Posts by Slappy

97

Convictions or Reasons - which come first?

by nicolaou in

it's obvious right?

your convictions are supported by and dependant upon your reasoning and evidence.

what kind of person would choose a conviction first and then hunt around for evidence to support it, all the time ignoring any sound refutation and evidence which countered their cherished belief?.

Slappy

As usual, normal debate has proven impossible thanks to the power of the Bible.
That bloody book has done more damage to humanity than any other.

Oh...? I was under the impression that we have done that to one another. Are you for gun control? Afterall, it's the guns that are causing so many deaths and problems. If we get rid of the guns then there will be less problems. Isn't this the reasoning used? Of course, it has nothing to do with the person pulling the trigger, because the gun is to blame. For without the gun, the person wouldn't have had a trigger to pull. This is all about people not wanting to take responsibility and constantly looking for ways to blame the faults of the world on something else.

Why is it that you cannot accept our reasonings, but we can accept yours? You use one type of base (your 5 senses essentially) and we use another base (the Word of God). It's not that normal debate isn't possible, it's that you are only want to debate with what you understand. You don't want to go outside your comfort zone. How can we grow as an individual if we don't go outside our comfort zones?

That being said, your statement is correct. And I know you're going to love this...because the Bible agrees with you. Don't you just hate when that happens? Have a look:

Suppose ye that I am come to give peace on earth? I tell you, Nay; but rather division: For from henceforth there shall be five in one house divided, three against two, and two against three. The father shall be divided against the son, and the son against the father; the mother against the daughter, and the daughter against the mother; the mother in law against her daughter in law, and the daughter in law against her mother in law. Luke 12:51-53

So, you're absolutely right!!!

63

You know, I've yet to meet a JW who can explain this

by Lady Zombie in

i know that has probably been covered ad infinitum on jwd.

so...... if jehovah is omnipotent, then there is nothing he can't do and nothing he doesn't know.. and, according to jws (as well as most other religions), god is love.

therefore he had to have known, even before creating all of creation, what would happen.

Slappy

Good points Awakened. Thanks for the clarification on those things you mentioned. However, I guess I'm getting the impression that since the JW beliefs and interpretations of the Bible have proven to be false, there are those that have immediately jumped to the conclusion that the Bible as a whole is false. It may be that I'm making too broad/hasty of a generalization, and I apologize for that. I just don't want people to assume that since a certain "religious take" on the Bible turns out to be false, that the Bible itself is false.

If God knows what will happen thousands of years in advance (hence prophecy), that means our actions are predestined. And since we're not the ones predestining them (we don't have that kind of power), someone else would be the one... Who might that be?
Not that I believe God is doing it; this is not an attack on God, but the concept of (a certain) God

I'm sorry, I guess I don't see how God knowing the future means that our actions/lives are already predestined (aka. chosen for us). Just because we have free-will, that doesn't necessarily mean that there are an infinite number of possibilities that only become available when we reach that particular point in time. (Ouch, my head hurts now...I'll try a different angle. )

Is God outside time? I think so. There are 3-4 different references in Revelation where God states that He is Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end. Also, look at Revelation 10:6

And sware by him that liveth for ever and ever, who created heaven, and the things that therein are, and the earth, and the things that therein are, and the sea, and the things which are therein, that there should be time no longer

If God has the power to "begin" and "end" time, can we not assume that He is above and beyond the reach of time? It seems to me that to have power over something gives one the ability to change something according to one's will. I would give an example, but I think it's pretty straight-forward. Continuing on, if God has the power to change time, we can assume that He is outside time. And since He is outside time, time, as we know it, doesn't truly exist for God. As a result He can see everything, from the beginning to end. This is how He knows everything that is going to happen. He is at the end of time looking back; He is also at the beginning--He is all encompassing. So instead of seeing the limitless choices we can make with our free-will, He only sees the choices that we ended up making.

