Posts by Slappy

421

jesus denies being God! scriptural discussion.

by reniaa in

i thought after recently reading the bible i would put up for disussion some recent scriptures up which for me show that jesus never viewed himself as god and anyone listening would also see it this way too.. first mark 10 :17-20.

17as jesus started on his way, a man ran up to him and fell on his knees before him.

"good teacher," he asked, "what must i do to inherit eternal life?

Slappy

Now my words are not to lessen Jesus because he is wonderful he has saved us there is none above him accept God Jehovah, so in my book jesus is marvelous too he just isn't God, king yes, ruler yes mediator yes (why would God mediate himself or even need a mediator if he was Jesus?)

Reniaa, who could save us but God Himself? Nothing less than the sacrifice of perfection (See the command that the passover lamb be without spot or blemish) could atone for our pathetic selves. As many scriptures point out, and which you CANNOT refute, God alone is perfect.

Jesus could not just be a man who was perfect, for as is pointed out in Isaiah 64:6,

But we are all like an unclean thing,
And all our righteousnesses are like filthy rags;
We all fade as a leaf,
And our iniquities, like the wind,
Have taken us away.

If Jesus was a man, he would not be able to be the sacrifice that was required to save us.

He therefore cannot be a man. Neither is He an angel (not that an angel could make the sacrifice that was required anyway). I don't feel like going through that particular explanation seeing as how several others have done so more than adequately and I see no need to reinvent the wheel.

Perhaps there is some 'middle' ground (not that I believe that there is) that I am unaware that would allow for Jesus to be that sacrifice to atone for our unrighteousness and still not be God. If there is, please enlighten me. I'm only too happy to learn more of Him.

slappy

421

jesus denies being God! scriptural discussion.

by reniaa in

i thought after recently reading the bible i would put up for disussion some recent scriptures up which for me show that jesus never viewed himself as god and anyone listening would also see it this way too.. first mark 10 :17-20.

17as jesus started on his way, a man ran up to him and fell on his knees before him.

"good teacher," he asked, "what must i do to inherit eternal life?

Slappy

I claim to only know a little, but could both of you not be using the wrong source to argue your point?

Joseph, you're obviously very well versed in Paul's ministry, and that is commendable; however, Paul is not the only source...neither is he the most important source. One would think that as a student of Paul, you would keep in mind 1 Corinthians 8:1-3 (I know it's in relation to idols, but the idea is applicable across the board).

Anyway, the reason that Paul doesn't seem to give any definitives on the subject is because that was not his calling. His purpose was not to go around proving to his audience that Jesus was or was not God, but to bring others to Him, and to protect the Church (collective body of believers) from the constant legalism and false doctrines that threatened to envelope it. In fact, as I have read and studied his letters, I have gotten the impression that he was writing with the assumption that his audience already accepted the fact that Jesus is God (however, that is just my impression).

Therefore, if you want to continue this discussion from a source that is actually relevant to said topic, would not the Epistles of John or the Gospel of John be more suited to such? Afterall, John's Gospel was written for the exact reason you are arguing over, was it not? Matthew's Gospel was written to the Jews and for the Jews, Mark's Gospel was written to the Gentiles, and for the Gentiles, and Luke's Gospel was written for several reasons, not the least of which was to show that Jesus was truly the Messiah.

Anyway, just a suggestion. Perhaps I misspoke and I, too, do not understand things. In which case I'm sure I will be corrected, and which correction I will gladly receive.

slappy

421

jesus denies being God! scriptural discussion.

by reniaa in

i thought after recently reading the bible i would put up for disussion some recent scriptures up which for me show that jesus never viewed himself as god and anyone listening would also see it this way too.. first mark 10 :17-20.

17as jesus started on his way, a man ran up to him and fell on his knees before him.

"good teacher," he asked, "what must i do to inherit eternal life?

Slappy

Anybody realize that what is now occurring is quite possibly the single greatest way for us to show the truth of Christ to those in need of Him? We can talk till we are blue in the face and beat a subject to death with all sorts of logic and scriptural proof and still accomplish nothing. And yet, when it all comes down to it, Christ can and will defend Himself (as does the Bible); it is our purpose to be a shining example of Him while here on this earth. Actions speak louder than words.

In John 17, where Jesus prays for all believers, from then till eternity, it's interesting to see what He is praying for. He is praying that we may all be one. It is that oneness, that unity in Christ, that love for all fellow believers that epitomizes all that is Christ.

