The latest instalment is coming to convince everybody that there is only one channel - one God approved religion!
So folks, what arguments do you think the WTS will use to "prove" that there is A TRUE RELIGION FROM GOD'S STANDPOINT?
Lukewarm
LUKEWARM
JoinedPosts by LUKEWARM
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Special Bible talk entitled: IS THERE A TRUE RELIGION FROM GODS STANDPOINT? - Coming to a Kingdom Hall near you on Sunday, April 26, 2009
by LUKEWARM inthe latest instalment is coming to convince everybody that there is only one channel - one god approved religion!.
so folks, what arguments do you think the wts will use to "prove" that there is a true religion from god's standpoint?.
lukewarm.
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LUKEWARM
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The Official What happened at the Memorial thread
by truthseeker ini thought rather than everyone start their own topic relating their experience of attending the memorial, we keep it simple and have just one thread.
if anything, it's saves bandwidth.. i will be going to the memorial tonight and will post my experiences afterwards.. all the other memorials i attended, i was an active jw, so this will be my first experience as a submarine witness.
it's weird being on the other side so to speak.
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LUKEWARM
Don't have the letter - should have asked the chairman to see it after the program...
Anyone else feel that the letter sounded quite desperate? -
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The Official What happened at the Memorial thread
by truthseeker ini thought rather than everyone start their own topic relating their experience of attending the memorial, we keep it simple and have just one thread.
if anything, it's saves bandwidth.. i will be going to the memorial tonight and will post my experiences afterwards.. all the other memorials i attended, i was an active jw, so this will be my first experience as a submarine witness.
it's weird being on the other side so to speak.
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LUKEWARM
Not sure it was the same as last year, but I was embarrassed by its lack of tact!
Surely 'the boys in writing' could have made it more neutral and inviting for the Christians who attended instead of pushing the "Gods Organization" line... -
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The Official What happened at the Memorial thread
by truthseeker ini thought rather than everyone start their own topic relating their experience of attending the memorial, we keep it simple and have just one thread.
if anything, it's saves bandwidth.. i will be going to the memorial tonight and will post my experiences afterwards.. all the other memorials i attended, i was an active jw, so this will be my first experience as a submarine witness.
it's weird being on the other side so to speak.
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LUKEWARM
What was with the letter they read out at the end - it sounded so desperate and like they were begging for followers. Anyone else notice that?
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Special Post: 1 year anniversary on JWN - My intro finally posted
by Awakened at Gilead ini came on jwd a year ago tomorrow, having realized that jws were not the truth, quite painfully, on march 29, 2008. i was here within a week, and within 2 months i was officially dad by my congregation.. ever since joining, i have never actually wrote down a comprehensive look at why i left the organization.
what doubts caused me to leave?
why did a gilead grad leave what i once considered so precious?.
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LUKEWARM
Wow, did not realise this was taught at Gillead - do you have some of the textbooks used for this?
It turned out that every event in the Hebrew Scriptures was just a foreshadowing of the modern day history of the Watchtower organization. Job's comforters? False religionists attacking the anointed. The 10 plagues? This occurred to show how the work that Jehovah's people did since 1914 caused plagues to occur ion modern day Egypt (the world) in a spiritual sense. Noah and his unnamed wife? Jesus and the anointed remnant. Samson? The anointed remnant. Elijah? The anointed in the time of Russell / Rutherford. Elisha? The anointed in the time of Knorr since 1942. Isaiah? The anointed. Jeremiah? The anointed. Daniel? The anointed. Behemoth? God's organization. Leviathan? Satan's evil organization. Israelites leaving Egypt? The anointed. Vast mixed company? The great crowd. Get the picture?Incredible how the whole Bible has a secondary fulfilment and reflects something greater especially the JW events after 1919!Loved this bit
If Jehovah's Witnesses based their entire belief system on the Bible, and nothing else, then wouldn't it be easier to preach to those who had an intimate knowledge of the Bible? Would they be more attracted to the "truth"? Unless, the thought came to me again, that perhaps we didn't have the truth after all. Thanks 4 posting your story -
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Long time lurker, 1st time poster
by Mattieu inwell where do i start, perhaps will go into more detail later, though briefly - 40 years young, raised in the truth (kingdom baby, which meant i was never going to make it to primary/secondary school/work/get married/have kids....) former ms, regular pioneer, learnt 3 foreign languages, served in foreign language group, married (wife still goes to meetings), beautiful kids, baptised at 15 years of age, regular pioneer at 15, grew up in divided house.. .