This is an incredibly hard concept to grasp, because everything we know or do is based on time. Time is how we live, without it we are lost. So trying to comprehend things without the passing of time is difficult in the extreme. This is the conclusion that I came to when studying the thought of predestination (which didn't sit well with me because the thought of a God that picked who would be saved and who wouldn't be saved didn't sit well with my perception of God as I have gleaned from His Word). Also another reason I didn't like the idea of predestination is because there were those who felt that since God had "picked" them, they were somehow better than everybody else. That, in my opinion, is not the Spirit that Christ would have us to have.

63

You know, I've yet to meet a JW who can explain this

by Lady Zombie in

i know that has probably been covered ad infinitum on jwd.

so...... if jehovah is omnipotent, then there is nothing he can't do and nothing he doesn't know.. and, according to jws (as well as most other religions), god is love.

therefore he had to have known, even before creating all of creation, what would happen.

Slappy

The logic is there, but again, I think it's flawed. Your first two examples, about hunger and cold, are instincts, and even animals have them. Can you group the need to worship God in with those? I think not, they're too different. Also, if we were "hardwired" as you say, to worship God, then what do we need His Word for? However, if we aren't "hardwired" (which we're obviously not) then there is a need for God's Word to teach us and bring us to Him. So you are right, we do need to be taught about God. Is that a bad thing? We also need to be taught math, reading, science, geography, etc..., in order for us to succeed and survive in this life. Saying that we are all born atheists is one way to say that. Of course, we're also all born bereft of coherent speech or much of anything else for that matter, so are we also born dumb?

Back to the free-will issue...If God had "hardwired" this need to worship Him, then I don't think we could come to Him of our own free-will. However, as has been mentioned several times, the free-will issue is a difficult one at best. There are people from my non-denominational background that believe one way and some another way. It's all how one applies God's Word to their reasoning. It is a very controversial topic in some circles, and has led to more divisions than I care to reflect upon.

Not to harp on this, but this is the reason why I urge people to not just read the Bible, but to study it. It's not like you're going to find a verse that says exactly the way things are, just like you can't form a complete opinion of somebody after you've been with them for a few minutes. True understanding can only come with time and dedicating yourself to whatever it is, it's that way with everything. So one has to study the entire Bible to get an accurate picture of God and His plans for us. Can one read through a textbook on mechanical engineering (not sure why that, i'm an accountant, but whatever ) twice and claim that you know all there is to know about mechanical engineering? If so, then one is far beyond me.

97

Convictions or Reasons - which come first?

by nicolaou in

it's obvious right?

your convictions are supported by and dependant upon your reasoning and evidence.

what kind of person would choose a conviction first and then hunt around for evidence to support it, all the time ignoring any sound refutation and evidence which countered their cherished belief?.

Slappy

What John? You don't understand meekness and humility? Or how incredibly hard it is for me to behave in such way? Or why I would even want to behave in such a way?

What is it exactly that made me lose credibility? Your post is incredibly ambiguous. This isn't one of those "I don't understand it so I'll bash it" things is it? Those wear out rather quick.

If it be possible, as much as lieth in you, live peaceably with all men. Romans 12:18

Let us therefore follow after the things which make for peace, and things wherewith one may edify another. Romans 14:19

Now I Paul myself beseech you by the meekness and gentleness of Christ, who in presence [am] base among you, but being absent am bold toward you... 2 Corinthians 10:1

97

Convictions or Reasons - which come first?

by nicolaou in

it's obvious right?

your convictions are supported by and dependant upon your reasoning and evidence.

what kind of person would choose a conviction first and then hunt around for evidence to support it, all the time ignoring any sound refutation and evidence which countered their cherished belief?.

Slappy

Snowbird, I really didn't want to do it, and I know that I probably shouldn't have responded as I did for that is not how Christ would have us to behave. However, I will be the first to admit that I am weak, and have a very difficult time not calling people out for their lack of respect, among other failings.

I know that it will in no way help derek out in making him a better person (if anything, it will only make him more bitter) For only God can work the miracle that needs to happen, hence the prayer. But I wanted others to truly understand him for the type of person he is so that they will take his comments with a grain of salt; if they weren't already.

bk

63

You know, I've yet to meet a JW who can explain this

by Lady Zombie in

i know that has probably been covered ad infinitum on jwd.

so...... if jehovah is omnipotent, then there is nothing he can't do and nothing he doesn't know.. and, according to jws (as well as most other religions), god is love.

therefore he had to have known, even before creating all of creation, what would happen.

