Not sure if you noticed the excerpt from In Search of Christian Freedom, Chapter 9, published by Commentary Press. on the above link. Its a true gem!
LUKEWARM
JoinedPosts by LUKEWARM
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Blood Fraction or Blood Transfusion- Are they same?
by Scott77 inwhen the bible states to 'obstain from blood', does it indicates a whole blood product or just part of blood as blood fraction?
please, how are we going to interpret this contradiction on the part of the watchtower bilble and tract society of new york?
another related questions: when the bilble commands us to obtain from blood, is this for a religious reason as opposed to medical need?
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Advice please: Would you loan your copy of Crisis of Conscience to your JW friends or create awareness/curiosity about its existence?
by LUKEWARM inabout 12 months ago i ordered the book.
i thought i was sinning against god - showing a lack of faith in him and in his organization.
i prayed to jah to forgive me but i was curious as to why a person, who spent over 50 years in full time service, was of the anointed and served on the governing body left "gods organization".
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LUKEWARM
undercoverThanks for the advice - the people I have in mind are 3 families we are close with but the risk is always there that it is leaked to the elders...
MikeMustoHahaaaaaa - Bet they done expect that one! Perhaps I should use that one too...
leavingwtIn my case I was not aware of the history of the WTS and its failed prophecies - after spending time here and reading both of Rays books, it struck me immediately that they are not "directed".
However, we are all different and I have heard so much about Hassan so I will definitely purchase both of his books as I seek the best way to get my friends to see the real truth
Looking forward to, as you put it, exploring an entire field of knowledge I am unaware of.
Thanks for your assistance and advice -
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Excuse me, but this is sickening (DA Contributions)
by winstonchurchill ina letter from the wts was just read to our congregation: during upcoming district assemblies, there will be credit card terminal available so people can donate using their credit/debit cards.. maybe it's old news, but i just found out last monday, and i find it terribly disturbing.
the wts/jw's is becoming more and more mainstream, not different at all form those churches that are only after your money... oh, wait!
maybe tey are only after our money.. .
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LUKEWARM
Unbelievable winstonchurchill – was the letter posted on the notice board and can you post more of its contents?
Cash is king!
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Advice please: Would you loan your copy of Crisis of Conscience to your JW friends or create awareness/curiosity about its existence?
by LUKEWARM inabout 12 months ago i ordered the book.
i thought i was sinning against god - showing a lack of faith in him and in his organization.
i prayed to jah to forgive me but i was curious as to why a person, who spent over 50 years in full time service, was of the anointed and served on the governing body left "gods organization".
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LUKEWARM
Appreciate your comments thomas15,
Laughed at your comment about the book having the potential to "probably cause a brain explosion"! This is so true in the case of a JW who has not been exposed to the real issues as the WTS always just demonises apostates - they never elaborate what the disagreements with their teachings are so this breeds fear and ignorance.
You are right "it comes down to either the Truth of the Bible or the truth of the WT. The two truths are not in agreement" - getting a JW to educate themselves about where the scriptures deviate from the WTS teaching is the problem as they have been convinced that they don't understand the Bible and that Jah has set up "His Organization" to provide understanding.
I have reasoned with some that the things that are important are plainly stated by Jesus for Christians in the Bible - they require no interpretation - why would God have provided the book if the critical things are convoluted requiring some interpretation by imperfect humans? The things that are unclear (like Revelation) must not be that important for us otherwise it would have been made clear... -
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Drama Topic for 2009 DC. Here's the scoop.
by Open mind inooh, ooh.
who wants to know what the drama's about?.
om.
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LUKEWARM
Thanks OM
I wonder what 'spin' they will put on this ”prodigal son" drama considering their policies are so far removed from the compassion Jesus taught -
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Advice please: Would you loan your copy of Crisis of Conscience to your JW friends or create awareness/curiosity about its existence?
by LUKEWARM inabout 12 months ago i ordered the book.
i thought i was sinning against god - showing a lack of faith in him and in his organization.
i prayed to jah to forgive me but i was curious as to why a person, who spent over 50 years in full time service, was of the anointed and served on the governing body left "gods organization".
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LUKEWARM
Sorry, this one might be a little easier to read...
BabaYaga
Thank you for your words of wisdom – you have summed up my situation nicely!
Yes, it worries me that my passion about the newly found truths will alienate them. I want to free them from the unnecessary slavery to a human organization which has gone “beyond the things written” and imposed “traditions of men” on its membership under the guise of “Jah’s Theocratic Law”.
