Posts by hillary

135

My theory about the behavior and obsession of some ex-JWs

by Simon in

jw
friends

i've had this theory for some time and alluded to it occassionally but have never explored it in detail.. it is of course a huge generalisation so no, not everyone will fit into the boxes and i'd like people's opinion.

i don't know everyone's circumstances so it's based on a small sample of some of those i do know something about.

it could be completely wrong, it's just an idea.. basically, i have seen a difference between some of those ex-jws who walked out vs those who were kicked out.. the most bitter and obsessive seem to be the kicked out and, i must add, those who were legitimately kicked out.

hillary_step

LisaAnn,

What's NOT helpful for me is listening to a flame war by Hilary_Step and Gerard.

If your obviously gentle sensibilities are disturbed by that mild interchange, then your life on XJW discussion boards is likely to be short and less than sweet.

You need a thick skin to post on these Boards and just for the record, being 'helpful' is not what these boards are about. They are about discussion, opinion and individuality, and subsequently can be rather frightening to a newly emerging JW where such things were viewed as sinful and where passive-agreesive behavior won the day.

Jump in with both feet LisaAnn, speak your mind, no-one has died from posting here yet.

HS

135

My theory about the behavior and obsession of some ex-JWs

by Simon in

jw
friends

i've had this theory for some time and alluded to it occassionally but have never explored it in detail.. it is of course a huge generalisation so no, not everyone will fit into the boxes and i'd like people's opinion.

i don't know everyone's circumstances so it's based on a small sample of some of those i do know something about.

it could be completely wrong, it's just an idea.. basically, i have seen a difference between some of those ex-jws who walked out vs those who were kicked out.. the most bitter and obsessive seem to be the kicked out and, i must add, those who were legitimately kicked out.

hillary_step

Gerard,

I am honestly stunned at your lack of comprehension. STILL you do not see the point.

You and Simon state that all DF'd members deserved it because of XYZ,

Where do you get the notion that iether one of us said that members DESERVED their treatment at the hands of the WTS. Let me try yet again. This is NOTHING to do with whether a person DESERVED the treatment they received at the hands of the WTS. This has ALL to do with the WTS having a set of rules and those rules being broken. As I have said, now numerous times, whether those rules were FAIR, JUST or MORAL is NOT the point. At the moment of baptism JW's AGREE TO PLAY BY THE RULES.

I presume you work. What if your pizza company in the interview for the job decides that you must wear a pink glove on your right hand and a blue one on your left hand and you agree to these terms. Then when you start work you decide that you do not want to work within these rules and throw away your gloves. Does that make you evil? No. Are the rules of your company absurd? Yes, of course they are. Did you break them? YES.

Get it NOW?

HS

135

My theory about the behavior and obsession of some ex-JWs

by Simon in

jw
friends

i've had this theory for some time and alluded to it occassionally but have never explored it in detail.. it is of course a huge generalisation so no, not everyone will fit into the boxes and i'd like people's opinion.

i don't know everyone's circumstances so it's based on a small sample of some of those i do know something about.

it could be completely wrong, it's just an idea.. basically, i have seen a difference between some of those ex-jws who walked out vs those who were kicked out.. the most bitter and obsessive seem to be the kicked out and, i must add, those who were legitimately kicked out.

hillary_step

ibme,

Hillary-step let me just say, off the topic, that your vile USAGE OF WORDS in dealing with Gerard is not becoming.

As it was Gerard who first insulted me with 'vile USAGE OF WORDS', and as you have nothing to say regarding that, your words fall on deaf ears.

I would note in passing, that being 'becoming' to idiots is rather like a fat, ugly, hairy man dressing in drag expecting free drinks outside of Happy Hour.

HS

8

Albert Schweitzer and Roland de Vaux: advice needed

by behemot in

i'm considering getting from the library albert schweitzer's the quest of the historical jesus.

a critical study of its progress from reimarus to wrede (1906)and roland de vaux's ancient israel volume 1: social institutions (1958) and volume 2: religious institutions (1960).. i'm aware that biblical studies have gone a long way since these two (already classic) works were written, but i was wondering whether they are still worth reading or have become in the meantime completely outdated.. anybody read them?

your advice welcome.. behemot.

hillary_step

behemot,

The work by Schweitzer is imo pretty much overeached by more modern studies of the life, or non-life of Christ. Roland de Vaux however I would recommend, especially Volume I which is well researched and still sits well on shelves with more modern studies.

An interesting book which I have read recently is Volume 4 of Roland Bauckham's, 'The Book Of Acts In Its First Century Setting - Palastinian Setting,' which has much to say about the subject at hand. I particular liked his more scientific approach to numbering the early Christians. I corresponded with Bauckham over a number of matters and found him to be a very interesting and committed historian.

My own studies over the years have led me to a similar conclusion to others on this thread, that is, that a historical man-christ probably did exist upon which the myths were built.

