Posts by LUKEWARM

49

Shackled to the Watchtower: A distinction every Jehovah's Witness should acknowledge

by Nickolas in

jw
friends

if one was to take a poll of all the registered users of this board he might be surprised by the number of people who still attend meetings and/or still go door to door.

a contributor to a recent thread, expressing worry that she is on the threshold of being outed, posited that fear is what fills the seats in the kingdom hall.

fear, not love.

LUKEWARM

When I asked earlier how we can connect with JWs who have doubts, what I meant was how do we identify them?

If you start spreading non-WT questions or teachings indiscriminately at the KH, you'll be outed and ostracized so fast you won't have time to connect with the people who are really open.

IMHO seek opportunities to introduce thoughts - don’t challenge them in any way just make the conversation about you – but time is the issue and the lack of motivation to be on the worthless JW treadmill of works seeking these opportunities… Here is what has worked a treat for me: (1) Be known as a reasonable and open minded individual. Don’t come across as “this is right and this is wrong” kind of thinking. You’re a person that understands that there are plenty shades of grey

(2) Have several one on one conversations with individuals to identify where there head space is at – in the process make people feel comfortable in your presence – dignify them, seek their opinions etc

(3) After several conversations, create an opportunity to introduce a thought or 2 from that “householder or relative who asked you a question”, a question you were embarrassed with as you had no answer for - eg they asked you" "were you not preaching a few years ago that the 1914 generation wont die out before the end" or "why was your organization involved with the UN?" etc

(4) Tell them you then did research on the subject and ….(in the case of the UN, the matter checks out on the UN website, on the generations our thinking has changed 5 times already…)

(5) Let them know that you enjoy when people challenge your thinking because over time you have needed to change the way you think to become more “balanced”.

(6) See where the conversation goes – and if they open up with anything. Seek to build on that next time around…

(7) Patience is a must as they can only take small doses of this stuff. Resist your eagerness to share learning's and convey information too quickly which has the propensity to backfire. Taking things slowly is the key - but there are no guarantees (8) It takes many different subtle comments over a long period of time to chip away at the mind control and encourage Witnesses to think for themselves and stop just parroting the official WTS line. Once they are in a position to do so, then material can be introduced that can educate and truly liberate them... The ones I talk to see many of the issues but all the negatives have not stacked up yet for them to view the organization as useless.

Its impossible to convince others - they will have to make that voyage of discovery themselves - and this is where I feel I can assist to provide info that I found interesting. I'm hoping that this information can help to accelerate their learnings and awareness so they can make informed decissions...

.

60

December AWAKE entitled: The Truth About Christmas

by AwSnap in

jw
friends

i just found an envelope outside my door.

as i picked it up, it felt a little heavy.

inside, there is an awake, and print-out, and a hand written note:.

LUKEWARM

-

Some good points highlighted in this thread regarding a response. Here a a few quotes that may be useful too:

Could a Christian celebrate 25 December as the conception of Jesus? Notice Russel's view on the matter:

"...we could not be certain that the exact day might not be in September about the 27th, but October 1st, B.C. is about correct. Nine months back of that date would bring us to about Christmas time, 3 B.C., as the date at which our Lord laid aside the glory which he had with the Father before the world was made and the taking of or changing to human nature began. It seems probable that this was the origin of the celebration of December 25th as Christmas Day. Some writers on Church history claim, even, that Christmas Day was originally celebrated as the date of the annunciation by Gabriel to the virgin Mary." (The Time is at Hand, Vol. 2 of The Studies in the Scriptures, p61)

Does it matter that December 25 is not the birth date of Jesus? Note the reasonableness that Russell displayed:

"Christmas Day, in celebration of our dear Redeemer's birth, has for centuries been celebrated on Dec. 25; and although it is now well known that this date is in error...nevertheless, since the Lord has given no instructions whatever upon this subject, and since it is proper to do good deeds and think good thoughts upon any day, it cannot be improper, ...for us to remember in a social way our dear Redeemer's birth at this time."(Zion's WT, Dec. 15, 1898-pg.370)

"..we may properly enough join with all whose hearts are in the attitude of love and appreciation toward God and toward the Saviour." (Zion's WT, Dec 15, 1903)"Even though Christmas is not the real anniversary of our Lord's birth, but more properly the annunciation day or the date of his human begetting (Luke 1:28), nevertheless, since the celebration of our Lord's birth is not a matter of divine appointment or injunction, but merely a tribute of respect to him, it is not necessary for us to quibble particularly about the date. We may as well join with the civilized world in celebrating the grand event on the day which the majority celebrate - "Christmas day."" Zion's Watch Tower 1904 December 1 p.364 "It matters not particularly that Dec. 25 is not the anniversary of our Lord's birth, according to the Scriptural account; that really He was born about September 25, nine months later. One day, as well as another, will serve us to commemorate our Savior's birth in the flesh, as a gift of God's love to a condemned and dying world."(Zion's WT, Dec. 15, 1908-pg.379).

