Transcript Of Judicial Committee Meeting Of Dale & Bette Baker

by Bangalore in

transcript of judicial committee meeting of dale & bette baker.. http://www.jehovahswitnessbooks.com/2010/03/judicial-committee-meeting-of-dale.html.

bangalore.

.

Bangalore

Elder J: Sometimes we hear statesmen call it World War I...

Dale: I know, they call it that, but it is not unique. However you bring up a very good point about population, and that really shoots down the whole composit sign idea, because of the fact that if you look at world population, h was about what, 300 million in the time of Christ? And it had gone up to about 600 some odd million in the 14th century, then it went back down to about 400 million. The 14th century was probably the worst century that the human race has ever survived. They had the black death, every 15 years, terrible famines, the hundred years war, Tamerlane who went all through Asia - I don't know if you've ever read any of that history, but world population actually decreased. And then about the 1700's I think it started up, and by 1830, I think, it reach the first billion, and then he's been going up ever since. It's been escalating ever since. Do you know the reason that can happen? Because wars, famines, and pestilence don't kill nearly as many people. Medical science, we've got food distribution, we've got agriculture that's finally efficient - there are a lot of factors involved, but those are the factors. Before we were Justlike rabbits - coyotes got us every time we went out. Nowadays, population is getting to be a problem, that's true, but...

Bette: It's because of lack of war and famine, I didn't know that until I started reading the history books. Everybody thinks that this is really a terrible time until you start reading history, then you really see it.

Elder J: There were more people killed in World War I than any other war in history.

Dale: That's not true. That's just not true. Let me read you some statistics. The Thirty Years War 1618-1648 killed 3 million soldiers and 4 or 5 times that many civilians, 30%-40% of the entire German population died, and that was a world war. The Manchu-Chinese War in 1644 killed 25 million. The Napoleonic Wars, 1792-1815, 5-6 million, Taiping Rebellion, 20-30 million, Genghis Khan, you've got people like that.. Tamerlane; did you ever hear about Tamerlane in the 14th century? He went through whole countries, slaughtered whole cities, and whole districts if anybody so much as raised a sword against him he killed the whole city. There were some bloody, bloody wars in history and those statistics...

ElderJ: Those statistics are not accurate, you're talking about a 40 year war, a 10 year war, 12 year war, neither of the two world wars which were undoubtedly world wars lasted that long, 40 years, most any of them...

Bette: The percentage of the population killed in this century is very small compared to the past 20 centuries and in actual numbers h turns out that those other centuries had a lot more killed; I don't know what statistics they're giving....

Dale: But what you've got to look at is that someone sitting in this century with a particular population and while the rise in population and the growth in weaponry and that sort of thing, to that person sitting there, they have no idea what's going to happen in the future, and they can make a case for wars, famines, and pestilence in any century, that's the point I'm making. You could take any century and look at it from his standpoint and make a case that this is the worst period of time the human race has ever lived through. We don't know what's going to happen 10 years from now; we don't know what's going to happen 20 years from now. You can't make that case just on that point, you have to have something else. I recognized that a long time ago because I looked into this stuff 15 years ago and I found out that you couldn't prove the earthquake thing. As for famines and pestilence, that's no contest because this century has had far fewer famines and pestilence compared to previous times when there were famines many years and pestilence killed almost half the babies born. I came to realize that you couldn't prove the time of the end by statistics alone - but I always thought that you could prove it by the chronology of 1914. Now I find out that that doesn't hold up either.

Elder J: Then you disagree with all the Society's teachings?

Dale: Not everything.

Elder D: There are several things that I want to run by you quickly. Immortality of the soul, hell fire? From what I remember there was no question on that.

*NOTE: I am answering these questions from the viewpoint of what Jehovah's Witnesses mean by "Trinity", etc. They are misinformed about what other Christians believe.

Dale: No, I don't believe in immortality of the soul. I agree that that was a Greek idea and many Bible scholars will agree with me too, if you get them aside where nobody will hear them...

Elder J: How about Trinity?

Dale: I believe that Christ Jesus is God's son.

Elder J: Not the same person?

