Posts by hooberus

23

How Can You Easily Show That JW's Are Wrong?

by minimus in

jw
friends

it seems that it's very difficult to convince the average witness that their beliefs are incorrect.nearly all will not admit or simply cannot see the error of their ways.how would you help a jehovah's witness see the light?

hooberus

Thanks for the post AGuest

108

Why is the Bible wrong?

by StinkyPantz in

this primarily goes out to other agnostics and athiests.

this week i got into two interesting conversations that i will admit that i was ill prepared for.

one was with a jw friend of mine who wanted to know why i thought jw's were wrong.

hooberus

Thanks for the info seedy. For now though I am primarily interested in the direct "pagan" or other source accounts for which we have the actual accounts, ie: Gilgamesh, Enuma Elish, etc. Are there any other direct translations of any other accounts which have been proposed as sources for the OT?

9

Governing Body

by hooberus in

special thanks to gopher for the use of his wt cd rom, saving me alot of typing.

i have edited and combined my posts here.

governing body.

hooberus

The WT Society has also stated on more than one occasion that the Governing Body can contine to function on its own without the legal corporations of the watchtower! So the dissenting directors since they formed a majority of the board (hense also a majority of the Governing Body) were the ones whom Jehovah would have been using as a Governing Body. Thus logically the WT Society was no longer God's Organization from 1917 onward!!!!!!!

9

Governing Body

by hooberus in

special thanks to gopher for the use of his wt cd rom, saving me alot of typing.

i have edited and combined my posts here.

governing body.

hooberus

Edited by - hooberus on 7 February 2003 15:14:31

108

Why is the Bible wrong?

by StinkyPantz in

this primarily goes out to other agnostics and athiests.

this week i got into two interesting conversations that i will admit that i was ill prepared for.

one was with a jw friend of mine who wanted to know why i thought jw's were wrong.

hooberus

Here is a summary of "Tablet 1"

Tablet I

The stage is set for the story. The various gods represent aspects of the physical world. Apsu is the god of fresh water and thus male fertility. Tiamat, wife of Apsu, is the goddess of the sea and thus chaos and threat. Tiamat gives birth to Anshar and Kishar, gods who represented the boundary between the earth and sky (the horizon). To Anshar and Kishar is born Anu, god of sky, who in turn bears Ea. These "sons of the gods" make so much commotion and are so ill-behaved that Apsu decides to destroy them. When Ea learns of the plan, he kills Apsu and with his wife Damkina establishes their dwelling above his body. Damkina then gives birth to Marduk, the god of spring symbolized both by the light of the sun and the lightning in storm and rain. He was also the patron god of the city of Babylon. Meanwhile Tiamat is enraged at the murder of her husband Apsu, and vows revenge. She creates eleven monsters to help her carry out her vengeance. Tiamat takes a new husband, Kingu, in place of the slain Apsu and puts him in charge of her newly assembled army.

Besides the "Gilgamesh" and "Enuma Elish" accounts are there any other proposed accounts for the origin of the biblical ones?

Edited by - hooberus on 6 February 2003 19:33:37

108

Why is the Bible wrong?

by StinkyPantz in

this primarily goes out to other agnostics and athiests.

this week i got into two interesting conversations that i will admit that i was ill prepared for.

one was with a jw friend of mine who wanted to know why i thought jw's were wrong.

hooberus

Here is "Tablet 1" of the seven "tablets" Are most of the similarities that Alan gave (in his arcticle) just Tablet 1 or do we need the other tablets also?

When on high the heaven had not been named,
Firm ground below had not been called by name,
When primordial Apsu, their begetter,
And Mummu-Tiamat, she who bore them all,
Their waters mingled as a single body,
No reed hut had sprung forth, no marshland had appeared,
None of the gods had been brought into being,
And none bore a name, and no destinies determined--
Then it was that the gods were formed in the midst of heaven.
Lahmu and Lahamu were brought forth, by name they were called. (10)

Before they had grown in age and stature,
Anshar and Kishar were formed, surpassing the others.
Long were the days, then there came forth.....
Anu was their heir, of his fathers the rival;
Yes, Anshar's first-born, Anu, was his equal.
Anu begot in his image Nudimmud.
This Nudimmud was of his fathers the master;
Of broad wisdom, understanding, mighty in strength,
Mightier by far than his grandfather, Anshar.
He had no rival among the gods, his brothers. (20)

Thus were established and were... the great gods.
They disturbed Tiamat as they surged back and forth,
Yes, they troubled the mood of Tiamat
By their hilarity in the Abode of Heaven.
Apsu could not lessen their clamor
And Tiamat was speechless at their ways.
Their doings were loathsome unto . . . .
Thier way was evil; they were overbearing.
Then Apsu, the begetter of the great gods,
Cried out, addressing Mummu, his minister: (30)