Slappy

Sorry, my bad. Your constant reference to JW beliefs and interpretations of the Bible threw me off. But again, if you have read the Bible, and have honestly tried to understand what it's saying (not the easiest thing to do, i'll admit that), then you would have known that God is Holy and Righteous as well as Love, and that when you take all three together, things make more sense than when you take Love by itself. And a lot of the arguments you made have been answered in the Bible. Again, it's not the easiest thing to ascertain, but they are in there, it just takes some digging. (Not talking about interpreting things to suit what you believe--aka. JWs--but to truly understand what God would have us to understand.)

At that time Jesus answered and said, I thank thee, O Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because thou hast hid these things from the wise and prudent, and hast revealed them unto babes. Matthew 11:25

Maybe you should ask yourself why you don't believe. I know that one reason is that, through logic (flawed or otherwise), things don't add up. However, that's a "sympton" and not a "cause". There is another reason for you not wanting to believe, and the "logic" thing has become the excuse for not believing.

And this I say, lest any man should beguile you with enticing words...Rooted and built up in him [Christ], and stablished in the faith, as ye have been taught, abounding therein with thanksgiving. Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ. Colossians 2:4, 7 & 8

I know that my friends, while not denying the existence of God, have put Him as far away from their minds as possible. This is because they feel that God condemns them for many of the things that they do, and life is just a lot easier and more enjoyable without God in there complicating things. (False perception btw. I used to be right there with them, and while I won't deny that I enjoyed it, I am much happier and content with my life now that I have been studying and researching God's Word. I am infinitely more at peace also.)

I also have known professors that have denied the existence of God because they have been convinced of their own superiority and the thought that there might be something greater out there is just something they cannot live with. (Pride is a killer, and was the reason for Lucifer's downfall, which I think is why God hates pride sooooo much. So God didn't create evil, but the ability for it exist was there and as a result of free-will we have the option of choosing one or the other. By the way, read Ezekiel 28, I find it eerily representational of the downfall of Satan.)

I'm not saying that this is why you don't believe, I'm just giving some examples of people I've known who have held similar beliefs. There are many many other "reasons" out there, and I'm sure you know of a few that I don't.

Lol, it's funny you bring up that JWs think they are the only one's with the truth. I have a non-denominational background, and they thought they were the only place with the truth. This "mindset" has never set well with me. I feel that it doesn't convey the true Spirit of Christ and we are only humans, so how can we say for sure what is and what isn't? We can't! That's why I don't want people to be basing their impression of God and His Word off of what "religions" say or do. That is why I am all for searching for the answers yourself from within God's Word. I have spent the last 18 months or so, trying to put together a thesis of sorts to refute the entire "one-place" thing that most if not all religions hold. Anyway, that's more than a little off-topic, so I'll leave well enough alone.

bk

97

Convictions or Reasons - which come first?

by nicolaou in

it's obvious right?

your convictions are supported by and dependant upon your reasoning and evidence.

what kind of person would choose a conviction first and then hunt around for evidence to support it, all the time ignoring any sound refutation and evidence which countered their cherished belief?.

Slappy

And things just got a little less civil...I have that effect at times.

funkyderek, I'll say this as kindly as possible, but I can't promise much. Do you feel better? Does it get your rocks off to blast others' remarks for no other reason than that you can? I have my evidence and reasoning and you have yours. I understand your evidence and why you believe what you do, but you can't, and I honestly believe you don't even try to understand my point of view. As a result of not understanding something, you immediately assume it's wrong, and as a result you deteriorate into a complete bigot and contribute absolutely nothing in way of a constructive debate. You know why you don't bother trying to understand it? You're afraid. You're afraid that maybe, just maybe, your superior intellectual capabilities aren't as superior as you think, and that there is a God out there who is disappointed and hurt (not angry) with your constant rejection after all He has done for you.