Dale: No, I have learned from talking to people that Jehovah's Witnesses have no idea what other people believe as far as what they call the Trinity, and they have no idea what Jehovah's Witnesses believe when they talk about not believing in the Trinity. And actually, you think they're way out here, but they're actually in here somewhere. They're a lot closer together because hardly anyone believes Jesus is Jehovah, or God is the Son. Maybe five percent of Christians believe the Modalist view, most view them as separate persons...

Elder J: What about the creeds?

Dale: Well, that's true, some of the creeds state it in that way, but that's not really what they mean, and as far as Trinity, you can get into a lot of tail-chasing arguments and arguments about words and I think ifs fruitless because we're talking about the nature of God and none of us have ever been there, all we have are the examples in the Scriptures and that couched in human terminology. It's not an issue. What's an issue with me is the controlling, dominating attitudes that I've seen build up in the organization over the years. Because I remember reading what Russell said, and Russell made some classic comments about people who bring the "silly charge of traitor" to someone who dares to look at information that might raise questions about one's own religion. (Of course he said that before his own movement became an organization). I think that our personal freedom should be such that we shouldn't fear to read information from any source.

Elder D: How do you feel about the faithful and discreet slave?

Dale: Why don't you read that from Luke. Have you ever compared the accounts of Luke and Matthew? I've got a comparison I made here. I've printed up all the gospel accounts here in a three-column format on my word processor, and it's really interesting when you compare the different gospel accounts. I know Matthew is always quoted, but in Luke he talks about the whole concept of being found ready when the master of the house returns. If you read that illustration in Matthew about the owner of the house you'll note that he says you must always be ready because the son of man will come at an hour when you do not expect him.

Elder J: [Reads Luke 12:41-48 NW]

Dale: I don't see that as a prophecy. I see that as an illustration that Jesus gave that had to do with what the illustration shows - our responsibility to be ready when the master returns, and each individual Christian can be a faithful slave, or he can be an unfaithful slave. He can be one who doesn't do his master's will and be beaten with a few strokes, or I don't know what the eventually of the other course will be, it doesn't sound too good to me and I wouldn't want to be there.

Bette: But Peter says "Lord, are you saying this illustration to us or to all", so he would know what Jesus meant then, and when Peter talks about stewards in 1 Peter 4:10 "In proportion as each one has received a gift, use in ministering to one another as fine stewards of God's undeserved kindness in various ways." So if anyone could understand that illustration Peter would and he seemed to apply to all Christians; in fact this version says "Lord are you talking to just us or to everyone? And the Lord said, "l 'm talking to any faithful, sensible man whose master gives him the responsibility of feeding the other servants."

Elder D: The question is when does it apply?

Dale: When Christ returns.

Bette: No, not in Luke's account. It is not part of the sign at all.

Elder J: And particularly where it says, "Happy is that slave if his master on arriving finds him doing so. Truly I say to you, he will appoint him over all his belongings."

Dale: Are you reading from Matthew or from Luke?

Elder J: From Matthew.

Bette: And then it says, in Luke's account, "But if ever that slave...

Dale: An interesting thing I came across in Luke's account, and that the problem with the phrase, "if ever that slave", so it doesn't seem that he is talking about a faithful slave and then over here is an unfaithful slave.

Elder J: "If the unfaithful slave..."

Dale& Bette: No, it says "if ever that slave" in Luke...

Dale: In other words, if that slave should prove to be unfaithful" so that slave has two eventualities - he can be a faithful slave, or he can be an unfaithful slave.

Elder J: [Says that Matthew's account of the slave is part of the sign]

Dale: But ifs same conversation. And that's something I wanted to ask you about. When do you apply Matthew 24:42-44? [long silence] When does that apply?

Elder V: Applies now.

Elder J: Jesus says that the days of Noah would be like the coming of the Son of Man.

Dale: He says "You must be ready because the Son of Man will come at an hour when you do not expect him", when is that "coming in verse 44?