So the point is not about "ancient pagan festivals", or that it was not the actual birth date of Jesus but when the Scriptures are silent on a matter, then it should be left up to an individual's conscience to decide - something the WTS denies its membership

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54

WTS: creative days took aeons - WT Feb 15th, 2011

by undercover in

there's already a couple of threads discussing this particular issue of kool-aid version of the wt, but i just had to start another after reading about the creative days mentioned in this issue.. we debate from time to time if the wts has ever officially retracted their doctrine that the earth and all things created are less than 50,000 years old.

there's been some quotes that show them waffling on the age of the planet itself but still sort of holding to the notion of all creation happening within a defineable 7 day period.

how long is a creative day?

LUKEWARM

Hi Listener

There isn't a year stated against the publications you quoted from but it would seem that the org hasn't been claiming each day is 7.000 years long for many years now.

Sorry about the formatting - the years are the first 2 digits listed after ***

So, last quote posted becomes W87 1/1 p.30...

.

54

WTS: creative days took aeons - WT Feb 15th, 2011

by undercover in

there's already a couple of threads discussing this particular issue of kool-aid version of the wt, but i just had to start another after reading about the creative days mentioned in this issue.. we debate from time to time if the wts has ever officially retracted their doctrine that the earth and all things created are less than 50,000 years old.

there's been some quotes that show them waffling on the age of the planet itself but still sort of holding to the notion of all creation happening within a defineable 7 day period.

how long is a creative day?

LUKEWARM

Is this another flip-flop from the goons that told us to preach that "The Bible indicates that Jehovah created the heavens and the earth in six days, each 7,000 years in length"?

***w511/1p.27TheChristian'sSabbath***Then the days mentioned in Genesis chapter 1 were not 24 hours long? No; remember that the sun did not shine upon the earth until the fourth day and it is the sun that gives us the 24-hour day. Besides, from such sciences as geology it appears that both plant and animal life have been on this earth far more than 6,000 years. Note too that the entire period of creation is referred to as "the day that Jehovah God made earth and heaven". (Gen. 2:4, AS) A day in the Bible is not always 24 hours long; 7,000 years for each of the creative days as well as the rest day is consistent with the Scriptures.-2 Pet. 3:8.

***w548/1ThePurposeofYourWitnessing***[Footnotes]Each creative day was 7,000 years in length. See "NewHeavensandaNewEarth", pages 40-43

***w552/1p.95QuestionsFromReaders***According to Genesis 1:24-31 Adam was created during the last part of the sixth creative-day period of 7,000 years.

***w616/15pp.378-379TheSeventhDay-ASabbathofRest***Thus we see God's use of the perfect number seven. The creative week consisted of seven days that were made up, not merely of hours, but of 7,000 years each. This means that each creative day was, within itself, a week of 1,000-year days.

***w638/1p.460par.14ReligionandtheNuclearAge*** 14 We could continue verse by verse through the entire period of the six creative days, periods of time that other Bible passages show to have been each 7,000 years in length
***w677/15p.427par.5FestivalsofPraisetoJehovah***The Bible indicates that Jehovah created the heavens and the earth in six days, each 7,000 years in length

***w685/1p.268par.17UnderstandingTimeaHelptoTrueWorshipers***This refers to the creative periods of time, each of which, judging by the seventh, appears to be 7,000 years long.

***w702/15p.120TheDaysofCreationfromGod'sViewpoint***Thus we find the seventh "day" of the creative week to be seven thousand years long. On the basis of the length of the seventh "day" it is therefore reasonable to conclude that each of the other six "days" also was a period of 7,000 years. This length of time would be ample for all that the Bible tells us took place on each of the six days of creation.

***w7011/1p.645ItIsNotintheBible!***So, if the other six of this group of seven great creative "days" are as long as the last one, then each one must have been 7,000 years long!

***g8211/8p.7ScienceandtheBible***True, the account goes on to say that huge steps in the development of the earth took one day each. But, in the Bible, "day" can mean more than a twenty-four-hour period. It can mean a thousand years or even longer! (Genesis 2:4; Psalm 90:4) The Bible record, together with verifiable history, indicates that the seventh day of that creative week covers a period of 7,000 years. Hence, each of the six preceding "days" would be of the same length.