hmmm, will go into my issues with all things organisational later, though firstly want to apologise, for being a self righteous spiritual pratt who did things by the book and sat with other elders/mss and prejudged others for not doing enough and having a wrong attitude about all matters spiritual and organisational.
i stepped down as an ms over a year ago (they were grooming me to be an elder), havent been to a meeting in 3 months, i knew it wasnt the truth for a number of years and have struggled badly the last few years.
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LUKEWARM
Welcome Mattieu!
Great read and you have done well to have wife and mother in law on the same wavelength. Tell us more about what worked in your case to get them to think and question matters....
Looking forward to hearing more from you
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Congregation Bible Study Comments - Week Commencing 6 April 2009
by LUKEWARM in" (1 corinthians 5:11-13).
(a) why is the disfellowshipping arrangement a loving one?
20 the disfellowshipping arrangement is really a loving provision from jehovah.
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LUKEWARM
Well said FT09 and welcome to the board!
Was sad to read your experience - you have been through a lot and I will look forward to reading your story one day.
The WTS are masters at twisting scriptures and "lording it over" peoples lives.
Hang in there!
Lukewarm -
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Congregation Bible Study Comments - Week Commencing 6 April 2009
by LUKEWARM in" (1 corinthians 5:11-13).
(a) why is the disfellowshipping arrangement a loving one?
20 the disfellowshipping arrangement is really a loving provision from jehovah.
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LUKEWARM
*** lv chap. 3, Love Those Whom God Loves ***
WHEN DIFFICULTIES ARISE
Q16, 17. If a fellow worshipper hurts us in some way, why should we not withdraw from the congregation?16 Since there is a wide variety of personalities and backgrounds in the congregation, problems may arise from time to time. A fellow believer might say or do something that hurts our feelings. (Proverbs 12:18) Sometimes difficulties are fuelled by personality clashes, misunderstandings, or differences of opinion. Will we stumble over such challenges and keep away from the congregation? Not if we have genuine love for Jehovah and for those whom he loves.
Where does the Bible say that "genuine love for Jehovah" is evident by one not keeping away from the JW version of the 21century congregation and their 2 weekly meetings + 8 hours a month in 'service'?17 As our Creator and Life-Sustainer, Jehovah deserves our love and complete devotion. (Revelation 4:11) In addition, the congregation that he is pleased to use deserves our loyal support. (Hebrews 13:17) So if a fellow worshipper hurts us or disappoints us in some way, we will not withdraw from the congregation as a means of protest. How could we? Jehovah is not the one who offended us. Our love for Jehovah could never allow us to turn our back on him and his people!-Psalm 119:165.
WTS again assuming to know Gods thoughts with this one: "...the congregation that he is pleased to use deserves our loyal support."Was Paul in Hebrews really talking about the JW congregation with its elders appointed by a centralised Governing Body in Brooklyn?How can it possibly be that withdrawing from their congregation is turning our back on God himself?Are "his people" only JW's? Q18. (a) What can we do to promote peace in the congregation? (b) Choosing to forgive when there is a sound basis for doing so brings what blessings?18 Love for fellow worshippers moves us to promote peace in the congregation. Jehovah does not expect perfection from those he loves, and neither should we. Love enables us to overlook minor trespasses, remembering that we are all imperfect and make mistakes. (Proverbs 17:9; 1 Peter 4:8) Love helps us to continue "forgiving one another freely." (Colossians 3:13) It is not always easy to apply this counsel. If we allow negative emotions to get the better of us, we may be inclined to hold on to resentment, perhaps feeling that our anger is somehow punishing the offender. In reality, though, holding on to resentment is harmful to us. Choosing to forgive when there is a sound basis for doing so brings rich blessings. (Luke 17:3, 4) It gives us peace of mind and heart, preserves peace in the congregation and, above all, safeguards our relationship with Jehovah.-Matthew 6:14, 15; Romans 14:19.
Why does the WTS always talk about "Love for fellow worshippers"?