"O Mummu, my vizier, who rejoices my spirit,
Come here and let us go to Tiamat!"
They went and sat down before Tiamat,
Exchanging counsel about the gods, their first-born.
Apsu, opening his mouth,
Said to resplendent Tiamat:
"Their ways are truly loathsome to me.
By day I find no relief, nor repose by night.
I will destroy, I will wreck their ways,
That quiet may be restored. Let us have rest!" (40)

As soon as Tiamat heard this,
She was furious and called out to her husband.
She cried out aggrieved, as she raged all alone,
She uttered a curse, and unto Apsu she spoke:
"What? Should we destroy that which we have built?
Their ways indeed are most troublesome, but let us attend kindly!"
Then Mummu answered, giving counsel to Apsu;
Ill-wishing and ungracious was Mummu's advice:
"Do destroy, my father, the mutinous ways.
Then you will have relief by day and rest by night!" (50)

When Apsu heard this, his face grew radiant
Because of the evil he planned against the gods, his sons.
As for Mummu, he embraced him by the neck
As that one sat down on his knees to kiss him.
Now whatever they had plotted between them,
Was repeated unto the gods, their first-born.
When the gods heard this, they were astir,
Then lapsed into silence and remained speechless.
Surpassing in wisdom, accomplished, resourceful,
Ea, the all-wise, saw through their scheme. (60)

A master design against it he devised and set up,
Made artful his spell against it, surpassing and holy.
He recited it and made it subsist in the deep,
As he poured sleep upon him. Sound asleep he lay.
When he had made Apsu prone, drenched with sleep,
Mummu, the adviser, was powerless to stir.
He loosened his band, tore off his tiara,
Removed his halo and put it on himself.
Having fettered Apsu, he slew him.
Mummu he bound and left behind lock. (70)

Having thus established his dwelling upon Apsu,
He laid hold of Mummu, holding him by the nose-rope.
After Ea had vanquished and trodden down his foes,
Had secured his triumph over his enemies,
In his sacred chamber in profound peace had rested,
He named it "Apsu," for shrines he assigned it.
In that same place his cult hut he founded.
Ea and Damkina, his wife, dwelled there in splendor.

[The Birth of Marduk]In the chamber of fates, the abode of destinies,
A god was engendered, most able and wisest of gods. (80)

In the heart of Apsu was Marduk created,
In the heart of holy Apsu was Marduk created.
He who begot him was Ea, his father;
She who bore him was Damkina, his mother.
The breast of goddesses he did suck.
The nurse that nursed him filled him with awesomeness.
Alluring was his figure, sparkling the lift of his eyes.
Lordly was his gait, commanding from of old.
When Ea saw him, the father who begot him,
He exulted and glowed, his heart filled with gladness. (90)

He rendered him perfect and endowed him with a double godhead.
Greatly exalted was he above them, exceeding throughout.
Perfect were his members beyond comprehension,
Unsuited for understanding, difficult to perceive.
Four were his eyes, four were his ears;
When he moved his lips, fire blazed forth.
Large were all four hearing organs,
And the eyes, in like number, scanned all things.
He was the loftiest of the gods, surpassing was his stature;
His members were enormous, he was exceeding tall. (100)

"My little son, my little son!"
My son, the Sun! Sun of the heavens!"
Clothed with the halo of ten gods, he was strong to the utmost,
As their awesome flashes were heaped upon him.
Anu brought forth and begot the fourfold wind
Consigning to its power the leader of the host.
He fashioned . . . , stationed the whirlwind,
He produced streams to disturb Tiamat.
The gods, given no rest, suffer in the storm.
Their hearts having plotted evil, (110)

To Tiamat, their mother, said:
"When they slew Apsu, your consort,
You did not aid him but remained still.
When he created the dread fourfold wind,
Your vitals were diluted and so we can have no rest.
Let Apsu, your consort, be in your mind
And Mummu, who has been vanquished! You are left alone!
. . . you pace about distraught,
. . . without cease. You do not love us!
. . . our eyes are pinched, (120)

. . . without cease. Let us have rest!
. . . to battle. Avenge them!
. . . and render them as the wind!"
When Tiamat heard these words, she was pleased:
" . . . you have given. Let us make monsters,
. . . and the gods in the midst . . . .
. . . let us do battle and against the gods . . . !"
They banded themselves together and marched at the side of Tiamat.
Enraged, they plot without cease night and day,
They are set for combat, growling, raging, (130)