So far, I have given “Crisis” and “Christian Freedom” to one close friend (Elder) recently. His eyes have been opened reading the first book – he can no longer parrot the WT line and is now questioning what to believe. We have had numerous discussions - I tell him the second book (still in the closet) will crystallise everything for him beyond reasonable doubt. He tells me he will get around to reading it but I sense the uneasiness as he comes to terms with the gravity of the real truth sets in and he faces his own crossroads.
Thanks for suggesting I investigate cognitive dissonance and the Hassan book as I want to help other friends and I need all the help I can get!
leavingwt
Your comments are interesting about the org being one part of the equation - the mind control is the other part. I guess my focus has been on doctrine and the org as I assumed the other part would naturally follow…
Have heard about Hassan but have not got around to purchasing his material. I understand he has written 2 books. Do you recommend I read both?
Black Sheep
I feel sorry for them – they are brainwashed as I once was, so am trying to keep talking, posing questions, and providing snippets of research which they can process. As you rightfully indicate, once somebody is viewed as “spiritually weak” or is in the process of fading, the things said no longer carry any weight…
purplesofa
Thank you for your comments and well done on your progress!
Can you elaborate more on how you have made/introduced all those placements and what the results have been?
You are right that it would be inappropriate to push my view on others. My objective here is to tactfully arouse their curiosity and interest about the real truth and as such to educate themselves about the issues. What they choose to do after that is their prerogative.
My approach has been to introduce something that “I found interesting” and telling them that “I would be interested in their thoughts” – even to correct me if they feel my thinking is wrong…
Your caution is warranted though…
garybuss
You are a Meany J
Jabberwocky
Good thinking and it would be appropriate to have this in a library, although I was thinking of capitalising on friendship and reputation to assist my immediate friends and those I care for to see the truth while we are still around…
Your suggestion about the 2 chapters of “crisis” available online are good! And the PDF version is a possible progression depending on their reaction to read the free stuff first – thank you!
Jamiebowers
I’m sorry to hear of your situation and I wish I could help your mum! Seems like the Hassan book is valuable – will look to buy it before we go on holidays so I can read it thoroughly, educate myself and apply the methodology. What avenues did you think would work on your mum?
Bizzybee
Thank your lovely response and compliments! You use the word “envy” but sometimes I feel selfish for holding back – in this instance worrying about being disfellowshipped if the weakest link seeks the help of the elders due to a troubled conscience resulting from my “placement”.
Yes, these are people the Mrs and I are close with and they feel free to express themselves in our company considering we are liberal in the way we talk about the JW treadmill of activity eg “oh another boring service meeting and they never finish on time”
The “ham and eggs” analogy is a good one as its always difficult to play those damn cards right or if they should be played at all! MidwichCuckoo
You are spot on! I only became aware of Ray Franz on this site – they have no idea that he exists and his style of writing is dignified and powerful…
JWdaughter
Thank you for your post and good suggestions!
I wonder if they would order the book if left to their own devices – yeah in 10 years when they are exhausted from being on the organizational treadmill they might remember our conversations and investigate…
I know what a huge barrier it was for me to purchase the book considering I viewed it as “apostate”! But I figured the “truth” should and can stand up to anything. How wrong I was!!
As you say, it’s a fine line between giving them this info and getting myself DF’d…
Agh, I would hate for it to blow up but at the same time if my friend had this info and did not share it with me because of the potential cost to him/her personally then how selfish and uncaring would that be!!
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Advice please: Would you loan your copy of Crisis of Conscience to your JW friends or create awareness/curiosity about its existence?
by LUKEWARM inabout 12 months ago i ordered the book.
i thought i was sinning against god - showing a lack of faith in him and in his organization.
i prayed to jah to forgive me but i was curious as to why a person, who spent over 50 years in full time service, was of the anointed and served on the governing body left "gods organization".
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LUKEWARM
BabaYagaThank you for your words of wisdom - you have summed up my situation nicely!
Yes, it worries me that my passion about the newly found truths will alienate them. I want to free them from the unnecessary slavery to a human organization which has gone "beyond the things written" and imposed "traditions of men" on its membership under the guise of "Jah's Theocratic Law".
So far, I have given "Crisis" and "Christian Freedom" to one close friend (Elder) recently. His eyes have been opened reading the first book - he can no longer parrot the WT line and is now questioning what to believe. We have had numerous discussions - I tell him the second book (still in the closet) will crystallise everything for him beyond reasonable doubt. He tells me he will get around to reading it but I sense the uneasiness as he comes to terms with the gravity of the real truth sets in and he faces his own crossroads.
Thanks for suggesting I investigate cognitive dissonance and the Hassan book as I want to help other friends and I need all the help I can get!
leavingwtYour comments are interesting about the org being one part of the equation - the mind control is the other part. I guess my focus has been on doctrine and the org as I assumed the other part would naturally follow...