Actions have consequences. Posting poorly-thought out nonsense generally results in a critical response. I know it won't bother you too much though. You've got your invisible forcefield of faith to immunise you against any criticism.

Would you believe that I'm not entirely immune to critizism? Critizism, when offered in the proper spirit, can help us grow, whether it be physically, intellectualy, spiritually, etc... However, if that's what you view as critizism, then we're thinking of two different words. And since you are the intellectualy superior person, yours is the proper form, and I bow to your superiority, and count myself blessed that you would deem me worthy to bestow your attention upon. Actually your "critizism" did hurt me, but not in the sense that you might think. It hurts that you are so bitter and devoid of understanding that you have no other choice but to respond as you did. However, I will pray for you and that you may gain an understanding; for all things are possible for God.

But Jesus beheld [them], and said unto them, With men this is impossible; but with God all things are possible. Matthew 19:26

And sorry jgnat, but I'd read some of the posts in response to snowbird, and knew that my post would elicit backlash. And, as you can see, funkyderek didn't disappoint.

Trevor, it's a pleasure, and with your outlook on life you are a lot farther along than most of us. What was it Socrates said? Oh, yes...

“I know nothing except the fact of my ignorance” –Socrates
“True knowledge exists in knowing that you know nothing” –Socrates

bk

63

You know, I've yet to meet a JW who can explain this

by Lady Zombie in

i know that has probably been covered ad infinitum on jwd.

so...... if jehovah is omnipotent, then there is nothing he can't do and nothing he doesn't know.. and, according to jws (as well as most other religions), god is love.

therefore he had to have known, even before creating all of creation, what would happen.

Slappy

Actually, it's my understanding that those "pointless" things that you mentioned [blkblk13] were created for our enjoyment? Do you deny that you enjoy those things that God created? Makes sense does it not? If that is the case, who's enjoyment were we created for? Oh wait, we weren't created, we just "popped" into existence and slowly evolved to where we are now. We evolved from animals who have no reasoning ability or awareness of their finite lives [I believe that's what another poster said] to humans with a splendid ability to reason and logically think our way into and out of anything we do or don't want to believe. So when did this ability enter the timeline of evolution? (I hope I'm not making a false assumption here...If there is no God, then all this is here because of some cosmic occurence...right? At least I'm not aware of any other explanation; forgive my ignorance if there is.)

And if this is how things have come about, then we are here to live however long we do, enjoy our life, then die? That's a really good rationalization for people who don't want the restrictions that they feel God places on our lives if we live for Him. This way you can do whatever you want and you don't have to answer to anybody. As for the Jewish concept, jgnat, do you honestly think that after you die you are going to care whether or not you are "living on" in someone else's memory? Or that your wonderful children are carrying on your legacy? Will it help you sleep better in your grave? Not so much tossing and turning perhaps?

It's not that I need God to make my life have meaning, it's just that that is what makes the most sense to me. Please give me reasons (note the plural) for things that you will do in your lifetime that will actually matter once you're dead. Now it's easy to say that such-and-such will mean something to you while you are alive, but when you're no longer alive? Unless of course you argue that after our time here, that is all there is, there is no "after-life" in any way, shape, or form. Then again, that circles back to the question I've been asking. Sure, you generated some kind of meaning in your life by using your great reasoning abilities and you had an absolute blast for all those years you were alive. So what? Let's go ask a corpse if they're satisfied with everything they accomplished in life.

And veradico, (thx for the welcome btw, i'll try not to wear it out too quick ), your comment about meaning cannot "come from outside" is slightly flawed. If there is nothing outside us, then we are unable generate meaning within ourselves because we have nothing with which to base anything off of. Unless, of course, you have a very very active imagination...and I think those people are referred to as insane.

Ok, back to the original point brought up by Lady Zombie. I've heard similar arguments against the existence of God based on the entire "if God is love (as the Bible says), then there shouldn't be suffering (etc.), therefore the Bible isn't true and there is no God" This follows all rules of logical thinking and would be tough to refute...'cept for one small detail. You've made a false premise. It is true that God is Love, however, (and JWs never mention this because it would throw their beliefs out the window) God is also Holy and Righteous. I could explain why that makes a difference, but with your superior thinking abilities I'm sure you can figure it out.