However, for this reason I obtained mercy, that in me first Jesus Christ might show all longsuffering, as a pattern to those who are going to believe on Him for everlasting life. 1 Timothy 1:16

421

jesus denies being God! scriptural discussion.

by reniaa in

i thought after recently reading the bible i would put up for disussion some recent scriptures up which for me show that jesus never viewed himself as god and anyone listening would also see it this way too.. first mark 10 :17-20.

17as jesus started on his way, a man ran up to him and fell on his knees before him.

"good teacher," he asked, "what must i do to inherit eternal life?

Slappy

For to me, to live is Christ, and to die is gain. But if I live on in the flesh, this will mean fruit from my labor; yet what I shall choose I cannot tell. For I am hard-pressed between the two, having a desire to depart and be with Christ, which is far better. Nevertheless to remain in the flesh is more needful for you. And being confident of this, I know that I shall remain and continue with you all for your progress and joy of faith, that your rejoicing for me may be more abundant in Jesus Christ by my coming to you again. Philippians 1:21-26

Therefore we also, since we are surrounded by so great a cloud of witnesses, let us lay aside every weight, and the sin which so easily ensnares us, and let us run with endurance the race that is set before us, looking unto Jesus, the author and finisher of our faith, who for the joy that was set before Him endured the cross, despising the shame, and has sat down at the right hand of the throne of God. Hebrews 12:1-2

421

jesus denies being God! scriptural discussion.

by reniaa in

i thought after recently reading the bible i would put up for disussion some recent scriptures up which for me show that jesus never viewed himself as god and anyone listening would also see it this way too.. first mark 10 :17-20.

17as jesus started on his way, a man ran up to him and fell on his knees before him.

"good teacher," he asked, "what must i do to inherit eternal life?

Slappy

Quite possibly my favorite hymn...if such a term is even possible with respect to all the amazing hymns that have been inspired for love of Christ...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ovYPQl93zro

421

jesus denies being God! scriptural discussion.

by reniaa in

i thought after recently reading the bible i would put up for disussion some recent scriptures up which for me show that jesus never viewed himself as god and anyone listening would also see it this way too.. first mark 10 :17-20.

17as jesus started on his way, a man ran up to him and fell on his knees before him.

"good teacher," he asked, "what must i do to inherit eternal life?

Slappy

"In my vision at night I looked, and there before me was one like a son of man, coming with the clouds of heaven. He approached the Ancient of Days and was led into his presence.

You have the right of it, however, you are overlooking one fairly important fact, which Jesus himself tells us to keep in mind.

You are mistaken, not knowing the Scriptures nor the power of God. Matthew 22:29

Do you honestly claim to know all that God is capable of? Just because physically, here on earth, a son cannot also be his father, does that somehow make it impossible for God to be so?

And Jesus looking upon them saith, With men it is impossible, but not with God: for with God all things are possible. Mark 10:27

If you deny that simple, yet profound, statement, you are denying God Himself. Are you so bold?

421

jesus denies being God! scriptural discussion.

by reniaa in

i thought after recently reading the bible i would put up for disussion some recent scriptures up which for me show that jesus never viewed himself as god and anyone listening would also see it this way too.. first mark 10 :17-20.

17as jesus started on his way, a man ran up to him and fell on his knees before him.

"good teacher," he asked, "what must i do to inherit eternal life?

Slappy

Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus: Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God: But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men: And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross. Philippians 2:5-8

Furthermore, in the NASB, the phrase "...made himself of no reputation..." is translated as "...but emptied Himself...", which captures the idea that was conveyed in the Greek.

Explain that please!

slappy

421

jesus denies being God! scriptural discussion.

by reniaa in

i thought after recently reading the bible i would put up for disussion some recent scriptures up which for me show that jesus never viewed himself as god and anyone listening would also see it this way too.. first mark 10 :17-20.

17as jesus started on his way, a man ran up to him and fell on his knees before him.

"good teacher," he asked, "what must i do to inherit eternal life?

Slappy

you then use hebrews scripture
Hbr 1:4 Being made so much better than the angels, as he hath by inheritance obtained a more excellent name than they
you are making a point between better and greater but you miss that the scripture talks on jesus being 'MADE' if he is of equal Godhead he was never made.

Just noticed what you said here.

First off, I suggest you look to the original language and determine what is really meant by the term that has been translated as 'made'.