HS

49

Caption this. . .

by John Doe in

jw
friends

.

hillary_step

Who ate the waiter?

HS

11

GOLD ! So Pretty & Sparkling...

by Rabbit in

luckily the un is 'on the job' , plus other countries and big gold trading companies have formed 'investigating' commitees to look into any nasty accusations of dangerous child labor.

and...good news !

they didn't 'see' any problems.... reading this story, i realized the truth of the old sage, "walk a mile hundred miles in another mans shoes little boys flip-flops.".

hillary_step

Rabbit,

Yes, it is indeed an outrage, one of many social outrages in Africa. Unfortunately the work done by these children is filling a basic need, that of supply and demand, and the unscrupulous profit. Whenever the adult workers in many of these nations in Africa attempt to organize Trade Unions, they are brutally put down.

What is so sad is that these things have been happening for centuries, most of us live and die without even considering the misery that a large part of the world lives in.

On another point, you note:

Here's what I did not know. Luckily the UN is 'on the job' , plus other countries and BIG gold trading companies have formed 'investigating' commitees to look into any nasty accusations of dangerous Child Labor. And...GOOD NEWS ! They didn't 'see' any problems...

I have to be honest and say that I cannot understand the cynicism aimed so often on this Board toward the UN. It is a huge organization, lumbering and imperfect, like all government but it does save millions of lives each year. People seem to be able to accept that their own governments move slowly and lumber along doing their best, then sneer at one of the biggest 'governments' on earth, that though imperfect protects the interests of millions and keeps tens of millions of Africans alive each day.

The report that you quote above mentions nothing of the UN not 'seeing any problems', on the contrary, it seems to be the UN that have actually researched the issue and provided statistical evidence of this outrage and are bringing this to public notice.

HS

135

My theory about the behavior and obsession of some ex-JWs

by Simon in

jw
friends

i've had this theory for some time and alluded to it occassionally but have never explored it in detail.. it is of course a huge generalisation so no, not everyone will fit into the boxes and i'd like people's opinion.

i don't know everyone's circumstances so it's based on a small sample of some of those i do know something about.

it could be completely wrong, it's just an idea.. basically, i have seen a difference between some of those ex-jws who walked out vs those who were kicked out.. the most bitter and obsessive seem to be the kicked out and, i must add, those who were legitimately kicked out.

hillary_step

Gerard,

Your condescenting comments are amusing at best. Here's one for you: I have never been a JW, Hillary. So between the two of us, who is the ignorant asshole that got sucked into a cult? (How do you like this generalization, Hillary?)

Where becoming a JW is concerned, yes I admit it was not the smartest move in my life, but what the hell does this have to do with your ability to read and rationalize?

Let me answer my own question, as you seem incapable of admitting to your failures. It has NOTHING to do with point at hand.

I am amazed that you can speak at all with your lips so tight to Simon's butt; here it marches Sir Simon with a stupid blanket statement reeking of superiority and having figured human nature, and you two hide behind a cult's rule book that disqualifies any feeling instead of considering humanity and vulnerability.

You really are a dumbass. You have still not seen the obvious principle here that everybody else has. Do they all have 'lips so tight on Simon's butt', or is it that you are as dense as boxwood. The latter, given the evidence above is the obvious choice.

You misread the point Simon was making and you STILL cannot see that, which yes, makes you the 'ignorant asshole'. I have three times now explained to you that Simon was not moralizing about the VALUE of WTS rules, he was merely indicating that these rules were applied in a given situation. Let me quote his words again:

The kicked-outs I'm thinking of are those where there were good reasons to kick them out based on the rules in place.

Let me write them again in a way that might get your attention:

The kicked-outs I'm thinking of are those where there were good reasons to kick them out BASED ON THE RULES IN PLACE. <--- Clue. The caps are important. ;)

Ever experienced the terror of an imminent violent death (DF) ? Sure any little girl deserves it, no matter what she did....... the rules are the rules. She was born into it so she knew it and deserves whatever comes her way via heavenly Brooklyn. She is absolutely not entitled to suffer of post traumatic stress disorder...because Simon said so. The JW child abusers are also operating under your beloved rule book when they claaim repentence, and their victims are not entitled to anger or frustration because Simon said so......and because Hillary uses red ink in her posts

My God but you are dumb! Can you not see that neither Simon or myself have in ANY way defending the WTS rules, or the morality or immorality of their application.

Shaking head......

HS

135

My theory about the behavior and obsession of some ex-JWs

by Simon in

jw
friends

i've had this theory for some time and alluded to it occassionally but have never explored it in detail.. it is of course a huge generalisation so no, not everyone will fit into the boxes and i'd like people's opinion.

i don't know everyone's circumstances so it's based on a small sample of some of those i do know something about.

it could be completely wrong, it's just an idea.. basically, i have seen a difference between some of those ex-jws who walked out vs those who were kicked out.. the most bitter and obsessive seem to be the kicked out and, i must add, those who were legitimately kicked out.

hillary_step

Gerard,

Gerard: The kicked-outs I'm thinking of are those where there were good reasons to kick them out based on the rules in place.
HS:It seems to me that you are the ignorant one as you actually bolded the wrong section of the sentence and completely and utterly missed the point! Why you should do this evades me. Either you did not understand what was being said, or you chose not to understand, but the meaning is quite clear if you read the sentence with care.