[Consensus of committee: at Armageddon, at his revelation]

Dale: That is how the Society has applied it. Now in verse 46, they apply that to 1914. Contextually you can't do that. It says "Who, then,…" The Greek word ara, refers back to the previous information. I talked to a professor of Biblical Greek while back and he checked it out for me. You see the point I'm making? If you subscribe to the "two-stage coming" idea. The parousia idea as the Society does, you'll have a problem here because if you say that this part here in verses 42-44 applies at Armageddon, they you have to say that the "faithful and discreet slave" hasn't been appointed yet.

Elder J: In Matthew 24:37 Jesus talks about a period of time, "For just the days of Noah were, so the presence of the Son of man will be." And then he talks about the days before the flood. And the days of Noah were a century. And the presence of the Son of Man is a time period culminating [in Armageddon].

Dale: Unfortunately that idea of the two-stage coming -are you familiar with the history of that? The idea was apparently started over in England by a banker named Henry Drummond who became a Bible expositor. Benjamin Wilson who had just published his Emphatic Diaglot was of this persuasion. These ideas were a part a religious awakening early 1800's, the Millerite movement - are you familiar with any of that? There were an incredible number of dates set using time periods based on the 2520 years. The 1260 years, and when these dates failed, a lot of people began to use this idea of parousia as meaning a period of time, as a method of salvaging their failed dates. Unfortunately that was before the real explosion of information on the koine Greek. You can check in any Greek-English lexicon, the T.D.N.T. by Kinel, has got 14 pages of discussion on the technical meaning of parousia, and that's not just Biblical, but includes the usage in the common Greek of the day. Parousia refers to the coming of a ruler in judgment. And this idea of a two-stage coming cannot really be supported in the Greek at all. It has been used to salvage tailed predictions. In fact, that's what Barbour did. In 1874, when nothing happened visibly in 1874, he said Christ came invisibly. He was basing his 1874 date on the end of 6,000 years. And then he added 40 years to that to come up with 1914. I never did figure out exactly where Barbour got the 2520 years. Russell got it from Barbour. Also he may have gotten the parousia idea from Joseph Seitz, who was a prominent Second Adventist and a propagator of Second Adventist ideas. But that's real interesting how that came about. Russell didn't figure it out by himself by any means. But there is no way to support that idea of parousia.

Bette: Didn't you show me a side by side comparison of those words...?

Dale: Yes that's the interesting thing about h, if you put those texts side by side you find that they are essentially used as synonyms. For example parousia and epiphaneia are used almost interchangeably. When you look at all the usage of them, you can't really say that parousia has a different meaning than coming, since they're used as synonyms.

Bette: If you only read Matthew's account you would get that idea perhaps, but if you read the corresponding accounts you would probably notice that the opposite word is used in the same place so it must mean the same thing.

Elder J: In Thessalonians, when it talks about Jesus coming in flaming fire, that is his coming as far as the end of this system is concerned.

Dale: Which reference to parousia, in 1st Thess. or 2nd? There's two places where he uses parousia in 2nd Thessalonians.

Elder J: In 2 Thessalonians.... and Revelation, of course.... that was comparable to one actually arriving back in those days where arriving was actually a period of time.

Dale: Yes, but the coming that he talks about, where he relates his coming with the days of Noah, Luke here uses apokalypsis, and the parallel account Matthew 24:39 it says "They knew nothing until the flood came and took them all away, that is how it will be at the coming, parousia, of the Son of Man." And Luke says, "It will be Justlike this on the day that the Son of Man is revealed, and he compares it with Sodom and Gomorrah, and also Noah entering the ark Justprior to the flood.

Elder J: [Goes back to early part of Matthew 24 and tries to apply wars, famines and pestilence to the apostles asking for a "sign of his presence".]

Dale: Yes, but he did tell us what the sign was, he says at the end there, "Then they will see the sign of the Son of Man coming in the heavens.

Elder J: He says in verse 7, " For nation shall rise against nation and kingdom against kingdom" and so forth, certainly Jesus was discussing things that would happen in answer to their question...

Dale: I would say that he was discussing things that would happen all down through the centuries. Verse 4, all the way down to verse 28. Those were all things that would happen all down through the years, and you can say that those things happened all down through the centuries.

