Posts by hooberus

60

The Evolution of Judas Iscariot

by Leolaia in

the story of judas iscariot in the gospels provides the reader with a fascinating picture of how the plot and details of the narratives were gleaned from the ot and embellished in different ways.

the evangelists and the tradents that preceded them looked to the ot (and other affiliated literature) for information on what happened to jesus, employing a haggadaic method of biblical interpretation similar to how rabbis and authors of pseudepigraphs in the second temple era expanded the brief stories of the patriarchs in genesis with reams of new detail and legendary episodes -- through the means of exegesis aimed to penetrate beyond a plain reading of the text to "fill in the blanks" of what must have happened.

the authors of the gospels also scoured through the ot to discover what was supposed to happen to jesus and wrote their stories accordingly.

hooberus

Threads like this (with the implication that the gospel accounts contain fiction/fraud) are simply too long for the relatively few believers (in the historicity of the Biblical accounts) that post here to at all reasonably respond to. In my opinion such lengthy "scholarly type" threads (almost always from a liberal prespective and presuppostional framework) would reallly be better posted (if opposing discussion/debate is desired) on more dedicated forums (theology web?) -wherein such material would be much more likely to be responded to by conservatives who have the time and background for such discussions. It may also be helpful on threads like this if any modern book sources for arguments being used (if any) were also listed.

That said the following offers some points regarding similar type arguments by others:

http://www.tektonics.org/gk/helmsr01.html

52

What happened between Jesus death & the gospels being written?

by yaddayadda in

hi, i'm interested in researching this subject.

can anyone recommend any good books that offer critical theories on the origins of early christianity, specifically the content and creation of the gospels.

for instance, how much of the gospels is underlying historical truth and how much might be exaggerations that crept in through, say 'chinese whispers' in the time between jesus death and the writing of the gospels ?

hooberus

There are also numerous resources and books from the conservative position as well.

http://www.tektonics.org/qm/qmhub.html

http://www.christian-thinktank.com

http://www.christian-thinktank.com/stil0108.html

44

The Global Flood and Antarctica - Can we have both?

by mavie in

jw
friends

a thought came to me this morning in the shower.

i was thinking about ice cores scientists have drilled in antarctica from which they can measure conditions that existed 650,000 years ago.

this got me thinking, how could antarctica have been around that long if the global flood as described in genesis really happened?

hooberus

Antyone who is truely interested in ice core and other chronological issue data from a biblical prespective may wish to consult the following (I no longer participate in origins discussions here):

http://www.csfpittsburgh.org/icc.htm

http://www.creationresearch.org/

http://www.icr.org/

http://www.answersingenesis.org

Books and arcticles by Michael Oard may be especially helpful on the ice core issue.

64

Do we have non-Biblical evidence that Jesus Christ existed?

by Inquisitor in

what non-biblical, historical evidence proves or supports the notion that jesus once existed as a living, breathing jewish man?

i'll start with the one that i used to swear by back when i was a good jw.

the roman historian suetonius (c. 69-140 c.e.

hooberus

http://www.religioustolerance.org/chr_jcno.htm

See the following regarding the claims in the "religious tolerance" arcticle about Mithras and Christianity.

http://tektonics.org/copycat/mithra.html

64

Do we have non-Biblical evidence that Jesus Christ existed?

by Inquisitor in

what non-biblical, historical evidence proves or supports the notion that jesus once existed as a living, breathing jewish man?

i'll start with the one that i used to swear by back when i was a good jw.

the roman historian suetonius (c. 69-140 c.e.

hooberus

As far as I know only a small minority of historians believe that Jesus never existed at all, most agree that He did exist though many of these doubt the crucifixion story calling it crucifiction.

I think that you will find that most historians do not doubt the crucifixion. For example the Encyclopedia Brittanica Micropaedia Vol. 3 p.762 states (with no qualifications): "in about AD 32 Pontius Pilate had Jesus of Nazareth put to death by crucifixion." see also my previous link on this thread for several ancient references to the crucifixion.

64

Do we have non-Biblical evidence that Jesus Christ existed?

by Inquisitor in

what non-biblical, historical evidence proves or supports the notion that jesus once existed as a living, breathing jewish man?

i'll start with the one that i used to swear by back when i was a good jw.

the roman historian suetonius (c. 69-140 c.e.

hooberus

Just fine Gumby.

