WT and LE,
Sorry to hear that.
Congratulations!
Hmmm
Posts by Hmmm
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45We Disassociated Ourselves Tonite!!!
by LyinEyes inlocal elder called tonite, with a witness on the phone to ask if it is true we were smoking ?
we said yes, and we know who told on us.
it was a ms who was at the club just last week with another woman, not his wife of course, while she was at the meeting.
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13
Let the dead bury their own dead
by Hmmm inmy (non-jw) grandmother is visiting from the southwest this week.
the usual family get-togethers are planned.
my ms younger brother was complaining to me about how unreasonable our (jw) mother is being.
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Hmmm
outoftheorg: (Why do I want to call you outoftheBorg?) What is so sad is that the WT doesn't openly teach us to be this way. They just cram so much of their crap into your day that it naturally squeezes other things out, and when you finally notice it, you think it's natural.
yrs: And I am glad that I was only a female in the organization and no one really epected me to reach out for anything.
I think females had it worse. They had to 'reach out' to pioneer, but got none of the power (such that it is)
That wedding story is one of the worst things I've ever heard! And people applauded that idiocy? Sheesh, and I thought it was silly when a brother and sister I knew went out in service together the morning of their wedding. What was the reaction of the elders to this? I was always told that the engagement was a solemn promise yadda yadda yadda. The coward probably just got cold feet and needed an "out".
Teejay:
Your brother reminds me of mine -- a man driven, bound and determined to make something of himself in an enterprise that's going out of business; among people that really won't give a rat's ass about him if he ever wavers. And in the process? He totally disregards blood relatives he'll probably never have the chance to see EVER again, people who love him and *will* love him, regardless of what he does in life. Weird.
You hit the nail on the head. I've been on both sides of that coin. I've forgotten all about people when their usefulness to Mother waned; and when I faded away, I got no calls or visits (which was not a bad thing)
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14
I have this friend who needs some advice...
by Hmmm ini have a friend named uhhh... timmm, who is in a bit of a quandary.
he has decided to go public with his apostate leanings, because it is becoming too hard to play the role of a meek, spiritually weak witness--complete with looks of pity and concern from his mother and siblings, and contempt from his sister-in-law.
timmm is sure one brother will have nothing to do with him after this, and he can live with that.
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Hmmm
Wow. Thanks for the responses. I must admit that Im a bit overwhelmed. It has taken me a while to respond because Ive actually had to do some work today.
Flip, outoftheorg, and dungbeetle: I think of the problems of the family as more external - just the situation in which they find themselves Im not sure theres even anything to get themselves out of. But I get your point: Sometimes we have to work on letting ourselves be more selfish.
Teejay:
But said sacrifice must hit the mark. It must not be wasted
Profound words, my man.
Timmm's parents have been nothing but loving and supportive of him his whole life (if you overlook the small matter of getting him mixed up in a crazy religion). There is no desire to win any moral victories over them. The only concern would be releasing his mother from the ever-tightening bonds of guilt placed upon her by the WT. Her relationship with Timmm's brother, Tommm (why is it that if you see one twin named Tim, the other will always be named Tom?) is fractured in large part because she towed the company line when he decided he didnt want to have anything to do with the truth. Enlightening her MIGHT help that relationship, but it would also cut her off from her parents and brothers, one of whom is a bethel elder.
Yrs2long: Thank you. Short answer to your questions: No. I have a rather diabolical idea of how Timmm could handle the situation should the worst-case scenario play out, but its best not divulged in public just in case his die-hard brother is lurking.
Minimus and Farkel: Excellent advice to take it slow and maybe look for a better opportunity. Farkel, I've read with horror your travails with your mother, and I appreciate you sharing your wisdom and experience.
Imbue: Good questions. It seems that the WT-induced guilt and family fracturing are the only difficulties his family suffers from, and theres no guarantee leaving would alleviate those.
Vivamus: Thanks for the kind offer. Timmm has been out for a number of years, but dealing with going public and the family issues is new to him. Its comforting to see that none of us is alone in dealing with these issues. Oh, and welcome to the board!
Outnfree: People often comment that Timmm and I are never seen together in the same place. The truth is, he just doesnt like to go out in public it stems from an unfortunate accident involving a corncob and a box of tacks. We dont discuss it.
Thanks for the input, everyone! Sometimes we know what we should do, but we need to bounce it off others who have been there.