Elder J: Verse 15 is where he says that the "disgusting thing that causes desolation spoken of by Daniel would be standing in the Holy place"[...]

Dale: Ok, now that has direct application to the end of the Jewish system, that's one of the questions they asked, when was the temple going to be torn down, right? So these things did happen, and the temple was torn down, and these things have continued to happen, right on down through the ages. It can be interpreted that way just as rationally as the way you are interpreting it.

Elder J: There's a fallacy there, however, because Jesus goes on to say there would be a time of "tribulation that has not occurred since the world's beginning until now, no, nor will occur again." Then in Daniel 12 he says that Michael will stand up, and there will be a uniting of his people and he also says there that there would be a great tribulation or time of trouble."

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Transcript Of Judicial Committee Meeting Of Dale & Bette Baker

by Bangalore in

transcript of judicial committee meeting of dale & bette baker.. http://www.jehovahswitnessbooks.com/2010/03/judicial-committee-meeting-of-dale.html.

bangalore.

.

Bangalore

Here it is,Huxley. It is quite long. So will split it in parts.

Judicial committee meeting of Dale & Bette Baker

Judicial Committee Meeting of Dale & Bette Baker

Charges: Apostasy

BACKGROUND: In September of 1990, after a year of intensive research into the historical and doctrinal foundations of Jehovah's Witnesses, the religion in which I was raised, I mailed a 110 page Open Letter to Family and Friends. In it, I documented my search for truth, and outlined the Scriptural reasons that I could no longer accept the spiritual authority of the Governing Body of the Watchtower Society. The reason for sending such a letter was to discharge my responsibility before God to inform those many persons who I had influenced over many years as a Jehovah's Witness elder of the facts that I had recently learned about my religion. I felt they had a right to know, and that I had an obligation to tell them. *

Note: As a matter of record, Dale passed away a few years ago.

A group of elders in the Kansas City area sent copies of my letter to the Headquarters of the Watchtower Society, who then sent a copy and a request to the local congregation elders to investigate a charge of apostasy against my wife and me. Their goal was to get evidence of apostasy against us so that we could be disfellowshipped. This would mean that none of our friends or family members would be allowed to have any personal contact whatever with us, on pain of similar treatment.

I agreed to meet with them on the one condition that they would examine my letter and show me scripturally wherein it constituted apostasy according the Scriptures. I invite you to examine the proceedings of our "trial" on the charge of "apostasy."

They began by describing how they became involved in the matter.

Elder D: You have a long background as a Jehovah's Witness, isn't that correct?

Dale: Since about 1940.

Elder D: Were your parents Witnesses?

Dale: My mother, my grandfather was active in the 1 920s.

Elder D: From the sound of it, you were used quite a bit.

Dale: Yes, I served at Bethel in the 50's, pioneered for years, and served as an elder for most of my years. It wasn't until the early 80's that we began experiencing problems in the organization.

Elder D: I understand those things, and I don't think these brothers haven't been around so long that they haven't seen similar things. The Bible book of James is full of those problems and what to do when those things happen. It's a shame that it does...

Dale: I hear stories like that from most every congregation I know of.

Elder V: But there's a sifting going on.

Bette: Well, in our experience, the wrong people are being sifted out..

Dale: It's the wrong people that left..

Elder D: What's unfortunate is that, so many times, when we're touched by people like that, what people will often do is question, Why would Jehovah allow something like that to happen? The Bible mentions that would happen. All of the apostles warned about it. It's a human failing.

Dale: Well, I don't think you can expect a perfect congregation.

Elder D: But nonetheless, we still have our faith. That can be tested and tried Our faith should survive.

Dale: Well, it has. It has been strengthened by it. It certainly hasn't been weakened.

Elder D: The point that really troubles us, Dale, is that the net, after all these years after the problem, that the net result is that you've actually veered away from Jehovah's organization.

Dale: I still consider myself a part of Jehovah's organization.

Elder D: Really?

Dale: I just disagree with you as to what it is. I believe Jehovah's organization is Christ's body. His kingdom made up of all his followers who are joined to the head. I believe I'm very much a part of that. I think all true Christians are. We don't know who they all are, and I'm not into judging them. I feel very much a part of that.