Here is a link to my previous thread giving additional historical references specifically for the crucifixion under Pilate.

http://www.jehovahs-witness.com/10/63458/1.ashx

64

Do we have non-Biblical evidence that Jesus Christ existed?

by Inquisitor in

what non-biblical, historical evidence proves or supports the notion that jesus once existed as a living, breathing jewish man?

i'll start with the one that i used to swear by back when i was a good jw.

the roman historian suetonius (c. 69-140 c.e.

hooberus

Just fine Gumby.

Here is a link to my previous thread giving additional historical references specifically for the crucifixion under Pilate.

http://www.jehovahs-witness.com/10/63458/1.ashx

64

Do we have non-Biblical evidence that Jesus Christ existed?

by Inquisitor in

what non-biblical, historical evidence proves or supports the notion that jesus once existed as a living, breathing jewish man?

i'll start with the one that i used to swear by back when i was a good jw.

the roman historian suetonius (c. 69-140 c.e.

hooberus

http://www.tektonics.org/jesusexist/jesusexisthub.html

Highly reliable sources. There are two of these: Tacitus and Josephus.
Moderately reliable sources. We find three: Thallus, Pliny, and Lucian. For the matter of Thallus, please see also our link in our essay to Glenn Miller's essay on that subject, linked in our essay. (We will look at some objections to the Thallus cite.)
Marginally reliable or unreliable sources. Three are in this class: Suetonius, the letter of Mara Bar-Serapion, and the Talmud.

19

Flood Legends

by Inquisitor in

the account of noah's flood has had its credibility beaten black and blue by current understanding of ancient history, geology and biology.

yet staunch christians, including jws, continue to assert that the existence of the many flood legends from all over the world proves that a global catastrophe must have occurred.

how would you respond to this line of reasoning specifically?

hooberus

20

Does God Work Through an Organization?

by Confession in

in other posts i've commented on how profoundly tom cabeen's essay, "does god work through an organization," affected me when i read it on september 15th, 2004. somehow realizing that the scriptures do not actually teach this helped me to see that the watchtower society was not what it claimed to be.

read it here if you like... http://www.brci.org/attachments/org.pdf.

that said, i intend to share this information (where i can) with those current jws who'll let me.

hooberus

One very difficult argument that I haven’t yet overcome is that if you believe (as JWs do) that a worldwide preaching work needs to be undertaken , then how is it possible to do this without any form of structure or organised body? Any argument that God didn’t use a similar organisation in the past is irrelevant as no similar work on such a scale has been undertaken in the past (as Tom Cabeen acknowledges).

The issuse is not whether "any form" of "structure or organized body" is required, but whether a formal earthly, "visible organization" led hierarchically by a central "governing body" is stipulated or required. The Holy Spirit unites all believers worldwide into an living organism regardless of formal organizational memberships.

The bible instructions to meet together , to speak in unity , to have “love among yourselves” , appoint elders and others in positions of direction and , above all , the command to preach would seem to strongly infer , indeed demand , an administrative structure.

Christians have always met together with or without formal organizations. Indeed Jesus said: "For where two or three are gathered together in my name, there am I in the midst of them." Matthew 18:20

To "speak in unity" requires being led of the Spirit and the scriptures not a formal organization. However to speak in uniformity (a WT requirement) does require a formal organization, thus they emphasis it.

There is no requirement for a WT like organization with its "administrative structure" in order for for Christian believers to have "love among yourselves". I personally am friends and love other believers who attend other Christain denominations or fellowships, and yet our bond is one of love in the Spirit. What kind of true love requires an "administrative structure" to be in effect?

The apoinment of elders in Acts 14 was done by Paul and Barnabus without any specific formal consulatation of a central organized body.

The command to preach was given by Jesus to all Christians, as well as the Holy Spirit and needs no single administrative structure. Indeed Paul took pains to state that he did not confer with "flesh and blood" nor go "up to Jerusalem" to the other apostles before commensing his preaching work.

Galatians Chapter 1

15: But when it pleased God, who separated me from my mother's womb, and called me by his grace,
16: To reveal his Son in me, that I might preach him among the heathen; immediately I conferred not with flesh and blood:
17: Neither went I up to Jerusalem to them which were apostles before me; but I went into Arabia, and returned again unto Damascus.