They form a council to prepare for the fight.
Mother Hubur, she who fashions all things,
Added matchless weapons, bore monster-serpents,
Sharp of tooth, unsparing of fang.
With venom for blood she has filled their bodies.
Roaring dragons she has clothed with terror,
Has crowned them with haloes, making them like gods,
Whoever beheld them, terror overcame him,
And that, with their bodies reared up, none might turn them back.
She set up the Viper, the Dragon, and the monster Lahamu, (140)

The Great-Lion, the Mad-Dog, and the Scorpion-Man,
Mighty lion-demons, the Dragon-Fly, the Centaur--
Bearing weapons that do not spare, fearless in battle.
Her decrees were firm, they were beyond resisting.
All together eleven of this kind she brought forth.
From among the gods, her first-born, who formed her Assembly,
She elevated Kingu, made him chief among them.
The leading of the ranks, command of the Assembly,
The raising of weapons for the encounter, advancing to combat,
To direct the battle, to control the fight, (150)

These she entrusted to his hand as she seated him in the Council:
"I have cast for you the spell, exalting you in the Assembly of the gods.
To counsel all the gods I have given you full power.
Truly, you are supreme, you are my only consort!
Your utterance shall prevail over all the Anunnaki!"
She gave him the Tablet of Destinies, fastened on his breast:
"As for you, your command shall be unchangeable, your word shall endure!"
As soon as Kingu was elevated, possessed of the rank of Anu,
they decreed the fate for the gods, his sons:
"Your word shall make the first subside, (160)

Shall humble the `Power-Weapon,' so potent in its sweep!"

Edited by - hooberus on 6 February 2003 19:34:16

Edited by - hooberus on 6 February 2003 19:46:30

9

Governing Body

by hooberus in

special thanks to gopher for the use of his wt cd rom, saving me alot of typing.

i have edited and combined my posts here.

governing body.

hooberus

If someone could use their WT CD and cut and paste the following pages I have some additional comments on the majority of the Governing Body being "kicked out" of the WT Society in 1917.

Watchtower March 15, 1990 p. 17-18

Proclaimers 1993 p. 65-68

If these complete pages could be posted here it would help. Thanks

108

Why is the Bible wrong?

by StinkyPantz in

this primarily goes out to other agnostics and athiests.

this week i got into two interesting conversations that i will admit that i was ill prepared for.

one was with a jw friend of mine who wanted to know why i thought jw's were wrong.

hooberus

peaceful pete said:

"The legends of old were fragmentary and short. In fact the Scolars who study writings from the time that the oldest parts of the Bible were supposedly written find no other lenghty narrative type literature in any culture. This is indirect evidence that the books were formed later utilizing perhaps much older material from poem and song. This means then that finding a 4000 year old book from pagan sources is not possible. We must utilize reference works that reprint the short often framentary pieces that have survived."

peaceful, what other fragmentary and short pieces are also (besides Gilgamesh) proposed for being sources for the OT? Isn't there also an "Adam" story? While I am sure that these are discussed more fully in the books which you recommended, I'd like to see a translation of these fragments posted directly (like the previous "Gilgamesh" post.)

I would appreciate it if someone could post a translation of these other proposed sources for some of the accounts of the OT.

Edited by - hooberus on 6 February 2003 18:44:26

108

Why is the Bible wrong?

by StinkyPantz in

this primarily goes out to other agnostics and athiests.

this week i got into two interesting conversations that i will admit that i was ill prepared for.

one was with a jw friend of mine who wanted to know why i thought jw's were wrong.

hooberus

Is this a complete translation of the flood account or is it abreviated?

MYTHS OF THE FLOOD

THE FLOOD NARRATIVE FROM THE GILGAMESH EPIC

Gilgamesh has made a long and difficult journey to learn how Utnapishtim acquired eternal life. In answer to his questions, Utnapishtim tells the following story. Once upon a time, the gods destroyed the ancient city of Shuruppah in a great flood. But Utnapishtim, forewarned by Ea, managed to survive by building a great ship. His immortality was a gift bestowed by the repentant gods in recognition of his ingenuity and his faithfulness in reinstituting the sacrifice.

Shurippak -a city which thou knowest,

(And) which on Euphrates' banks is set-

That city was ancient, (as were) the gods within it,

When their heart led the great gods to produce the flood.

There were Anu, their father,

Valiant Enlil, their counselor,

Ninurta, their herald,

Ennuge, their irrigator.

Ninigiku-Ea was also present with them;

Their words he repeats to the reed-hut:1

'Reed-hut, reed-hut! Wall! Wall!

Reed-hut, hearken! Wall, reflect!