Elder D: The problem with that is that comment goes opposite of what the Bible says, because the Bible talks about our brothers. The scriptures indicate that we should be able to determine who our brothers are. It should be a simple matter to determine who they are.

Dale: How would you know?

Elder D: What I'm thinking about is the scriptures that talk about doing good to your brother. How can you love your God if you don't love your brother? The Bible isn't being ambiguous; it's being specific. It's not talking about our Christian Brother who's out there somewhere, but people that we should specifically be doing good to.….

Dale: I can tell who is a Christian Brother. If somebody is a believer in Christ, I'd have to accept him. If he behaves in a manner that doesn't show that he has a walk with God, I'd have to say, well, maybe he's not a Christian. I consider Jehovah's Witnesses, most of them that I know, my Christian brothers. I also consider other people my Christian brothers, too. I don't think that you can say that if they belong to this organization or that organization, or go to this church... I no longer am convinced that that's how you tell, just by a religious affiliation.

Elder D: The Bible talks about what we're really doing, we're getting to the point where - I'm aware, and so is J-- and V--, where your disagreement with the points on chronology are, and we could talk from now until the end of time on the subject of chronology. It's a long and advanced discussion. But apart from that and without actually getting into the chronology aspect, do you believe that we're living in the last days?

Dale: It depends on how you define the last days. I don't think you can define it by a generation. We're certainly in the Christian Age. I don't know if he's going to come in my lifetime or not. I hope it does -I'd like to see it. But I don't think scripturally you can say that.

Elder D: You know, there's an awful lot of Bible prophecy that discusses events in relationship to the last days. And virtually all of them.. show we're living in close proximity of the end.

Dale: You can believe in urgency without setting a date.

Elder D: Well, we're not setting a date.

Dale: Jehovah's Witnesses certainly have set dates. They have set so many of them, that that's one of the things that led me to start making an investigation of the Bible and of my religion, and of the history of my religion. I was appalled to find out how many dates they actually did set. And none of them have come true. I believe Jesus, when he said, "You do not know when your master will return." He said it so many times that I think that's the whole point. In fact, in Luke he says, beware of those saying, "the due time has approached." Now that's just what we've been doing - that's what I've been doing for about forty-five years, telling people, "it's just around the corner", "a couple of years away. The early Christians had a sense of urgency, and we should too. You could die tomorrow and that would be the end for you. So we have to be right with God and with Christ all of the time.

Elder D: We've always taken that view.

Dale: I know, but you can't deny, the organization set dates that were wrong. I mean you can't deny that. They haven't been right about a date yet. Tell me one they're right about. I'd like to know.

Elder V: With your background and years in the truth, what caused you to doubt? You were in the truth many years. Did you believe in 1914 then?

Dale: Being raised a Witness, the only information I had to go on was what I was taught. I believed them. I believed, as I read in the Wt recently, that JW's were going around telling people, "watch out for 1914, a time of trouble is going to start." That's not what they said. That's absolute falsehood. They did not say that at all. Russell said that 1914 would be the end of the time of trouble. He said that the Jews would be returned to Palestine, God's kingdom would be ruling on the earth. If there was a war he said h would be well before 1914. He didn't say that a time of trouble would start after 1914, he believed Christ was already present, in 1874. He believed the time of the end began in 1799. Have you ever read any of that stuff? That's what they were preaching. I've gone back and read pre-1914 issues of the WT. I know what they said. And to come around and say after the fact, "oh, no, we didn't say that, we were preaching about a time of trouble to start in 1914," that's very misleading. And I've gone out and knocked on doors and told people that this is proof that this is God's organization. And now I find out they told me a- something that wasn't really quite true. 1975 - I went through that. And I can remember, after 1975. I said, well, the society didn't really say that. But then a brother said, yes, they did. He showed me some of the Awakes and we started looking at them, and they really did say that. They really did encourage a belief that 1975 would be the end; and when I look back and see all the damage that did to people, I started examining articles to find out just what they did say. What is a false prophet? A false prophet is somebody who gives a prophecy that doesn't come true, period. That's right out of Deuteronomy 16.