***g833/22p.15Evolution,Creation,orCreationism-WhichDoYouBelieve?***CreativedaysofGenesischapter1: "a first day," "a second day," and so forth, 7,000 years each.

***w871/1p.30QuestionsFromReaders***Second, a study of the fulfillment of Bible prophecy and of our location in the stream of time strongly indicate that each of the creative days (Genesis, chapter 1) is 7,000 years long. It is understood that Christ's reign of a thousand years will bring to a close God's 7,000-year 'rest day,' the last 'day' of the creative week. (Revelation 20:6; Genesis 2:2, 3) Based on this reasoning, the entire creative week would be 49,000 years long..

56

They keep pushing and pushing for the rank and file to do more and more. Dec 15 WT

by life is to short in

they are causing mental problems by pushing and pushing the ones in to do more and more and more.. the dec 15th wt on page 7 says .

"you have a document that needs a certain person's attention by the end of the day.

you mare it urgent!

LUKEWARM

.

What?

I thought the preaching prophecy has been fulfilled - didn't they tell us that 15 years ago?

*** w95 9/1 pp. 17-18 par. 17 Christian Witnesses for Divine Sovereignty ***Looking forward especially to our time, Jesus said: "This good news of the kingdom will be preached in all the inhabited earth for a witness to all the nations; and then the end will come." (Matthew 24:14; Mark 13:10) Has this prophecy been fulfilled? Indeed, it has.

And are they sure the last days started in 1914?

Creation (1927) p.293"Napoleon began this Egyptian campaign in 1798, finished it, and then returned to France on October 1, 1799. The campaign is briefly, yet graphically described in the prophecy, verses 40-44; and its being completed in 1799 marks, according to the prophet's own words, the beginning of "the time of the end....Twelve hundred and sixty years from 539 A.D. brings us to 1799, which is another proof that 1799 definitely marks the beginning of "the time of the end." This also shows that it is from the date 539 A.D. that the other prophetic days of Daniel must be counted."
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41

New Watchtower Quotes : Feel the Love and Anger and Deception

by brotherdan in

from the january 2011 kool aid edition wt:.

paragraph 8: "still, as a people,the chosen ones and their loyal companions will physically survive the end of apostate christendom by taking refuge in jehovah and his mountainlike organization.".

paragraph 9: "christendom deserves the coming destruction for contributing to the spiritual illiteracy common among churchgoers and for its manifest hatred of gods name.".

LUKEWARM

On the second article on overcoming trials it says this:

Paragraph 5: Consider the example of two of our sisters in Malawi. In an effort to get them to buy political party cards, a violent mob beat, stripped, and threatened to rape them. The mob lyingly told them that even the members of the Bethel family had obtained party cards. The sisters' response?
"We serve only Jehovah God. So if the brothers at the branch office have bought cards, that does not make any difference to us. We will not compromise, even if you kill us!" After taking that courageous stand, the sisters were released.

I thought the below penned in 1976 is a great Biblical rebuttal (excluding the 607 reference) to this garbage:

The scriptures are clear in their admonition for Christians to be in subjection to the superior authorities. Ro 13:l-4;Col 1:16;2:10; I Tl 2:1,2; Tit 3:1; I Pe 2:13.14; Pr 20:2 The Bible is not without its record of faithful men who served the superior authorities closely, some even becoming superior authorities. Examples are Moses, Joseph, Daniel and his three companions, Mordecai and the Christian "holy ones" of the household of Caesar. Php 4:22 Elisha even permitted Naaman to subject himself to the king of Assyria to the extent of aiding the king to bow to the false god Rlmmon. 2 Ki 5:18,19 If we take an unrighteous stand against the nations, not properly subjecting ourselves to them, and they persecute us, is this "righteous Christian persecution," or actually punishment from Jehovah and his ministers of wrath upon the ones practicing what is bad? Ro 13:1-4

Our brothers in Malawi are being persecuted because they will not purchase a party card. The superior authorities of Malawi attach no religious significance to the card but rather require the purchase of all who wish to be citizens. There is only one party in Malawi, and thus the party is Malawi. (Awake! 12-8-75:4, para 3) Has the superior authority of Malawi poked its finger in the eye of God by requiring this purchase in defiance of the directives of the Watchtower Bible and Tract Society? It is interesting that even Jesus' parents complied with Caesar in registering, even though the registration was used in part for conscription into the military. Lk 2:1-3; Aid, p. 1383 And Paul asserted his Roman citizenship. Acts 22:25

