You know, I've yet to meet a JW who can explain this

by Lady Zombie 63 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

• 

  Lady Zombie

  I know that has probably been covered ad infinitum on JWD.

  So.....

  If Jehovah is omnipotent, then there is nothing he can't do and nothing he doesn't know.

  And, according to JWs (as well as most other religions), God is love.

  Therefore he had to have known, even before creating all of creation, what would happen. He would have had to know even before creating Lucifer that Lucifer would cause Adam and Eve to sin. Even before that, he would have had to have known about the whole history yet to come, all the way up to the end, and beyond.

  So why bother? Why bother creating things that will turn against him?

  And, if god is love, why make humans suffer the fallout of an argument between him and Lucifer? Those boys should have just taken it outside. After all, if god and the angels are perfect and so far above us, it seems very unfair to use weak and lowly creatures as pawns.

  The average JW will begin to talk about "free will" and the "loving" provision of Christ's death.

  At that point, you point out that if humans have free will, then any choice they make would be made at that moment in time, meaning Jehovah wouldn't have prior knowledge and a subsequent plan of attack afterwards. Therefore if humans have free will, then God isn't omnipotent. And if god isn't omnipotent, then there are other things that are beyond his control.

  Oh no, says the JW, god is omnipotent. Well sorry, it just seems to me that you can't have free will and an omnipotent god at the same time.

  As for Christ's death, why would god need to set up a get out of jail pass if he knows that he will ultimately be victorious and knew that from the beginning? Seems kind of redundant to me.

  Also, it is obvious that the universe had a definite beginning. Even according to the bible, it had a beginning "In the beginning, God created the heavens and the earth." Along with this, everything god created had/has a purpose. Still further, god is the definition of good, meaning no evil can exist in god. Remember too, "god is love."

  If god created everything (including Lucifer) and if everything has a purpose, then god purposely created evil. How can a being in which evil cannot exist, create evil?

  So if god created evil, then god cannot be good nor can god be love.

  And some people wonder why I'm an atheist.

  There are lots of other arguments that call into question the motives of god.

  To be fair, it isn't just the JWs who can't make logical, non-circular rebuttals to these arguments, but the Dubs really get bent out of shape.

  You'd think they'd concentrate on coming up with logical arguments to counter so that all the atheists and agnostics will convert.

  Hmmmm.
• 

  jwfacts

  Good points. The sovereignty issue is senseless. A loving all-knowing God would not have created man in a way that such evil could enter the world. Free-will is also a false concept. For everlasting life a person is not going to have free will, as they have to abide by God's rules and boundaries so as not to be destroyed. God could have allowed this same amount of limited-will without the need for evil.

  Furthermore, if Jesus paid the Ransom 2000 years ago, God could have done away with sin 2000 years ago.
• 

  jookbeard

  Great points
• 

  wozadummy

  Iff we have free will how is it that we are also supposedly born into a weak and sinful state given to us by long past parents? We are trapped then to make imperfect decisions with that free will that may lead to us not attaining everlasting life. How can a ransom be paid one third of mankinds history ago ,and yet there is the vast majority of mankind knowing nothing of Jehovah? If god is not partial how is it that the vast majority of non whites are not following Jehovah ,does this mean their free will is of a poorer quality than say one million American JW's?
• 

  aSphereisnotaCircle

  Why did jah create free will when he knew it would cause more then 99% of the population not serve him?

  If Jah is the creator, then he is responsible for all that has happened in the world.

  You cannot make something, and then blame the object for not being up to your standards.
• 

  veradico

  The Society is rather clear that while Jehovah could be omniscient, he chooses not to be. He limits his omniscience in order to preserve our "free will" (Adam and Eve's free will would be included in this). Of course, this creates numerous difficulties when you start thinking about all the prophetic nonsense JWs say Jehovah foretold (and thus foreknew) in the Bible. In those instances, at least, it would seem that people's freedom to do otherwise was circumscribed by the necessity that Jehovah's Word be true and "not come back to him without results." I've never seen them invoke, say, Augustine's argument that "to observe or know" is not the same as "to cause". But the argument you raise is more subtle yet. For, even if Jehovah observed what certain prophetic people would do but did not cause them to do it (how this is possible, since he set the whole chain of events in motion, is beyond me.), your point remains: How could the God of Love foreknow what would happen and yet allow it? Part of the problem is that these kinds of questions and any attempts to answer them would have to be articulated in a register the Watchtower writers are either unwilling or unable to shift into. If they are unwilling, I'm sure they would say it's because they fear such questions would "stumble" those with "weak" faith or "waste" precious time which should be spent preaching.
• 

  tijkmo

  god is all powerful....but he doesnt use all his power when he uses his power to do things..cos that would become a monty python sketch.

  so his ability to know all or foresee all is totally dependant on his desire to use his infinite ability..which he chooses not to do.

  as would you or i if we were he

  ta-da
• 

  sir82

  so his ability to know all or foresee all is totally dependant on his desire to use his infinite ability..which he chooses not to do.

  Yeah, but whether he "chooses to do so" or not, "the future" is still out there. There can only be one, if it is possible to be foreseen. If there were more than one possible future, then God, in the moment he does choose to use that ability, might foresee the wrong one.

  Whether God chooses to see it or not, if there is only one future that is possible to be foreseen, then there is no such thing as "free will". And if there is more than one future possible, then "the" future cannot be foreseen and thus God cannot be omniscient.
• 

  OnTheWayOut

  The idea of free will goes like this:

  Adam and Eve had the free will to obey God or not, to choose to
  make decisions for themselves or not. If they chose to disobey and
  make decisions for themselves, God would use his cruelty and give
  her birth pains and take away their little paradise and eventually cause
  them to die. SOME FREE WILL.

  The reason they say this, and the reason they say God set up the
  sacrifice of Jesus according to His perfect justice is because the JW's
  had to use the cards they were dealt. "This is the Bible, make a plausible
  set of doctrines out of it. Make it difficult to explain and difficult to
  argue against, so people will assume you know what you are talking about."
• 

  Seeker4

  God's limiting his ability to foreknow is one of the oddest teachings of the JWs - and very, very difficult to wrap your head around!
  
  It's an absurd idea created by believing another absurd idea - that there is an all-knowing, all powerful creator.
  
  S4