i thought after recently reading the bible i would put up for disussion some recent scriptures up which for me show that jesus never viewed himself as god and anyone listening would also see it this way too.. first mark 10 :17-20.
17as jesus started on his way, a man ran up to him and fell on his knees before him.
"good teacher," he asked, "what must i do to inherit eternal life?
Slappy and StAnn,
I think you two are going to convert me to full trinitarian yet.
The Spirit leads as the Spirit wills, I claim nothing.
In truth, I wasn't sure of the importance of understanding the idea of the Trinity myself. However, as a result of this topic and having to look a little deeper into God's Word, I am beginning to see that such a relationship is not only possible, but quite possibly necessary.
slappy
i thought after recently reading the bible i would put up for disussion some recent scriptures up which for me show that jesus never viewed himself as god and anyone listening would also see it this way too.. first mark 10 :17-20.
17as jesus started on his way, a man ran up to him and fell on his knees before him.
"good teacher," he asked, "what must i do to inherit eternal life?
The fact is that the Apostles worshiped Jesus and you cannot worship anyone but God.
Lovelylil,
Of course you can. The word worship was also used for people in scripture with no problem. I have examples in my manuscript. It is another word with other meanings like this. And God himself made this a feature of Christ's ministry and Kingdom. Old testament restrictions have been lifted in His case. Like growing up, once we have the basics down pat. The problem it however that most do not. It is like an inheritance in our Lord's case, given as a gift at His second coming.. Heb 1:6 And again, when he bringeth in the firstbegotten into the world, he saith, And let all the angels of God worship him. This is the way it will be at that time. The angels (actually resurrected or changed human beings in this verse that are witnesses to this reality) worship Him. And there are other forms of worship that apply to Kings which are in keeping with this word. Do not mis-apply it in some absolute sense never intended. The apostles or anyone else worship as they could for a King and yet they know the kind of worship that can only be directed to YHWH so they were not confused. Like the word God where the wrong meanings are used, we have a like situation where a foundation laid improperly muddles the thought or applies it improperly.
Joseph
Joseph, I used to respect what you had to say...now...I'm not so sure anymore...
Now when the people saw what Paul had done, they raised their voices, saying in the Lycaonian language, “The gods have come down to us in the likeness of men!” 12 And Barnabas they called Zeus, and Paul, Hermes, because he was the chief speaker. 13 Then the priest of Zeus, whose temple was in front of their city, brought oxen and garlands to the gates, intending to sacrifice with the multitudes.
14 But when the apostles Barnabas and Paul heard this, they tore their clothes and ran in among the multitude, crying out 15 and saying, “Men, why are you doing these things? We also are men with the same nature as you, and preach to you that you should turn from these useless things to the living God, who made the heaven, the earth, the sea, and all things that are in them, 16 who in bygone generations allowed all nations to walk in their own ways. 17 Nevertheless He did not leave Himself without witness, in that He did good, gave us rain from heaven and fruitful seasons, filling our hearts with food and gladness.” 18 And with these sayings they could scarcely restrain the multitudes from sacrificing to them. Acts 14:11-18
You have been reduced to arguing semantics. That's not a problem if you would actually give more support than just your ideas. Bring in the actual Hebrew/Greek meaning as it is applied in each instance. For the word 'worship' may indeed be used as you said; however, that's after translation. What was the original language meaning for the instances you have reference to? (I would look it up myself, but I'm at work and don't have my concordance available).
Furthermore, as a student of the Apostle Paul, you of all people should know that Paul never once desired any personal glory. Any worship, no matter how it's applied, would have made him uncomfortable, and rigthly so. Also keep in mind that Jesus never once, once mind you, responded to any form of worship in such a fashion. What does that tell you?
Oh and I noticed that you said this in another post: If Jesus was a man, he would not be able to be the sacrifice that was required to save us.
Did you make this up or did you get it from someone else that was also confused on this requirement for the sacrifice? Most men would not qualify but Jesus did. Why? Because God was His Father and not Adam. This human Jesus, the literal creator of the human race in the beginning would now become the only human begotten by God personally. That is why the human Jesus was: (Trumpet blasts please) the only begotten Son of God.