Elder V: Does Jehovah have an organization, or doesn't he?

Dale: Yes, he has an organization, but I don't agree that...

Elder V: Who do I have to go to now?

Dale: Christ Jesus. Directly. Without the aid of any human agency.

Elder V: Are you saying you're a born again Christian?

Dale: Well, that's a part of becoming a Christian - the early Christians did. Those of the 144,000 - they're born again, aren't they? They're part of the body of Christ...

Bette: Doesn't the Bible say, everyone that believes that Jesus is the Christ is born from God?

Elder V: That's different- that's a different connotation. It's not the same as born again. Born of God comes as a result of [our complying with] John 17:3. But you know that better than I, you've been in the truth for over 40 years.

Elder J: Apparently you're of the opinion now that there is only the hope of heaven.

Dale: I don't know what the status of the earth will be

- I know there are scriptures that talk about the earth - I think that when I read anything in the New Testament, that it speaks to me, and any Christian who reads it. I don't believe that I can say, "well, that only applies to one millionth of the human race." I don't agree with that. That's been the hope down through the centuries. If you look at the 144,000, taking that literally, if you just count the numbers that Jehovah's Witnesses are happy with as far as increase, and apply that to the first century, they would have had 144,000 before the end of the first century.

Bette: There were more than 144,000 Christian martyrs

Dale: I find it very hard to believe that they weren't real Christians. If you look in Revelation, (I know you take that literally), but it says, 12,000 out of each tribe. Are those 12.000 literal persons?

Elder D: Yes.

Dale: They are? Do people of spiritual Israel have a concept of what tribe they belong to?

Elder D: It just shows a correspondency to Israel.

Bette: Doesn't it say 12,000 out of each tribe, meaning that there are more in each tribe, but only 12,000 out of that tribe are taken?

Elder D: In that chapter it talks about the sealed ones, and in the very next breath, in the 9th verse...

Dale: Who are the 24 elders?

Elder D: [Body of Christ]

Dale: Since they're represented by the 144,000, and they're also represented by 24 elders, why can't they also be represented in another aspect by a great crowd -- an innumerable crowd?

Elder V: But why even entertain the idea, Dale, about the majority having a concept of heaven? Do you think this is just a big incubator that God made here on earth, to hatch out imperfect people so they could go to heaven? Is that what God wants, take all these Holier-than-thou people off the earth, and resurrect them to the heavens?

Dale: I don't think he's going to take all the holier-than-thou people, I think he's going to take true Christians and Jesus knows who they are, and I don't think we have a right to start picking and choosing and being the judges.

Elder V: Right, and . . They can't sing that song unless they're of that group...

Dale: How come, then, "there is one faith, one hope, one baptism", one hope. How is it that all of a sudden now, there's two hopes?

Elder V: Jesus said, "I have other sheep that are not of this fold."

Dale: Have you ever looked at that scripture in the Greek? It says, I have other sheep that are not of this fold- the word there is aule; it means a sheep-fold. It says he takes his sheep out of it. He doesn't take them to another sheepfold, he takes them out. When he says I have other sheep which are not of this fold, the Greek there is taute - it refers back to this fold, that is, the Jewish people. There's no other way you can understand that in the Greek. I've gone through this with several Greek scholars, and they all say the same thing. There's no way contextually that you can say anything but that Jesus was saying 'I have other sheep which are not of this Jewish fold', the Hebrew system. These "other sheep" are simply Gentiles; they're not from the Hebrew ethnic background. And Jewish Christians, after Jesus died, after Cornelius was preached to, would understand what he's talking about. They'd say, "oh, yes, that's who he was talking about - the Gentile Christians." Jesus said they would be one flock, one shepherd. If you look at it from the WT's viewpoint, for 1900 years all you have is the original flock he took out of the sheepfold, right? Then in 1935, Rutherford had an inspiration, and all of a sudden we have this "other sheep group." So they're together for - from 1936 to whenever Armageddon is, and then they go up to heaven and the "other sheep" stay on earth. So out of all eternity, they're only going to be together about 65 years, as one flock. To understand it in a contextual sense, as Jesus said it, that these other sheep were merely non-Jewish Christians, makes a lot more sense.

