for 13 months for reporting outside a court in the uk.
his was a non violent offence.. what no community service?
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passwordprotected
"His life can not be guarented in prison - the last time he was in prison (for fraud) he was put in solitary confinement for his own protection.
The two options here must be solitary confinement and a non-custodial punishment."
The last time he was in prison the guards put him in a room then allowed 4 or 5 Muslim prisons in and closed the door. He lost his front teeth, but the guards had been assured that 1. they wouldn't kill him and 2. if they didn't have some access to him, they'd do worse to someone else, even a prison officer.
As he put it, some of the Mulsim prisoners are in for life for atrocious crimes. They have no issue killing someone in prison and having a few more years added to their tariff. The officers fear for their own safety and will comply to protect themselves.
Yes, one of the occasions an officer told him "when you're told to leave your cell refuse" and this resulting in him being put in solitary confinement, but it wasn't State mandated for his protection, but rather a nod and a wink from a screw trying to help.
During another incarceration, he was tipped off that he was going to be attacked with boiling water and sugar, and he was told which cell the attack was coming from, so he hit first. This was covered in a UK documentary where he was, of course, made to look like the bad guy.
I'd be very surprised if he makes it out alive this time.
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170
UK justice..
by zeb intommie robinson has reported often about what he sees as the demise of british society by the imposition of 'sharia' norms.. https://www.infowars.com/update-tommy-robinson-gets-13-months-for-livestreaming-outside-courthouse/?utm_source=nightly+newsletter&utm_campaign=9e3ceb30f6-email_campaign_2018_05_25_03_10&utm_medium=email&utm_term=0_e12661a83c-9e3ceb30f6-38680565.
yesterday he was jailed for 13 months for reporting outside a court in the uk.
his was a non violent offence.. what no community service?
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passwordprotected
So ... Tommy Robinson. I understand where he comes from completely ... but ... like many "crusaders" you can go too far. As I see it he had an accumulation of offences which meant the "slammer" for him. 13 months seems disproportionate but if he is a good boy he will be out after six and a half and as a "known" face he is unlikely to be killed/injured in prison.
As for the case he is protesting about - there is a very real danger that (if he "skews" the case by highlighting details or inciting a view that defendants are already guilty) there is a very real chance that the defence will cry "foul" and there will be a mistrial and they might get off scot-free.
Let's be clear, any mention of Robinson on the news or in new media will have "poison the well" labels such as "far-right", "racist", "Islamaphobic", such as those used by the press covering the Downing Street protest on Saturday.
The gagging order isn't necessarily against Robinson's arrest, but rather against the court case for the grooming gang, outside which he was live streaming. The argument FOR the court case having a gagging order is to protect the witnesses from intimidation. Read into that what you will...
However, Robinson asked the police officers in attendance if what he was doing, live streaming from the public pavement BEFORE the sentencing hearing (ie. the court case had already been heard by a judge and the defendants, all of whom, I believe, were out on police bail, were returning to hear what the verdict/sentencing would be), was ok or if he couldn't do it. And, of course, he was told he could do it by the police; public pavement, no restriction on filming or live streaming from there.
He was careful not to get on camera anyone not associated with the case who were there as witnesses/observers.
He also notes during the live stream that the trial judge was watching him from the window, and there are screenshots that seem to back this up.
A few minutes later, 6 police officers arrive to arrest him on suspicion of causing a breach of the peace.
The breach of the peace edict is a very tricky one legally as you can be arrest on SUSPICION of causing one, or even the pre-crime-esque charge of conspiring to cause one (ie. you actually haven't, but you may do in the future). People who planned peaceful protests before Prince William's wedding were arrested a couple of days before the event in case they went ahead with their protest and somehow caused a breach of the peace.
It's also an edict that can be rolled out and applied to just about anything; standing in a public place where your presence may not be wanted by third parties. Handing out leaflets criticising an ideology. Etc etc. Breach of the peace is used often by the police/state to stop such behaviour.
Now the very word "suspicion" surely implies evidence then needs to be gathered to establish whether the suspicion is based on fact. However, the very quick turn around of his arrest and sentencing suggests, to me, that this didn't happen.
Of course, he'd already been given a 3 month suspended sentence for his actions where he confronted men convicted of being part of a grooming gang outside a court. So where the 13 months comes from is strange, as surely it would be, upon the delivery of evidence, a 3-month sentence.
On the case he was reporting on, from what I've read there wasn't a jury that could be influenced by media coverage, the hearing was in front of a judge only. However, who can tell if this is accurate as there's zero press reporting on it. If, though, it was a judge and a judge only, how could covering the case be seen as potentially skewing the verdict?
To me, Islam is the holy cow religion. It cannot be criticised. It cannot be held to account. Within Islam there are clear teachings to hold no law other than Shariah, and there have been loud, vocal protests by Muslims in the UK against UK law, featuring banners that say things like "the only law we obey is Shariah". So we have a situation in the UK where groups of Islamic followers are breaking the law, harming children and the press either won't or can't cover these cases. The police have their hands tied by politician's (such as the Labour MP who liked and retweet a comment that the victims of the Rotherham rape gangs should "shut their mouths for the sake of diversity) and Mayors (like Khan in London).
So-called "Islamaphobia" is put in the same category as homophobia, racism and sexism when in reality Islam is a fucking choice...
So yes, Robinson put himself in a dodgy situation, but when you retrace the circumstances that led to his arrest, he can't really be to blame, but rather the fear of offending Muslims, Muslim intimidation and the liberal/leftwing policies that protect them.
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Material such as the film at the end of this years convention confirms that I was right to take my kids out the religion
by jambon1 init’s quite affirming to see the horrific material that they’re serving up at the convention this year.
aside from blatant homophobia, the scenes at the end of the convention that are discussed on another thread stoop to new levels of fear mongering.
it seems to occur to nobody inside the organisation that this kind of material could trigger fear, deprsssion, anxiety, stress.
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passwordprotected
During my brief time as PIMO*, a friend of my oldest son (who was probably 7 or 8 at the time) answered at the Watchtower study:
"My friends at school are bad and Jehovah is going to kill them."
Before being PIMO, I would have let that comment wash over my head. But in that moment I knew, without a doubt, that I had to get my children out of that toxic mess. That a 7 or 8 year old boy was GIVEN that answer by his parents and the WT Study Conductor's response was "that's right" shows up dangerous this cult is to young minds in particular.
10 years later, I'm out, my kids are out with little to no damage.
However, the young boy who made that comment is still in, but his Facebook shows photos of him and the friends Jehovah hates drinking Buckfast, throwing gang signs, etc. Lovely.
This video is incredibly dangerous.
*Took me a while to figure out what the fuck that meant!