Didn't Jesus say:
43 "YOU heard that it was said, 'You must love your neighbor and hate your enemy.' 44 However, I say to YOU: Continue to love YOUR enemies and to pray for those persecuting YOU; 45 that YOU may prove yourselves sons of YOUR Father who is in the heavens, since he makes his sun rise upon wicked people and good and makes it rain upon righteous people and unrighteous. 46 For if YOU love those loving YOU, what reward do YOU have? Are not also the tax collectors doing the same thing? 47 And if YOU greet YOUR brothers only, what extraordinary thing are YOU doing? Are not also the people of the nations doing the same thing? 48 YOU must accordingly be perfect, as YOUR heavenly Father is perfect. (Matthew 5:43-48)
WHEN TO WITHDRAW FELLOWSHIP
Q19. What situations may arise that make it necessary for us to withdraw our fellowship from someone?19 At times, we are called upon to withdraw our fellowship from one who has been a member of the congregation. This situation arises when an individual who unrepentantly violates God's law is disfellowshipped or when one rejects the faith by teaching false doctrine or by disassociating himself from the congregation. God's Word plainly tells us to "quit mixing in company" with such ones. (1 Corinthians 5:11-13;) It may be a real challenge to avoid someone who had perhaps been a friend or who is related to us. Will we take a firm stand, thereby showing that we put loyalty to Jehovah and his righteous laws above all else? Remember that Jehovah places a high value on loyalty and obedience.
Who calls upon us to withdraw fellowship, on what basis is someone judged "unrepentant" and where is the Biblical precedent for a CLOSED DOOR judicial committee decision?
Ray Franz in his book "In search of Christian Freedom" p.324 says:
In praising the provision in the US constitution for an accused person to "enjoy the right to a speedy and public trial...to be informed of the nature and cause of the accusation; to be confronted with the witnesses against him" the Awake! Magazine of January 22, 1981 (page 17), went on to demonstrate that Justice in the Nation of Israel employed these same principles, stating*** g81 1/22 p. 17 Searching Out Legal Roots ***
Since the local court was situated at the city gates, there was no question about the trial being public! (Deut. 16:18-20) No doubt the public trials helped influence the judges toward carefulness and justice, qualities that sometimes vanish in secret star-chamber hearings. What about witnesses? Witnesses in Bible times were required to testify publicly. For this reason they were warned not to be influenced in their testimony by the pressure of public opinion "so as to turn aside with the crowd in order to pervert justice."Although, when convenient, the Watch Tower organization frequently goes back to the Mosaic Law and law procedures for support for its policies, it acts exactly contrary to the principles here presented. Though it praises the influence toward "carefulness and justice" that public hearings produce, the reality is that all Witness "judicial committee" hearings are, by organizational policy, held precisely in the form of "secret-star chamber hearings," with the result that the committee is, in effect answerable only to itself. The validity of its announced decisions must be accepted purely on faith by the congregation.So adherence to WTS's "righteous laws" equate to "loyalty and obedience" to God!The WT are masters at "twisting" scriptures to suit their agendaApostle Paul was NOT talking about persons claiming to be Christians who have AT SOME TIME been guilty of of an act or acts of immorality, greed, drunkenness or similar wrongdoing, rather persons claiming to be Christians who ARE immoral, who ARE greedy, who ARE drunkards etc. Getting drunk on one occasion does not make one "a drunkard" and in the same way an act of immorality does not automatically make one "a fornicator" or "immoral person". He is taliking about a continuing course of conduct or a characteristic of a person."But now I am writing YOU to quit mixing in company with anyone called a brother that is a fornicator or a greedy person or an idolater or a reviler or a drunkard or an extortioner, not even eating with such a man. 12 For what do I have to do with judging those outside? Do YOU not judge those inside, 13 while God judges those outside? "Remove the wicked [man] from among yourselves." (1 Corinthians 5:11-13)
So if somebody disagrees with 607, blood policy, 144,000 etc are they rejecting "the faith by teaching false doctrine" and are they WICKED? Surely they cannot be saying so as the context is referring to the ANTICHRIST not someone not believing some unique teaching taught by WTS as "present truth".