Wow, just go back and read what I said again. I really do not feel like restating it all over. I will try to synopsize it though. Jesus was God manifest in the flesh:
And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory. 1 Timothy 3:16
God was in the form of man. This is one reason why the Son of God is 'less' than the Father. To be put into our inferior and fallible human bodies would have required that He 'give up' His glory else that 'temple' (human body) would not be able to contain Him.
Furthermore, a perfect and blameless sacrifice was required. No one is such except God Himself. Therefore, that perfect and blameless sacrifice that was required could be no less than God Himself.
Btw, you still haven't said anything about the very noticeable difference between 'express image' and 'image'. That is still one of the strongest arguments that Jesus is God.
Thank you, ecuador, for that point. Sometimes we get so caught up in trying to prove a point that we tend to ignore what is staring us in the face all along.
slappy
i thought after recently reading the bible i would put up for disussion some recent scriptures up which for me show that jesus never viewed himself as god and anyone listening would also see it this way too.. first mark 10 :17-20.
17as jesus started on his way, a man ran up to him and fell on his knees before him.
"good teacher," he asked, "what must i do to inherit eternal life?
If you are seriously interested in looking for more explanations on the subject who is God Yahweh and who is Jesus and the Holy Ghost go to the google group : alt.religion.jehovahs-witn . I wrote there on these subjects before. I am not a Jehovah's Witness ( from the organization you have in mind ) yet I have found more proofs to confirm their numerous beliefs .
Furthermore, JosephMalik said something about seeing his book on said subject.
Do either of these sources provide anything that the Bible, with prayerful consideration and prayerful study, cannot provide?
As things stand right now, it seems to be about "me" and "what I wrote" and "see how smart I am". As Paul states over and over and over, it's not about him, but about Christ. Christ is all to Paul. Christ is Paul's God. Good thing Christ is God, otherwise that would be a problem.
i mentioned to a bro.
who is supposed to be answering some of my "concerns" with wt teaching that all the non-witness refs.i have seen to the fall of jerusalem place it twenty years later at 587-586 bce.. he maintains that some scholars support 607. does anyone know of a reliable scholar ,who is a recognised expert in this period,who does support 607 ?.
i am well aware that it makes no difference,as the bible nowhere gives us 2520 years,but i am fed up with his assertions and would like to blow this one out of the water so i can ask him to please check his facts.. only help if you really have time ,it's not life or death.. many thanks.
I'm feeling incredibly immature at the moment...
1+1+1+1+1=5 or !!!!!
5-1 = 4 or ,!!!!
4-1=3 or ,!!!,
3-1=2 or ,.!!,
2-1-1=0 as in the 'null set', as in we have no idea.
Not that I'm ridiculing your incredible math skills. It's more the fact that it's quite clear in the Bible that we do not know when the end is. There are more than a few scriptures that make that statement. Why do you insist on going against scripture and making claims like that?
slappy
what did you do with your new wbt$ tract:"would you like to know the truth?"?
?.....i tossed mine in the garbage can!
!....now the garbage can has a stomach ache!..lol!
That is quite possibly the most hilarious discussion I have been witness to in a very very long time.
i thought after recently reading the bible i would put up for disussion some recent scriptures up which for me show that jesus never viewed himself as god and anyone listening would also see it this way too.. first mark 10 :17-20.
17as jesus started on his way, a man ran up to him and fell on his knees before him.
"good teacher," he asked, "what must i do to inherit eternal life?
This may have been mentioned before but I can't remember for sure and I most certainly did not feel like going back and seeing if it had. I do remember this scripture being reference, but I only remember Reniaa doing so; and since it's safe to assume that she did not use it properly, I will carry on.
I do not pray for these alone, but also for those who will believe in Me through their word; that they all may be one, as You, Father, are in Me, and I in You; that they also may be one in Us, that the world may believe that You sent Me. And the glory which You gave Me I have given them, that they may be one just as We are one: I in them, and You in Me; that they may be made perfect in one, and that the world may know that You have sent Me, and have loved them as You have loved Me. Father, I desire that they also whom You gave Me may be with Me where I am, that they may behold My glory which You have given Me; for You loved Me before the foundation of the world. O righteous Father! The world has not known You, but I have known You; and these have known that You sent Me. And I have declared to them Your name, and will declare it, that the love with which You loved Me may be in them, and I in them. John 17:20-26
I placed the emphasis on each capitalized pronoun with bold typesetting (other than 'I' for obvious reasons). The capitalization is as it is in the NKJV, NASB, KJV, and others.