Elder J: The 144,000 are spoken of as standing on the Mount Zion with the Lamb. reigning with Christ on mount Zion, whereas the great crowd are standing before the Lamb. On the throne or before the throne.

Dale: But another chapter of Revelations talks of the 144,000 standing before the throne. You can't prove the point by a preposition, because of the way the word is used in other places.

Elder J: casting their crowns before him...

Dale: On. or before, or around, the words are used so interchangeably...

Elder J: Revelation refers to them as ruling over the earth.

Bette: Only in your translation. The word is epi meaning upon....

Elder J: Surely you'll agree that they'll reign over a paradise earth.

Dale: Well that depends on when you want to say Revelation starts to apply. Obviously it applied in the first century to the churches to whom it was written, wouldn't you agree? I believe Revelation has had application all down through the centuries. A Christian in any era can look at those symbolisms and be encouraged...

Elder J: The Society teaches that it has fulfillment in the Lord's day.

Dale: Well, the year 1914, I disagree with that. There's absolutely no way of proving it. And the Society's chronology that they use to prove it - the 2520 years- there's absolutely no way you can say Jerusalem fell in 607 BC. I've been through that over and over again, and their chronology on 1914 is faulty...

Elder D: What is the sign?

Dale: The sign? That could be applied if you're going to take wars, famines and pestilence and say that's the sign? What century could you not have applied that in?

Elder J: Then the horseman of Revelation 6 rides throughout all the generations?

Dale: Sure.

Elder J: But you're forgetting, they're preceded by the one with the crown on the white horse.

Dale: That explanation about the one on the white horse being Christ Jesus is another thing I have to disagree with; I've read all sorts of things about that and I'm not sure that that's the application.

Elder J: Then it must not be the same white horse mentioned in Revelation...

Dale: I forget now, but I've read quite a bit about that. Interpreting Revelation, the society has done it how many times now? Four. They've reinterpreted Revelation four different times. Revelation's one of those books that it's hard to pin numbers and symbols to specific things...

Elder J: As things transpire we understand things more clearly...

Dale: How do you apply that to 1914?

Elder J: Well we tie that to 1914 because that's when wars famines and pestilence's began to become intolerable as the white horse began to ride forth in his conquest...

Dale: How do you know when the king rode forth to complete his conquest?

Elder J: Because that's when the wars, famines, and earthquakes became worse as a result of his conquest...

Dale: But how do you put that in 1914? It seems to me that when it comes to evidence, that you are Justmaking an assertion. But show me some evidence, how can you tie the year 1914 to that event?

Elder J: The generation that began in 1914 started with world war.

Dale: So did the generation that lived in Napoleon's time; that was as much a world war as 1914 was.

Bette: Doesn't that sound like you're saying we know that the rider was on the horse because of the war and that I know that's when he rode because...

Dale: Circular reasoning.

Elder J: Actually world war began a period of conflict, crisis and upheaval that people had never seen.

Dale: That's not really true statistically. I know that the Society has said about 1914, and that "World War I was seven times worse than all the previous wars of history," have you read that? That's one of the statements that they trot out from time to time. Wars have been going on ever since before Jesus' time, I mean there have been wars and wars and wars - you can hardly find a century in which there wasn't war. And there have been some centuries, which were a whole lot worse than ours.

Elder J: One thing we have to remember is that [with the population growth and the progress in technological arms since 1914] makes them certainly far worse than the hand to hand combat of earlier generations.

Dale: How do you relate world population to wars, etc?

Elder J: What I'm saying is that world war during in the 1800's were fought when we had a much smaller earth population whereas in our day we have very, very large populated nations rising up against one another.

Dale: Then why did wars kill more people? That's a good point, but why did those wars kill more people than the First World War? The First World War killed 10-12 million people. There've been wars in the past in the 1600's, 1 500,s that killed 25 million people.

Elder J: Then why have they never been called a world war?