Man of Shuruppak, 2 son of Ubar-Tutu,

Tear down (this) house, build a ship!

Give up possessions, seek thou life.

Despise property and keep the soul alive.

Aboard the ship take thou the seed of all living things.

The ship that thou shalt build,

Her dimensions shall be to measure.

Equal shall be her width and her length.

Like the Apsu 3 thou shalt ceil her.'

I understood, and I said to Ea, my lord:

'Behold, my lord, what thou hast thus ordered,

I shall be honoured to carry out.

But what shall I answer the city, the people and elders?'

Ea opened his mouth to speak,

Saying to me, his servant:

'Thou shalt then thus speak unto them:

"I have learned that Enlil is hostile to me,

So that I cannot reside in your city,

Nor set my foot in Enlil's territory.

To the Deep I will therefore go down,

To dwell with my lord Ea.

But upon you he will shower down abundance,

The choicest birds, the rarest fishes.

The land shall have its fill of harvest riches.

He who at dusk orders the hush-greens,

Will shower down upon you a rain of wheat.4

With the first glow of dawn,

The land was gathered about me.

(too fragmentary for translation]

The little ones carried bitumen,

While the grown ones brought all else that was needful.

On the fifth day I laid her framework.

One (whole) acre was her floor space,

Ten dozen cubits the height of each of her walls,

Ten dozen cubits each edge of the square deck.

I laid out the shape of her sides and joined her together.

I provided her with six decks,

Dividing her (thus) into seven parts.

Her floor plan I divided into nine parts.

I hammered water-plugs into her.

I saw to the punting-poles and laid in supplies.

Six 'sar' (measures), 5 of bitumen I poured into the furnace,

Three sar of asphalt I also poured inside.

Three sar of the basket-bearers transferred,

Aside from the one sar of oil which the calking consumed,

And the two sar of oil which the boatman stowed away.

Bullocks I slaughtered for the people,

And I killed sheep every day.

Must, red wine, oil, and white wine

I gave the workmen to drink, as though river water,

That they might feast as on New Year's Day. . . .

On the seventh day the ship was completed.

The launching was very difficult,

So that they had to shift the floor planks above and below,

Until two-thirds of the structure had gone into the water.

Whatever I had I laded upon her.

Whatever I had of silver I laded upon her,

Whatever I had of gold I laded upon her,

Whatever I had of all the living beings I laded upon her.

All my family and kin I made go aboard the ship.

The beasts of the field, the wild creatures of the field,

All the craftsmen I made go aboard.

Shamash had set for me a stated time:

'When he who orders unease at night

Will shower down a rain of blight,

Board thou the ship and batten up the gate!'

That stated time had arrived:

'He who orders unease at night showers down a rain of blight.'

I watched the appearance of the weather.

The weather was awesome to behold.

I boarded the ship and battened up the gate.

To batten up the (whole) ship, to Puzar-Amurri, the boatman,

I handed over the structure together with its contents.

With the first glow of dawn,

A black cloud rose up from the horizon.

Inside it Adad 6 thunders,

While Shallat and Hanish 7 go in front,

Moving as heralds over hill and plain.

Erragal 8 tears out the posts; 9

Forth comes Ninurta and causes the dikes to follow.

The Anunnaki lift up the torches,

Setting the land ablaze with their glare.

Consternation over Adad reaches to the heavens,

Turning to blackness all that had been light.

The wide land was shattered like a pot!

For one day the south-storm blew,

Gathering speed as it blew, submerging the mountains,

Overtaking the people like a battle.

No one can see his fellow,

Nor can the people be recognized from heaven.

The gods were frightened by the deluge,

And, shrinking back, they ascended to the heaven of Anu.

The gods cowered like dogs

Crouched against the outer wall.

Ishtar cried out like a woman in travail,

The sweet-voiced mistress of the gods moans aloud:

'The olden days are alas turned to clay,

Because I bespoke evil in the Assembly of the gods,

How could I bespeak evil in the Assembly of the gods,

Ordering battle for the destruction of my people,

When it is I myself who give birth to my people!

Like the spawn of the fishes they fill the sea!'

The Anunnaki gods weep with her,

The gods, all humbled, sit and weep,

Their lips drawn tight. . . . one and all.

Six days and six nights

Blows the flood wind, as the south-storm sweeps the land.

When the seventh day arrived,

The flood (-carrying) south-storm subsided in the battle,

Which it had fought like an army.

The sea-grew quiet, the tempest was still, the flood ceased.

I looked at the weather. stillness had set in,

And all of mankind had returned to clay.

The landscape was as level as a flat roof.

I opened a hatch, and light fell on my face.