What does this tell us? Not only the capitalization of the pronouns (which signify Deity), but the words of Jesus himself? Do you dare refute the words that passed His lips? Do you dare to say that what is being said is not actually what is being said?
God loves Jesus. Does God love angels?
Jesus knows God. Does a man know God? In the way that Jesus has reference to?
The term 'one' is used 5 times in this portion. Each time it is the same Greek word.
1520e?? [ heis / hice /] numeral. (including the neuter [etc.] hen); TDNT 2:434 ; TDNTA 214 ; GK 1651 ; 271 occurrences; AV translates as “one” 229 times, “a” nine times, “other” six times, “some” six times, not translated four times, and translated miscellaneously 17 times. 1 one. TDNT Theological Dictionary of the New Testament TDNTA Theological Dictionary of the New Testament, Abridged in One Volume GK Goodrick-Kohlenberger AV Authorized Version Strong, James: The Exhaustive Concordance of the Bible : Showing Every Word of the Text of the Common English Version of the Canonical Books, and Every Occurrence of Each Word in Regular Order. electronic ed. Ontario : Woodside Bible Fellowship., 1996, S. G1520
No nuance or anything that suggests 'one' is anything else than what it is; and that being 'one'. One is one, I really don't know how to say anymore than that.
I also looked up 'known' as that term is used 3 times in this portion.
1097????s?? [ ginosko / ghin· oce ·ko /] v . A prolonged form of a primary verb; TDNT 1:689 ; TDNTA 119 ; GK 1182 ; 223 occurrences; AV translates as “know” 196 times, “perceive” nine times, “understand” eight times, and translated miscellaneously 10 times. 1 to learn to know, come to know, get a knowledge of perceive, feel. 1a to become known. 2 to know, understand, perceive, have knowledge of. 2a to understand. 2b to know. 3 Jewish idiom for sexual intercourse between a man and a woman. 4 to become acquainted with, to know. v v : verb TDNT Theological Dictionary of the New Testament TDNTA Theological Dictionary of the New Testament, Abridged in One Volume GK Goodrick-Kohlenberger AV Authorized Version Strong, James: The Exhaustive Concordance of the Bible : Showing Every Word of the Text of the Common English Version of the Canonical Books, and Every Occurrence of Each Word in Regular Order. electronic ed. Ontario : Woodside Bible Fellowship., 1996, S. G1097
"The world has not known You...", but Jesus said "I have known You". Pay attention to the verb tense; 'have known' carries the sense of an ongoing knowledge that has been present forever. This corresponds with the phrase "...for You loved Me before the foundation of the world...".
slappy
i thought after recently reading the bible i would put up for disussion some recent scriptures up which for me show that jesus never viewed himself as god and anyone listening would also see it this way too.. first mark 10 :17-20.
17as jesus started on his way, a man ran up to him and fell on his knees before him.
"good teacher," he asked, "what must i do to inherit eternal life?
Exactly and divinity does not mean Trinity.
Are we arguing semantics now?
2304?e??? [ theios / thi ·os /] adj . From 2316 ; TDNT 3:122 ; TDNTA 322 ; GK 2521 ; Three occurrences; AV translates as “divine” twice, and “Godhead” once. 1 a general name of deities or divinities as used by the Greeks. 2 spoken of the only and true God, trinity. 2a of Christ. 2b Holy Spirit. 2c the Father. adj adj : adjective TDNT Theological Dictionary of the New Testament TDNTA Theological Dictionary of the New Testament, Abridged in One Volume GK Goodrick-Kohlenberger AV Authorized Version Strong, James: The Exhaustive Concordance of the Bible : Showing Every Word of the Text of the Common English Version of the Canonical Books, and Every Occurrence of Each Word in Regular Order. electronic ed. Ontario : Woodside Bible Fellowship., 1996, S. G2304
Um...btw, did you read what I posted on what the term 'express image' meant and how that contrasted with 'image'? That appeared to make things clearer, at least from my perspective.
i thought after recently reading the bible i would put up for disussion some recent scriptures up which for me show that jesus never viewed himself as god and anyone listening would also see it this way too.. first mark 10 :17-20.