Hmmm
Edited by - hmmm on 23 July 2002 17:2:42
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72
A loss of Life, A tribute to my nieces....
by Cassiline inthirteen years ago my nieces were murdered.
today is a hard day for me, remembering the phone call the shock and pain.
lives stolen in a moment.
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Hmmm
(((((Cass)))))
If I lost my nephews I'd be devastated
Hmmm
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6
Promotion
by Shutterbug ini just noticed that i am now a junior member.
i will probably be paid twice as much as i did as a newbie.
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Hmmm
They're paying you? My dues increased when I got promoted! I'll have to donate blood to pay for Jedi status.
Hmmm
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35
What "SIN" do elders respond to fastest?
by Dismembered in.
maybe it's just me but, it seem like "elders" respond extremely quickly to "sexual misconduct" as long as it does not involve their own family members.
true or false?
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Hmmm
Hmmmmm, on the whole they probably respond to sexual misconduct the fastest, but they pounce hardest on apostacy. You can cry and convince the elders you're repentant for fornication, but even a whiff of the big A is usually enough to get you the boot.
Hmmm
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13
Let the dead bury their own dead
by Hmmm inmy (non-jw) grandmother is visiting from the southwest this week.
the usual family get-togethers are planned.
my ms younger brother was complaining to me about how unreasonable our (jw) mother is being.
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Hmmm
Thanks for the replies, everyone.
I don't want to give the wrong impression. The reunion was this past weekend, and they at least made a guest appearance. I'm not even sure if they went to an earlier meeting or not.
Viv: I knew a sister who would also be reduced to tears at the thought of missing one meeting, and the guilt of wanting to do something else.
Jjrizo: Its nice to hear that you and your twin brother are close. My twin and I fought all the time growing up (and I have the scars to prove it.) We get along much better now, since I stopped treating him like the spawn of Satan for not wanting to go to the meetings.
BTW Your appeal transcript was one of the first JW things I read on the Net.
Larry: I also remember neglecting my family when I was reaching out. Ironically, now that Im doing more for my family, they can only focus on the fact that I dont go to the meetings.
Ugg: Im glad you had a group of elders that seemed halfway sane. So many elders would give the whole put first the kingdom spiel.
Jgnat: I hate to disagree, but I think your honeys case has less to do with putting the JWs first, and more about power equipment!
Blue: Its so important to make a good impression at a new congregation, to get in good with the elders and the right cliques. I cant fault him, though; I was the same way ten years ago.
Hmmm
Edited by - hmmm on 22 July 2002 19:55:54
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14
I have this friend who needs some advice...
by Hmmm ini have a friend named uhhh... timmm, who is in a bit of a quandary.
he has decided to go public with his apostate leanings, because it is becoming too hard to play the role of a meek, spiritually weak witness--complete with looks of pity and concern from his mother and siblings, and contempt from his sister-in-law.
timmm is sure one brother will have nothing to do with him after this, and he can live with that.
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Hmmm
I have a friend named uhhh... Timmm, who is in a bit of a quandary.
He has decided to go public with his apostate leanings, because it is becoming too hard to play the role of a meek, spiritually weak Witness--complete with looks of pity and concern from his mother and siblings, and contempt from his sister-in-law.
Timmm is sure one brother will have nothing to do with him after this, and he can live with that. Hes not positive what his mother and sisters will do. If they decide to shun him, it will make it very difficult for him to assist them, but he'll do what he has to [edit].
This is his dilemma: He doesnt know if he should try to get the rest of his family out. Hes a 3 rd generation dub, and wont even bother with extended family, but:
His father has been bed-ridden for the past few years with a degenerative debilitating disease. Because of his work schedule, Timmm's father never seemed all that strongly indoctrinated, but does his father look to the new system to heal him? Also, he seems to enjoy the occasional (every few months) visits from the brothers at the hall where Timmm's mother and sisters attend. These visits will probably peter off anyway, because Timmm's brother just moved from that hall, and they'll probably become one of those quiet familes that fall through the cracks. Would dad be crushed to learn that there is no panacea on the horizon? What else is there to offer him?
Timmm's father worked long hours on the midnight shift all during his childhood, so father and sons have never been all that close. Possibly because of that, the other two sons rarely visit. Timmm stops by to cut the grass and say a quick hello, but he's also busy trying to catch up on all the years he threw away on the Watchtower altar, and doesn't visit nearly as often as he should. Dad must be incredibly lonely, and Timmm worries that the disappointment of learning that the New System is not around the bend might push him over the edge into despair.