Have heard about Hassan but have not got around to purchasing his material. I understand he has written 2 books. Do you recommend I read both?
Black SheepI feel sorry for them - they are brainwashed as I once was, so am trying to keep talking, posing questions, and providing snippets of research which they can process. As you rightfully indicate, once somebody is viewed as "spiritually weak" or is in the process of fading, the things said no longer carry any weight...
purplesofaThank you for your comments and well done on your progress!
Can you elaborate more on how you have made/introduced all those placements and what the results have been?
You are right that it would be inappropriate to push my view on others. My objective here is to tactfully arouse their curiosity and interest about the real truth and as such to educate themselves about the issues. What they choose to do after that is their prerogative.
My approach has been to introduce something that "I found interesting" and telling them that "I would be interested in their thoughts" - even to correct me if they feel my thinking is wrong...
Your caution is warranted though...
garybussYou are a Meany :)
JabberwockyGood thinking and it would be appropriate to have this in a library, although I was thinking of capitalising on friendship and reputation to assist my immediate friends and those I care for to see the truth while we are still around...
Your suggestion about the 2 chapters of "crisis" available online are good! And the PDF version is a possible progression depending on their reaction to read the free stuff first - thank you!
JamiebowersI'm sorry to hear of your situation and I wish I could help your mum! Seems like the Hassan book is valuable - will look to buy it before we go on holidays so I can read it thoroughly, educate myself and apply the methodology. What avenues did you think would work on your mum?
BizzybeeThank your lovely response and compliments! You use the word "envy" but sometimes I feel selfish for holding back - in this instance worrying about being disfellowshipped if the weakest link seeks the help of the elders due to a troubled conscience resulting from my "placement".
Yes, these are people the Mrs and I are close with and they feel free to express themselves in our company considering we are liberal in the way we talk about the JW treadmill of activity eg "oh another boring service meeting and they never finish on time"
The "ham and eggs" analogy is a good one as its always difficult to play those damn cards right or if they should be played at all!
MidwichCuckooYou are spot on! I only became aware of Ray Franz on this site - they have no idea that he exists and his style of writing is dignified and powerful...
JWdaughterThank you for your post and good suggestions!
I wonder if they would order the book if left to their own devices - yeah in 10 years when they are exhausted from being on the organizational treadmill they might remember our conversations and investigate...
I know what a huge barrier it was for me to purchase the book considering I viewed it as "apostate"! But I figured the "truth" should and can stand up to anything. How wrong I was!!
As you say, it's a fine line between giving them this info and getting myself DF'd...
Agh, I would hate for it to blow up but at the same time if my friend had this info and did not share it with me because of the potential cost to him/her personally then how selfish and uncaring would that be!! -
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Advice please: Would you loan your copy of Crisis of Conscience to your JW friends or create awareness/curiosity about its existence?
by LUKEWARM inabout 12 months ago i ordered the book.
i thought i was sinning against god - showing a lack of faith in him and in his organization.
i prayed to jah to forgive me but i was curious as to why a person, who spent over 50 years in full time service, was of the anointed and served on the governing body left "gods organization".
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LUKEWARM
About 12 months ago I ordered the book. I thought I was sinning against God - showing a lack of faith in Him and in his organization. I prayed to Jah to forgive me but I was curious as to why a person, who spent over 50 years in full time service, was of the anointed and served on the governing body left "Gods Organization". Well what a shock I was in for!
Mrs Lukewarm and I are still active JW's (family reasons), mentally disconnected from the religion and are becoming increasingly indifferent about the treadmill of works the organization prescribes.
As our decision comes to the pointy end, I have been thinking about the many friends we have in the "truth". I want to help them become aware of the real "truth" while we are still around as they wont be as receptive when we start to fade...
I find that asking questions starts them on the road of thinking for themselves instead of the 'Boys in Writing' doing all their thinking for them.
We have liberal discussions, and as we have all been raised in the "truth" they readily acknowledge that they would probably never have become witnesses if exposed to JW via the preaching work as adults.
Been using the watchtower recently (sometimes during or right after the meeting or sending them SMS or email) asking my friends something like: Did you notice XYZ in paragraph 11? How did they come up with that when the Bible says ABC...
There is so much to talk to them about and I am using every opportunity to tactfully introduce some truth about the "truth" I have meditated on, comparing it to the Bible. They listen, process the information and agree with what I am saying.
Conversation starters:
Organ transplants - people died for what when they were banned in the 60's? Blood fractions - why ok to use donated blood and where did they come up with the approved fractions list?