"Everyone that pushes ahead and does not remain in the teaching of the Christ does not have God. He that does remain in this teaching is the one that has both the Father and the Son. 10 If anyone comes to YOU and does not bring this teaching, never receive him into YOUR homes or say a greeting to him. 11 For he that says a greeting to him is a sharer in his wicked works." (2 John 9-11).Q20, 21. (a) Why is the disfellowshipping arrangement a loving one? (b) Why is it vital that we choose our associates wisely?20 The disfellowshipping arrangement is really a loving provision from Jehovah. How so? Expelling an unrepentant sinner shows love for Jehovah's holy name and all that it stands for. (1 Peter 1:15, 16) Disfellowshipping keeps the congregation safe. Faithful members are protected from the unwholesome influence of willful sinners and can go about their worship knowing that the congregation is a safe haven from this wicked world. (1 Corinthians 5:7; Hebrews 12:15, 16) The strong discipline shows love for the wrongdoer. It may be just the jolt he needs to come to his senses and take the steps necessary to return to Jehovah.-Hebrews 12:11.
WT spin doctoring at its best: "The disfellowshipping arrangement is really a loving provision from Jehovah"!Why are members denied any right to exercise their own intelligence and judgement as to whether a person is a "unwholesome influence"? Why must they wait for some religious authority to lift the "disfellowshiped" label?Can you imaging the father of the prodigal son, upon seeing his wayward son approaching the home, rather than running out and embracing him as he did, insting that the son first be screened by a committee of three before expressing parental interest and affection?This sentence makes me ill and reeks of control of thought and action "The strong discipline shows love for the wrongdoer. It may be just the jolt he needs to come to his senses and take the steps necessary to return to Jehovah21 We cannot escape the fact that our close associates can have a powerful, molding effect on us. It is vital, then, that we choose our associates wisely. By making Jehovah's friends our friends, by loving those whom God loves, we will surround ourselves with the best possible associates. What we absorb from them will help us to live up to our determination to please Jehovah.
APPENDIX - HOW TO TREAT A DISFELLOWSHIPPED PERSON
Few things can hurt us more deeply than the pain we suffer when a relative or a close friend is expelled from the congregation for unrepentant sin. How we respond to the Bible's direction on this matter can reveal the depth of our love for God and of our loyalty to his arrangement. Consider some questions that arise on this subject.
[Footnote] Bible principles on this subject apply equally to those who disassociate themselves from the congregation.
How should we treat a disfellowshipped person? The Bible says: "Quit mixing in company with anyone called a brother that is a fornicator or a greedy person or an idolater or a reviler or a drunkard or an extortioner, not even eating with such a man." (1 Corinthians 5:11) Regarding everyone that "does not remain in the teaching of the Christ," we read: "Never receive him into your homes or say a greeting to him. For he that says a greeting to him is a sharer in his wicked works." (2 John 9-11) We do not have spiritual or social fellowship with disfellowshipped ones. The Watchtower of September 15, 1981, page 25, stated: "A simple 'Hello' to someone can be the first step that develops into a conversation and maybe even a friendship. Would we want to take that first step with a disfellowshiped person?"
Is strict avoidance really necessary? Yes, for several reasons. First, it is a matter of loyalty to God and his Word. We obey Jehovah not only when it is convenient but also when doing so presents real challenges. Love for God moves us to obey all his commandments, recognizing that he is just and loving and that his laws promote the greatest good. (Isaiah 48:17; 1 John 5:3) Second, withdrawing from an unrepentant wrongdoer protects us and the rest of the congregation from spiritual and moral contamination and upholds the congregation's good name. (1 Corinthians 5:6, 7) Third, our firm stand for Bible principles may even benefit the disfellowshipped one. By supporting the decision of the judicial committee, we may touch the heart of a wrongdoer who thus far has failed to respond to the efforts of the elders to assist him. Losing precious fellowship with loved ones may help him to come "to his senses," see the seriousness of his wrong, and take steps to return to Jehovah.-Luke 15:17.
What if a relative is disfellowshipped? In such a case, the close bond between family members can pose a real test of loyalty. How should we treat a disfellowshipped relative? We cannot here cover every situation that may arise, but let us focus on two basic ones.