Timmm's sisters both have learning disabilities, and live at home with their parents. They are both extremely trusting, and have been taken advantage of by worldly people countless times. They're virtual prisoners in their own home. Their only social outlet is people at the hall. Yes, Witnesses can and do take advantage of people, too, but they do enjoy a measure of sheltering in the congregation that they need. What would happen to them if the family stopped attending?
Last but not least is Timmm's mother. She grew up in a dysfunctional Witness family and has deep emotional scars from her childhood. She also has a great burden taking care of a sick husband and two daughters. She has a lot of baggage that she carries around, and she feels that nobody understands her. Because of this, she has the worlds biggest persecution/martyr complex. She is not a strong woman on the outside, and takes anti-depressants (but shes far stronger than she'll ever realize). The problem is that Timmm and I can only see this problem getting worse as time goes on and the society keeps pushing the date of her relief back.
She has never been strong in the truth but has started attending more frequently in the past few years--ironically, she started going more as Timmm started going less. He suspects that much of her depression is a result of squelching doubts and disappointments of WT prophecies past, and he worries that her walls will come crumbling down around her if she loses all hope of a release from her present-day drudgery. Will she pack it in and leave all her responsibilities behind (she would have divorced years ago if it weren't forbidden) for a chance to live her own life in her twilight years? If so--and I think Timmm is a selfish bastard for even thinking this--will the responsibility fall an Timmm, as it always has, to take care of his father and sisters single-handedly?
Many people say that if you want to get loved ones out of this group, you have to give them something to take its place, but Timmm has nothing to offer. He wiped his theology slate clean years ago, and still has neither the time nor inclination to research and decide if he even believes in God (capitalized just in case), so he wouldn't feel comfortable offering a different religion or belief system as an alternative to the JWs. Because of their physical/mental/emotional handicaps, hobbies outside the home, beyond the bowling league that the women-folk belong to, are pretty much ruled out. His mother is too fragile even to come to this site!
This is so distressing to Timmm that its making his hair fall out! (At least thats the excuse he uses... I dont believe it.)
What do you guys think? Will he cause more harm than good if he tells his family the truth about the truth?
Hmmm
[edited because Word ate my formatting]
Edited by - hmmm on 23 July 2002 12:52:23
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13
Let the dead bury their own dead
by Hmmm inmy (non-jw) grandmother is visiting from the southwest this week.
the usual family get-togethers are planned.
my ms younger brother was complaining to me about how unreasonable our (jw) mother is being.
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Hmmm
My (non-JW) grandmother is visiting from the southwest this week. The usual family get-togethers are planned.
My MS younger brother was complaining to me about how unreasonable our (JW) mother is being. It seems she had the temerity to suggest to him that he should go to an earlier meeting on Sunday so he and his wife and newborn baby can visit with his grandmother. Sounds reasonable enough, doesn't it? However, they just changed congregations, and they missed the Sunday meeting their first week there, when the baby was born. They also went to an earlier meeting last week to have dinner with his wife's family.So he told me--knowing I haven't been to a meeting in years--that he didn't want to miss two of the first three Sunday meetings after moving to a new congregation, and that my mother was being unreasonable for not understanding.
My (JW) father is bed-ridden and his mother (my grandmother) is in ill health. I think she wanted to visit one last time before one of them dies. She came 2000 miles, probably for the last time, and my brother doesn't want to miss a Sunday meeting for a family reunion!
There's no sordid family dysfunction (at least not on that side of the family) to explain this. She's your typical sweet old grandmother. We visited out there about 15 years ago, and my younger brother liked a certain picture they had. When my grandfather died, grandma boxed the picture up and she brought it with her this year and gave it to my brother. She remembers all kinds of funny little stories of my father when he was growing up. I was talking to her yesterday and thinking about the knowledge and family history that will be lost when she passes.
This post isn't about heartless dubs. My brother is very sensitive and caring most of the time, and I must admit that if I were still the die-hard dub that he is, my take would have probably been the same as his. Like many JWs, he has a blind spot where his religion is concerned, and just can't see how unbalanced and unnatural his viewpoint is.
Hmmm
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26
Why am I here?
by larc insometimes i asked myself that question, and sometimes i really don't have an answer to my own question.
i faded from the religion back in 1962 with my dear wife.
there were few books and no internet.
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Hmmm
Larc,
I have a ton of respect for uh.... seasoned people, like you, who got out before the books by Penton, Franz, et al made it a no-brainer for people like myself, and before the Internet helped ex-JWs get in touch with each other for mutual support.
Hmmm