As for the the "free-will" argument, I'm having a very hard time piecing that together in any sort of way that will make sense, but then again, I believe in God, so maybe my thinking prowess isn't up to par . (Also, it seems that a lot of your arguments are based off JW version of things.) So if we have free-will, why can't God be omnipotent? It's my understanding that God gave us free-will in order that we will make the conscious decision to come to Him of our own accord. He doesn't want to force us to be His, otherwise that would be slavery, and that goes against His nature. For if we come to Him of our own accord, it means so much more to Him, because our love was given freely, just as His was. God is omniscient, that means He knows what we are going to do before we do it. That doesn't mean that He's making us do those things (a lot of people make that assumption and therefore assume that there is no free-will, and that if there is no free-will then God isn't what the Bible says He is). It just means that He knows what's going to happen. Romans 8:29 "For whom He did foreknow..." Unless foreknow means something else...?

So again I will say this, read the Bible first and then form your arguments instead of basing your arguments off of the teachings of men. As humans we are very capable of making honest mistakes and some very not-so-honest mistakes. I can assure you that Lady Zombie hasn't read the Bible in full because a lot of her arguments are based off JWs or other religions, which, if she had read the Bible, she would know that more than a few of those teachings are off base.

bk

97

Convictions or Reasons - which come first?

by nicolaou in

it's obvious right?

your convictions are supported by and dependant upon your reasoning and evidence.

what kind of person would choose a conviction first and then hunt around for evidence to support it, all the time ignoring any sound refutation and evidence which countered their cherished belief?.

Slappy

Wow, that was civil in word usage only. Very good use of euphemisms by the way. I'm pretty sure that you called her (and anybody else that believes in such) insane, among other not-so-flattering terms...just in a lot more words.

I'm sure you have all heard this before, but on the off chance that you haven't here goes.

We who believe, base our belief on the Word of God, the Bible, as I'm sure you all know. Many people however, find it difficult to believe that those things written are true. Why? We read about Columbus, the rise and fall of Rome, and many other happenings in the past that historians have recorded. We weren't there to witness it first-hand, yet we believe that these things actually happened. Why? What is different about the history recorded in the Bible and every other bit of history? One point is that some of the things in the Bible are difficult for us to grasp (miracles and whatnot) because we don't see these things happening today. As a result, we rationalize that since there is not way that those things could happen (it's beyond our comprehension) we assume, and rightly so, that if one part of the Bible is false, then all of it is false. For if God can't lie, and there is a lie in the Bible, then the Bible cannot be truly God's Word. However, we must be careful to properly distinguish between a lie, and an honest mistake.

Sorry to bring up the faith argument again, since it is viewed as a cop-out by those who don't understand it, but what is the definition of faith? Faith is "belief that is not based on proof" according to www.dictionary.com (sorry, didn't have a websters handy). If we have proof, then faith no longer exists; why do you think that Christ said that the least in the Kingdom of Heaven is greater than the greatest prophets of old? (sorry for no references, I didn't feel like looking them up, but He is speaking in reference to John the Baptist). That is because all those that believe on Christ, and therefore God, believe without seeing, whereas those that believed in God pre-Christ, did so because God was a very real aspect in their life. Oh, sorry, I'm referencing the Bible again, which doesn't work since you don't believe in it. Bummer, what to do.

"And this I say, lest any man should beguile you with enticing words...Rooted and built up in him [Christ], and stablished in the faith, as ye have been taught, abounding therein with thanksgiving. Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ." Colossians 2:4, 7&8 (sorry, I lied, I did feel like looking up some references). Logic is all good and well, I'm a huge fan of it myself. But as snowbird said, logic can only take you so far. I think it would be a fair assessment that this is a case of the tool not fitting the job. It's been known to happen, so why not now? Oh, wait, is that another cop-out? So I should just keep hammering away at the nail with a pair of needle-nose pliers just so I can prove that it's not a nail because it's not behaving the way it's supposed to? (that was a hasty analogy, but I think it gets my point across).