17as jesus started on his way, a man ran up to him and fell on his knees before him.
"good teacher," he asked, "what must i do to inherit eternal life?
No one knows the nature or form of God and cannot define it in words or by artwork. They cannot even do this for the angels with similar nature or form. That is why so many different applications of words have made that only intended to simplify what is not comprehend able to us yet.
Aye, were it that we could all recognize that. Isn't it incredible how two little words "I AM" can flabbergast (lol, haven't used that word in a while) even the most poetic of us?!
And there are also many other things that Jesus did, which if they were written one by one, I suppose that even the world itself could not contain the books that would be written. Amen. John 21:25
i thought after recently reading the bible i would put up for disussion some recent scriptures up which for me show that jesus never viewed himself as god and anyone listening would also see it this way too.. first mark 10 :17-20.
17as jesus started on his way, a man ran up to him and fell on his knees before him.
"good teacher," he asked, "what must i do to inherit eternal life?
You can't say this and be agreement with a trinity whose only works if jesus gave up his godness to become man on earth can't you see the contradiction? you said "exact representation" before that I refer you to my above post about image and reflection jesus is still not God by these words just very like him, like you would expect of the Son. you quote heb 1:3
Hebrews 1:3
The Son is the radiance of God's glory and the exact representation of his being, sustaining all things by his powerful word. After he had provided purification for sins, he sat down at the right hand of the Majesty in heavenhere is Jesus apparently returned to heaven and newly God and yet he is still on the righthand and subserviant to God?
The term 'exact representation' is 'express image' in the KJV. Having looked up the phrase in Strong's, I offer the following:
5481?a?a?t?? [ charakter / khar·ak· tare /] n m . From the same as 5482 ; TDNT 9:418 ; TDNTA 1308 ; GK 5917 ; AV translates as “express image” once. 1 the instrument used for engraving or carving. 2 the mark stamped upon that instrument or wrought out on it. 2a a mark or figure burned in (Lev. 13:28) or stamped on, an impression. 2b the exact expression (the image) of any person or thing, marked likeness, precise reproduction in every respect, i.e facsimile. n n : noun or neuter m m : masculine TDNT Theological Dictionary of the New Testament TDNTA Theological Dictionary of the New Testament, Abridged in One Volume GK Goodrick-Kohlenberger AV Authorized Version Strong, James: The Exhaustive Concordance of the Bible : Showing Every Word of the Text of the Common English Version of the Canonical Books, and Every Occurrence of Each Word in Regular Order. electronic ed. Ontario : Woodside Bible Fellowship., 1996, S. G5481
Furthermore, I refer you to Genesis 1:26 & 27...
And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth. So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.
The term 'image' as it is used here (notice that it is without the term 'express') is defined as follows:
6754?????, ????? [ tselem / tseh ·lem /] n m . From an unused root meaning to shade; TWOT 1923a ; GK 7512 and 7513 ; 17 occurrences; AV translates as “image” 16 times, and “vain shew” once. 1 image. 1a images (of tumours, mice, heathen gods). 1b image, likeness (of resemblance). 1c mere, empty, image, semblance (fig.). n n : noun m m : masculine TWOT Theological Wordbook of the Old Testament GK Goodrick-Kohlenberger AV Authorized Version Strong, James: The Exhaustive Concordance of the Bible : Showing Every Word of the Text of the Common English Version of the Canonical Books, and Every Occurrence of Each Word in Regular Order. electronic ed. Ontario : Woodside Bible Fellowship., 1996, S. H6754
Can that be any clearer??!!
what did you do with your new wbt$ tract:"would you like to know the truth?"?
?.....i tossed mine in the garbage can!
!....now the garbage can has a stomach ache!..lol!
Paper airplane...it got hijacked though...and crashed and burned...lots of smoke...
What can I say...I got bored...
slappy