Gerard replied:

Yes, Hillary, the WT rules set in place are absolutely perfect as they are, they are a pure and direct command from Jehovah and presented to us by his direct mediator, the WT. These rules to DF or not to, of course are implemented with heavenly perfection, without bias and we are all so gratefull for it.

I presume that the attempt in your latter statement at trying, without success I might add, to show that I agree with WTS 'rules' is to try and divert attention from the fact that you cannot read properly. You still have not seen to point.

Let me put it in simple terms that you MIGHT understand. This is NOTHING to do with WTS, or any other bodies rules being fair, just, or moral, they are to do with their right to remove a person who breaks their rules, as upheld by numerous courts of Law. If you join a club and break the rules, expect the consequences. If you join a club with unfair rules and you break the rules, expect the consequences. If you belong to a club whose rules are unfair, unjust, and immoral and you break the rules, expect the consequences. This is not rocket science man!

Do you get it now? I am amazed that some of you can find your mouths to brush your teeth.

HS

135

My theory about the behavior and obsession of some ex-JWs

by Simon in

jw
friends

i've had this theory for some time and alluded to it occassionally but have never explored it in detail.. it is of course a huge generalisation so no, not everyone will fit into the boxes and i'd like people's opinion.

i don't know everyone's circumstances so it's based on a small sample of some of those i do know something about.

it could be completely wrong, it's just an idea.. basically, i have seen a difference between some of those ex-jws who walked out vs those who were kicked out.. the most bitter and obsessive seem to be the kicked out and, i must add, those who were legitimately kicked out.

hillary_step

Bendrr,

I've already made two posts in this thread about how disfellowshipping is the punishment given for lack of repentance, and it is really more for a lack of repentance than for the "sin" itself.
So on an ex-JW forum, to make such a statement that some deserved to be disfellowshipped, that is going to generate some controversy. It isn't Simon's entire post, which I took for what he said it was, just the one small portion we have all been discussing. I'm not arguing with him or you; he himself said it was a sweeping generalization and a theory, just joining in with my own opinion for whatever it is worth.

Well, it might only sound controversial to an XJW, and that is because they might not quite get the point of what is being written.

What is being said is NOT that the reasons for these people being removed from the WTS are morally justified, good, or fair, but that the person was removed for not being able to abide by the rules of the religion. It is the same reasoning used by the Legal System in dealing with the shunning rule. Judges have have concluded, and stated in some cases, "silly reason to shun someone, but these are the rules and you knew those when you got baptized".

Where the WTS is concerned, it is certain that these rules are often applied prejudicially, unfairly and imperfectly, but they generally are only applied when rules are broken. Same as any website that has moderation that only reacts to broken rules of some sort or the other, and they may be equally insane as are many WTS rules. Rules may be applied prejudicially, unfairly and imperfectly, but unlike the WTS this would damage the emotions only of a person who is emotionally unstable to begin with and who is better off perhaps investing emotionally in other venues. After all, this is not life and death as 'Armaggedon' and 'Theocracy' was. This is just a discussion Board run by imperfect people, nothing more or less, and it has never pretended to be the way to eternal life. We are just one click away from getting out or getting in.

Perhaps too many XJW's are suffering under some illusion that there is a sort of XJW 'brotherhood', which is nonsense (all we have in common is that we were once JW's), and feel that somehow if they are taken to task on a discussion board it is like being castigated by the elders in a Kingdom Hall and if unsubscribed, that they feel 'shunned' again. I have seen this argued on numerous occasions on this Board.

If that is the case, they need to talk to a professional who can help them come to terms with this delusion. It is not realistic. If they are pained by this, they will find real life without the WTS panacea, very hard to live with.

Cheers - HS

135

My theory about the behavior and obsession of some ex-JWs

by Simon in

jw
friends

i've had this theory for some time and alluded to it occassionally but have never explored it in detail.. it is of course a huge generalisation so no, not everyone will fit into the boxes and i'd like people's opinion.

i don't know everyone's circumstances so it's based on a small sample of some of those i do know something about.

it could be completely wrong, it's just an idea.. basically, i have seen a difference between some of those ex-jws who walked out vs those who were kicked out.. the most bitter and obsessive seem to be the kicked out and, i must add, those who were legitimately kicked out.

hillary_step

Bendrr,

Pretty controversial statement, considering it could be taken to support the decision made by judicial committees to disfellowship people who are our fellow ex-JW's and friends.

How so?

HS

hillary_step

Posts by hillary_step