Secondly, Jesus claims to be the Son of God. Can you deny that your parents 'made' you? However, as a child of theirs, they also 'begot' you. This, I think, is the sense of the english word 'made' as it is used in this instance. Get a concordance and determine for youself.

Thirdly, further on in that same portion, the author uses the word 'inheritance'. The angles don't inherit anything; they are only creations and can become nothing more. Christ was begotten (John 3:16) of God, and as such is THE SON OF GOD. Therefore, He has INHERITED a more excellent name. We can also inherit from God even though we are only creations. However, unlike the angels, we have the possiblity of believing in Christ and become like Him. For when we believe on Him, we are adopted into the FAMILY OF GOD. This would NOT be possible if Christ was not God. For why would belief on Christ enable the Spirit of God to dwell within in each believer? Belief in God allows Him to dwell within each of His children. However, we are told to believe on Christ since He is the physical representation of God Himself, and is the proof given to us of God's existence and great love toward us.

slappy

421

jesus denies being God! scriptural discussion.

by reniaa in

i thought after recently reading the bible i would put up for disussion some recent scriptures up which for me show that jesus never viewed himself as god and anyone listening would also see it this way too.. first mark 10 :17-20.

17as jesus started on his way, a man ran up to him and fell on his knees before him.

"good teacher," he asked, "what must i do to inherit eternal life?

Slappy

For the portion in Mark 10 that you keep harping on. Make an honest attempt to interpret it for yourself and not just take some WT rhetoric as your understanding; there are shaky foundations, and then there are shaky foundations. Yours would be the later.

This 'random' Jew as you classify him, greeted Jesus without really thinking much of what he said. He said "Good Teacher..." without comprehending that Jesus was God. By using the word "Teacher", the rich man acknowledged Jesus as a great prophet, but nothing more. Jesus recognized this and called the rich man out on it. He wasn't correcting the statement about Him being "Good", He was correcting the the rich man's belief that He was just a great prophet/teacher. Jesus is so much more. So Jesus was asking him why, if he viewed Jesus only as a prophet, he used the term "Good" in relation to such. For none is Good save God, so the rich man must either view Jesus as only a mere prophet and not attach "Good" to Him, or view Him as He really is, God manifest in the flesh. However, if the rich man disassociated the term "Good" and viewed Jesus only as a prophet, then the question that he was asking (How to attain eternal life.) was not really a question that can be asked of a mere prophet. For only God can give us the knowledge of how to attain eternal life.

slappy

421

jesus denies being God! scriptural discussion.

by reniaa in

i thought after recently reading the bible i would put up for disussion some recent scriptures up which for me show that jesus never viewed himself as god and anyone listening would also see it this way too.. first mark 10 :17-20.

17as jesus started on his way, a man ran up to him and fell on his knees before him.

"good teacher," he asked, "what must i do to inherit eternal life?

Slappy

Lilly,

That's quite possibly one of the best explanations I've heard yet. Thanks for sharing it.

Reniaa,

You ask a question in order to try to make a point that Jesus isn't God. Then when people bring up the Trinity you reject that as a different subject and not relevant. This shows how little you truly understand the Person of God. Your question is not only directly related to the Trinity, it is the Trinity itself. Just because you left the Holy Spirit out of it doesn't make it any less.

I, too, used to hold that the idea of the Trinity was not important and necessary for salvation. However, as I became more familiar with the Bible, my view began to change. While the term 'Trinity' is no doubt a man-made term, the idea it conveys is not man-made. If Jesus was not God, then all He did and all He said was a lie. I'm not sure if you can put your faith in Christ and then not hold that He is God. If He isn't God, then we are just putting our faith in another 'man', and we all know where faith in 'man' leads.

Many 'organized religions' reject this idea of a 'Trinity' because by doing so it enables them to undercut the Deity of Jesus, thereby putting Him on a back-burner as it were. This then opens up the possibility to interpret things the way they want and massage and bastardize the Person of God to suit their own agenda. This is clearly evident in the Mormon and JW religions.

Anyway, since it's clear that you will ignore anything we say that contradicts your 'WT inspired beliefs', I will refrain from saying more. All I can ask is that you make an honest attempt at understanding the nuance of those portions you quoted and misinterpreted, preferably without the NWT. For when it all comes down to it, anything we say will have no effect on you; you are the only person who can affect to change your 'beliefs'.

Christian conversion is not a result of human persuasion, but of the 'soil' and the manifestation of God's grace.

If you truly ask God for help in discerning the truth contained within His Word, He will guide you; of that I have no doubt!

slappy