One last point. This is a question I commonly ask because it makes people think. "In 80 or so years, is what we're doing here on earth really going to matter?" If there is no God, then no, what we're doing here doesn't matter. But if what we do doesn't matter, then why are we here? To have a good time? Again, are you going to care whether or not you had a good time after you die? So what is our purpose?

I like to view our time here as a test, to see if we are worthy to be called the Sons/Daughters of God. Now, you can bring up the argument about God being Love, so a true God wouldn't "test" us. However, that is only half true, and many, many people make that mistake. They leave out that God is also Righteous and Holy. When you throw those two adjectives into the mix, things change drastically.

Anyway, don't take what I say at face value (not like you need any encouragement there), but why don't you go see for yourself? Leave your pride at the door (is it so important that you're right in regard to this?) and ask God, with a willing heart and the desire to learn the Truth, to guide you. Oh wait, my bad, you can't ask somebody for help if you don't believe He exists...that would be weird.

bk

ps. can't wait to hear the backlash to this...

63

You know, I've yet to meet a JW who can explain this

by Lady Zombie in

i know that has probably been covered ad infinitum on jwd.

so...... if jehovah is omnipotent, then there is nothing he can't do and nothing he doesn't know.. and, according to jws (as well as most other religions), god is love.

therefore he had to have known, even before creating all of creation, what would happen.

Slappy

Is that what you want? Answers from somebody else? Will you even attempt to believe what they have to say even if it makes sense? Or will you put all of your time and effort into coming up with "ideas" that prove said explanations wrong? Have any of you actually attempted to read the Bible? Or are you afraid of what you might find? Fear is debillitating isn't it?

Sorry if that was a little scathing, but it's so frustrating when people ask all these questions and won't bother searching for the answers themselves. Since nobody is able to give them a "satisfactory" answer, they feel justified in their belief that God doesn't exist or that He isn't who the Bible says He is. Granted, the questions you ask have merit, but I think it has to do more with the spirit in which you ask them.

I'm not a JW, and would ask that you not judge God and what He gives us in His Word based solely on what JWs say, or any organized religion for that matter. Religion, in my opinion, is another institution set up by man to gain control over something he didn't previously have control over, God. Sorry, that's a soapbox of mine, and I'll try to stay away from it.

As for reading the Bible, you could start anywhere. I myself am rather fond of Romans 14, and would urge everybody to read that portion. I feel that many people who know and fear God have forgotten what Paul lays out in that chapter. As a result we (yes, even myself at times) do not act in a way that is according to God's desire thereby giving false impressions of who and what God is to those who don't believe. That's why God urges us to seek Him, that way He will give us a true representation of Himself. It is something that we have to do for ourselves, others cannot do it for us.

Granted, if you don't believe in God, it's easy to rationalize that it's not worth the time to read a book on something that doesn't exist. But, that being said, can you say with 100% certainty that there is no God in existence? I was raised in a "christian home" (as people like to call it), so you can argue that I was brain-washed (or whatnot) as a child and am therefore biased in my beliefs. However, it has been my experiences over my life (23 years...so you can also argue that I haven't had time to see enough to dissuade my belief in God) that have not only verified my belief in God, but strengthened my relationship with Him. One question that I have found useful to ask myself and others is this "In 80 yrs (give or take a few) does all of this really matter?" The point is that if there is no God, then what is the point of our existence? To enjoy our time here on earth for the brief while we are here? Seems rather pointless doesn't it? But if there is a God, then there is a point, because after our time here, we move onto the next stage in "life". So I ask this again, "Can you say with absolute certainty that there is no God?" Because what if you're wrong and there is a God? Is your pride worth what may come afterward?

Sorry for not directly answering your questions (which I'm sure a few of you will bash me for), but my point is that I want you to search, with an open mind (which is why I suggest Romans 14), for the answers yourself. You're not afraid are you?

bk