Brother Knorr and others at Bethel, readily sign passports which state: "I (e.g. N.H.Knorr) a citizen of the United States..." "Citizenship" in itself is political. Can countries force citizenship. Do the countries step on Jehovah's toes by so doing? Is it possible that we are stepping on His toes by not being in subjection? Might it be, looking at the Bible types, that the persecution in Malawi Is because of an unrighteous stand against God's superior authorities? Is the stand of the brothers in Malawi, obedience to God or to the Watchtower Society? The brothers readily carry WTBTS member cards. Is It any wonder our stand is viewed as political? Are our brothers laying down their lives for Jehovah or for Brooklyn? Did those in Jerusalem lay down their lives in 607 and 70 for Jehovah or their religious leaders? If one feels it is the dictate of Brooklyn that is resulting in the persecution and death of brothers, should we direct our letters of appeal to Malawi or to Brooklyn?

http://www.jehovahs-witness.net/watchtower/bible/176947/1/1976-Questions-By-Jehovahs-Witnesses

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12

Don't Forget Wikileaks!

by metatron in

jw
friends

in the midst of all this talk about copyright law and a cult's right to keep its 'secret' book off the internet, let's not forget wikileaks!.

they had the old elder's book, last i looked.. metatron.

LUKEWARM

The Wikileaks site is still down – I suspect it won’t take long for the book to be on there permanently

17

ks10-E p70 - Elders told NOT to involve themselves in what individuals do with regard to petty gambling solely for entertainment!

by LUKEWARM in

30. greed-gambling, extortion: (i cor.

5:10,11; 6:10; 1 tim.

3:8; it-1 pp.

LUKEWARM

If they consider that gambling then NO ONE should play the stock market, IMO that "could" be considered gambling. We all know the WTS has to dabble in the stock market.

Yeah, funny how there's nothing wrong with playing the stock market, but if one plays the lottery, then they are in the category of greedy and materialistic and could face a judicial committee unless they can convince the elders that its just "petty gambling solely for entertainment!"

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17

ks10-E p70 - Elders told NOT to involve themselves in what individuals do with regard to petty gambling solely for entertainment!

by LUKEWARM in

30. greed-gambling, extortion: (i cor.

5:10,11; 6:10; 1 tim.

3:8; it-1 pp.

LUKEWARM

30. Greed-gambling, extortion: (I Cor. 5:10,11; 6:10; 1 Tim. 3:8; it-1 pp. 789, 1005-1006; w891/15 p. 22) Christians should avoid gambling in all its various forms, including lotteries. (Isa. 65:11; g02 7/22 pp. 4-8; w89 7/15 p. 30; g82 7/8 pp. 25-27; g8111/22 p. 27) If a person makes a practice of gambling and after repeated counsel unrepentantly pursues a course of greediness, judicial action would be appropriate.-w80 9/1 pp. 29-30; w67 p. 356.

31. An individual continuing in employment directly involved with gambling or employment making him a clear accomplice or promoter of gambling would be subject to judicial action, usually after being allowed time, perhaps up to six months, to make the needed adjustments. (w95 5/15 p. 23 par. 11; km 9/76 pp. 3-6) In questionable cases it is best to consult with the branch office.

32. If a business gives out prizes or prize money to winners of a con test or to potential customers for advertising, accepting the gift is an individual's decision to make. However, a person needs to be careful that accepting such a prize does not stir up greed. (Rom. 14:21; 1 Cor. 10:31-33; g7S 7/8 p. 28; w73 p. 127) The elders do well not to involve themselves in what individuals do with regard to petty gambling solely for entertainment. They may need to give counsel if this becomes a cause of stumbling for others or affects the spirituality of the individual or the congregation.-w02 11/1 p. 3l.
So if a JW is caught gambling and can justify that the motivation is not greed but entertainment, they will probably get some counsel about how this may effect others bla bla bla but would avoid the judicial committee.

Seems the Pharisaic goons in Brooklyn have defined "petty gambling solely for entertainment" as NOT being a sin of greed!

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49

Questions From Readers - October 20th, 2010

by sd-7 in

jw
friends

why are jehovah's witnesses as a whole not permitted to read the elder's manual?.

on the first day of the unfermented cakes, well before his arrest and sacrificial death, jesus christ instructed his disciples on how to prepare for the passover.

when he did so, he did not provide advance, detailed instructions for all of his disciples; instead, he dispatched only two of them to find a suitable location, which he evidently had already planned with the householder.

LUKEWARM

You almost had me there SD-7!

Sounds exactly like somethig the boys in writting would come up with!