In some instances, the disfellowshipped family member may still be living in the same home as part of the immediate household. Since his being disfellowshipped does not sever the family ties, normal day-to-day family activities and dealings may continue. Yet, by his course, the individual has chosen to break the spiritual bond between him and his believing family. So loyal family members can no longer have spiritual fellowship with him. For example, if the disfellowshipped one is present, he would not participate when the family gets together to study the Bible. However, if the disfellowshipped one is a minor child, the parents are still responsible to instruct and discipline him. Hence, loving parents may arrange to conduct a Bible study with the child.-Proverbs 6:20-22; 29:17.
[Footnote] For more information about disfellowshipped minor children living in the home, see The Watchtower of October 1, 2001, pages 16-17, and November 15, 1988, page 20.
In other cases, the disfellowshipped relative may be living outside the immediate family circle and home. Although there might be a need for limited contact on some rare occasion to care for a necessary family matter, any such contact should be kept to a minimum. Loyal Christian family members do not look for excuses to have dealings with a disfellowshipped relative not living at home. Rather, loyalty to Jehovah and his organization moves them to uphold the Scriptural arrangement of disfellowshipping. Their loyal course has the best interests of the wrongdoer at heart and may help him to benefit from the discipline received.-Hebrews 12:11.
[Footnote] For more information about how to treat disfellowshipped relatives, see the Scriptural counsel discussed in The Watchtower of April 15, 1988, pages 26-31, and September 15, 1981, pages 26-31.Lukewarm
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Blondie's Comments You Will Not Hear at the 04-05-09 WT Study (PIERCED)
by blondie in11-12 par.
*** w56 3/1 p. 145 par.
*** w95 5/15 p. 25 par.
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LUKEWARM
Thanks Blondie!!
I always look forward to your comments and the research you put up - Thanks again!!
(1) "Isaiah foretold the Servant's sufferings and provided specific details about Christ's death and about the blessings his death would result in for his anointed brothers and his "other sheep."--John 10:16."
Incredible - they presuppose that Isaiah's writings mirror their interpretation of "anointed" and "other sheep"!(3) The apostle Peter told the Jews: "The God of our forefathers ... has glorified his Servant, Jesus, whom you, for your part, delivered up and disowned before Pilate's face, when he had decided to release him. Yes, you disowned that holy and righteous one." --Acts 3: 13,14
Why did the Apostle Peter use "God" instead of "Jehovah"?
(12) Jesus himself stated: "God loved the world so much that he gave his only-begotten Son, in order that everyone exercising faith in him might not be destroyed but have everlasting life." (John 3:16) The apostle Paul wrote: "God recommends his own love to us in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us." (Rom 5:8)
Why did Jesus use "God" instead of "Jehovah" here?
The apostle Paul when talking to believers uses "God" instead of "Jehovah" - how would a JW be viewed if he did the same?
(17) The zeal he showed in preaching the Kingdom, as "a light of the nations," is a reminder to his followers to preach the good news zealously throughout the earth.--Isa.42:6.
Are JW's preaching the same message as Jesus? -
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April 15th WT- Satan = Apostates = Critical Towards Brothers = Shun Them
by flipper inwow.
and so the wt society tightens down the screwdriver a bit more !
one of my wife and my lurking jw friends sent us this article which has some very pointed words in it inciting all jehovah's witnesses to take an even harder line view of apostates in this recent april 15th wt.. on pg.
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LUKEWARM
Why do they never elaborate as to what "apostates" disagree with?
"Truth" should be able to stand up to anything thrown up against it.
Rather than display genuine humility and discuss the issues, the hierarchy resembles the Pharisees in arrogantly directing its membership to "avoid all contact with them!"
Are they really following Jesus?
"YOU heard that it was said, You must love your neighbor and hate your enemy. However, I say to YOU: Continue to love YOUR enemies and to pray for those persecuting YOU; that YOU may prove yourselves sons of YOUR Father who is in the heavens, since he makes his sun rise upon wicked people and good and makes it rain upon righteous people and unrighteous. For if YOU love those loving YOU, what reward do YOU have? Are not also the tax collectors doing the same thing? And if YOU greet YOUR brothers only, what extraordinary thing are YOU doing? Are not also the people of the nations doing the same thing? YOU must accordingly be perfect, as YOUR heavenly Father is perfect. Matt 5:43-48