Bowing low, I sat and wept,

Tears running down my face.

I looked about for coast lines in the expanse of the sea:

In each of fourteen (regions)

There emerged a region (-mountain).

On Mount Nisir the ship came to a halt.

Mount Nisir held the ship fast,

Allowing -no motion.

..........................................

[For six days the ship is held fast by Mount Nisir.]

When the seventh day arrived,

I sent forth and set free a dove.

The dove went forth, but came back;

There was no resting-place for it and she turned round.

Then I sent forth and set free a swallow.

The swallow went forth, but came back,

There was no resting-place for it and she turned round.

Then I sent forth and set free a raven.

The raven went forth and, seeing that the waters had diminished,
He eats, circles, caws, and turns not round.

Then I let out (all) to the four winds

And offered a sacrifice.

I poured out a libation on the top of the mountain.

Seven and seven cult-vessels I set up,
Upon their plate-stands I heaped cane, cedarwood, and myrtle.

The gods smelled the savour,

The gods smelled the sweet savour,
The gods crowded like flies about the sacrificer.

As soon as the great goddess 10 arrived,

She lifted up the great jewels which Anu had fashioned to her liking:

'Ye gods here, as surely as this lapis

Upon my neck I shall -not forget,

I shall be mindful of these days, forgetting (them) never.

Let the gods come to the offering:

(But) let not Enlil come to the offering,
For he, unreasoning, brought on the deluge
And my people consigned to destruction.'
As soon as Enlil arrived,
And saw the ship, Enlil was wroth,
He was filled with wrath against the Igigi gods: 11

'Has some living soul escaped?

No man was to survive the destruction!'

Ninurta opened his mouth to speak,

Saying to valiant Enlil:

'Who other than Ea can devise plans?

It is Ea alone who knows every matter.'

Ea opened his mouth to speak,

Saying to valiant Enlil:

'Thou wisest of the gods, thou hero,

How couldst thou, unreasoning, bring on the deluge?

On the sinner impose his sin,

On the transgressor impose his transgression!

(Yet) be lenient, lest he be cut off, Be patient,

lest he be dislodged

Instead of thy bringing on the deluge,

Would that a lion had risen up to diminish mankind!

Instead of thy brining on the deluge,

Would that a wolf had risen up to diminish mankind!

Instead of thy bringing on the deluge,

Would that a famine had risen up to lay low mankind!

Instead of thy bringing on the deluge,

Would that pestilence had risen up to smite down mankind!

It was not I who disclosed the secret of the great gods.

I let Atrahasis 12 see a dream,

And he perceived the secret of the gods.

Now then take counsel in regard to him!'

Thereupon Enlil went aboard the ship.

Holding me by the hand, he took me aboard.

He took my wife aboard and made (her) kneel by my side.

Standing between us, he touched our foreheads to bless us:

'Hitherto Utnapishtim has been but human.

Henceforth Utnapishtim and his wife shall be like unto us gods.

Utnapishtim shall reside far away, at the mouth of the rivers!'

Thus they took me and made me reside far away,

At the mouth of the rivers.

Notes

1 Probably the dwelling of Utnapishtim. The god Ea addresses him (through the barrier of the wall), telling him about the decision of the gods to bring on a flood and advising him to build a ship.

2 Utnapishtim.

3 The subterranean waters.

4 The purpose is to deceive the inhabitants of Shuruppak as to the real intent of the rain.

5 . A 'sar' is about 8,000 gallons.

6 God of storm and rain.

7 Heralds of Adad.

8 I.e., Nergal, the god of the nether world.

9 Of the world dam.

10 Ishtar.

12 'Exceeding wise,' an epithet of Utnapishtim.

Translation by E. A. Speiser, in Ancient Near Eastern Texts (Princeton, 1950), pp. 60-72, as reprinted in Isaac Mendelsohn (ed.), Religions of the Ancient Near East, Library of Religion paperbook series (New York, 1955). PP. 100-6; notes by Mendelsohn

Edited by - hooberus on 6 February 2003 18:27:39

108

Why is the Bible wrong?

by StinkyPantz in

this primarily goes out to other agnostics and athiests.

this week i got into two interesting conversations that i will admit that i was ill prepared for.

one was with a jw friend of mine who wanted to know why i thought jw's were wrong.

hooberus

Xander, I use a public library for the internet so my time is limited. The site given seems to me to be primarily new testament origins. I would prefer to start with the OT "pagan" accounts first then move on to the NT.

I also an primarily interested in the direct accounts themselves before going on to a discussion and interpretation of the accounts.

Edited by - hooberus on 6 February 2003 14:36:31