Why is preaching work urgent when half of world's population is not being witnessed to? How will God judge these people? What is our 30 second presentation really achieving? Is God going to judge people on the basis of listening to our magazine presentation? Why are we preaching a different 'good news'?
"Generation" teaching - new light in 95 that it related not to 1914 but to wicked people living at a certain time, then in 2008 changed that to the "anointed"? Did God reveal error to them? How could they be wrong if they are directed?
Why do they stress works when bible says that salvation is gods GIFT through faith in Jesus? Will belonging to an organization save us or faith in Christ and living as best we can to please God?
Why do we need to report our "service" time to anyone - Didn't Jesus teach that worship is between the individual and God? etc etc...
They agree and realise that we would be in trouble if the "elders" found out about out discussions and say jokingly that we are "bad" and rebellious witnesses and that Jah will destroy us.
I want to stop the 'drip feeding' and introduce them to "Crisis of Conscience" as this will educate them about the issues better than I ever can and help them in making an informed decision about their own situation.
They are decent people who see the errors in the organization but are misled (as I once was) in believing they are in "Gods organization". The book will shatter that illusion for them just as it did for me.
My worry is, if I loan them my copy of the book and it results in a troubled conscience or marital problems because one partner is more attached to the organization and go to the elders for help, I may be implicated as the provider of the material and face judicial action which I do not want.
Is it better to arouse their curiosity by stating that I have become aware that a governing body member has left the organization after 50 years of service, was unfairly disfellowshipped and has since published a book which I want to read as it details what happened...hopefully they may do their own research and order the book!
Lukewarm -
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Congregation "Bible Study" Comments - Week Commencing 18 May 2009
by LUKEWARM in*** lv chap.
5 pp.
50-53 how to keep separate from the world ***.
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LUKEWARM
Interesting how freely you can use copywrited material in violation of ceasar's laws while bashing those who willingly submit to his laws regarding taxation, etc. The only thing we avoid is being "part of the world" If we don't pay taxes it's because ceasar's laws allow us not to. Besides what great witness is it to have your tax money spent on killing and plundering around the world anyway?
Michael, surely there is no infringement of copyright considering the source has been acknowledged and only 6 paragraphs are included not the whole book.
As far as taxation is concerned, you have a validly state that the WTS legitimately uses Ceaser's laws not to pay any tax and that some of the tax money collected is misused.
The point I was trying to make is that WTS do very little charitable activity/public service in comparison to other churches that are tax exempt. So since they do not contribute much to the community and generally to society, but avail themselves of all the services available, is it fair that they should they get tax breaks?We do show love for our enemies by witholding close association from those whose conduct denies a desire to live according to bible standards. Even Paul would not allow someone to be called a brother who was a fornicator, idolator...........Please explain....how is it loving to give tacit approval to harmful or self destructive behaviour?
Can you imaging the father of the prodigal son, upon seeing his wayward son approaching the home, rather than running out and embracing him as he did, insting that the son first be screened by a committee of three before expressing parental interest and affection?
You mention (1 Corinthians 5:11-13):
"But now I am writing YOU to quit mixing in company with anyone called a brother that is a fornicator or a greedy person or an idolater or a reviler or a drunkard or an extortioner, not even eating with such a man. 12 For what do I have to do with judging those outside? Do YOU not judge those inside, 13 while God judges those outside? "Remove the wicked [man] from among yourselves." The Apostle Paul was not talking about persons claiming to be Christians who have at some time been guilty of of an act or acts of immorality, greed, drunkenness or similar wrongdoing, rather persons claiming to be Christians who ARE immoral, who ARE greedy, who ARE drunkards etc. Getting drunk on one occasion does not make one "a drunkard" and in the same way an act of immorality does not automatically make one "a fornicator" or "immoral person". He is talking about a continuing course of conduct or a characteristic of a person.
The point is why are members denied any right to exercise their own intelligence and judgement as to whether a persons "conduct denies a desire to live according to bible standards"? Why must they wait for some religious authority to approve association with somebody? -
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Blondie's Comments You Will Not Hear at the 05-17-09 WT Study (VIGILANT)
by blondie inhttp://exjehovahswitnessforum.yuku.com.
http://www.jwsupportforum.com/index.php.
http://www.jehovahswitnessrecovery.com/.
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LUKEWARM
Excellent comments Blondie!
12. "It is his judgment against hypocritical religion that for so long has taught doctrines contrary to God's will..."Little does the WTS realise the judgement it will face for blasphemy as it has clearly gone "beyond the things written" and imposed "traditions of men" as burdens on their members