Dale: Some have been called world wars. The French Revolution (and Napoleon Wars) is considered a world war by some. Some earlier wars are considered by historians to have been more accurately "world wars" than World War I. World War II was a world war. But the First World War was basically European. It was fought mainly in Europe, and the United States was about the only non-European combatant.

95

Greta Thunberg...what’s your view of her?

by minimus in

jw
friends

she certainly is passionate about climate change.

🤔.

Bangalore

Greta Meets Attenborough.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tmrFUVOOR14

1

Authorities Raid Russian Jehovah’s Witnesses

by Bangalore in

https://www.themoscowtimes.com/2019/12/31/authorities-raid-russian-jehovahs-witnesses-uthorities-raid-russian-jehovahs-witnesses-a68786.

authorities raided homes of jehovah’s witnesses in northern russia as part of a criminal probe into extremism against the banned religious organization, investigators said in a statement monday.. russia banned the christian denomination known for door-to-door preaching, close bible study and rejection of military service and blood transfusions in 2017. rights groups have condemned the crackdown against the jehovah’s witnesses as a violation of religious freedom.

investigators in the city of murmansk accused worshippers of “knowingly conducting the activities of the religious organization from april 2017 to the present time.” .

Bangalore

https://www.themoscowtimes.com/2019/12/31/authorities-raid-russian-jehovahs-witnesses-uthorities-raid-russian-jehovahs-witnesses-a68786

Authorities raided homes of Jehovah’s Witnesses in northern Russia as part of a criminal probe into extremism against the banned religious organization, investigators said in a statement Monday.

Russia banned the Christian denomination known for door-to-door preaching, close Bible study and rejection of military service and blood transfusions in 2017. Rights groups have condemned the crackdown against the Jehovah’s Witnesses as a violation of religious freedom.

Investigators in the city of Murmansk accused worshippers of “knowingly conducting the activities of the religious organization from April 2017 to the present time.”

The believers “held meetings, personally delivered sermons, distributed religious literature and involved new people in the activities of an extremist organization,” they said in an online statement.

Russia Jails Jehovah's Witness for 6 Years for Extremism

HAPPY NEW YEAR 2020!!!

by minimus in

jw
friends

i’m wishing all of my friends here a great new year!.

Bangalore

Happy New Year everyone.

24

Interesting observations at an SDA church

by joe134cd in

i’ve just attended a sda church service today.

i have to say the attendance was similar to what i would expect to see in a jw service.

the style and nature of the service was also very jwish (formal, drab and boring).

Bangalore

They are a sort of JW Lite.

22

The ineffectiveness of the Watchtower Society preaching work

by RULES & REGULATIONS in

how can the watchtower society claim effectiveness in their 140 years of preaching the ''good news''..... spending billions of hours in ''field service'', having the ''faithful and discreet slave'' lead the preaching work, passing out billions of watchtower literature since the 1870's, while the pentecostals have been more effective using other evangelical methods?

congregations.

119,954. members.

Bangalore

From JW Facts.

The preaching work conducted by Jehovah's Witnesses is becoming less and less effective. A simple evaluation of the yearly report shows that it takes 5000 hours of witnessing per baptism (1 billion witnessing hours in 2004 resulted in only 200,000 baptisms). If you take the figure of 200,000 and halve it for those born in the truth and then halve it again to account for those reached in informal witnessing an even more realistic figure would be 20,000 hours of door-to-door work for one convert. That is the equivalent of 166 people doing 10 hours each a month for a year.

37

My mom

by vienne in

i'm annie, rachael's daughter.

mom died yesterday.

i can't find a way to delete her account here.

Bangalore

My condolences,Annie. Your mom was a wonderful person and researcher. She will be missed.

78

Is White Nationalism A Major Problem In Your Opinion?

by minimus in

jw
friends

after seeing the atrocity in new zealand, do you think white nationalism is a major issue affecting you or where you live?.

somebody already called out chelseaclinton, blaming her for the attack!

.

Bangalore

A Kiwi lad's death by drone

TONY WALL, BLAIR ENSOR AND ANDREA VANCE

When the Jones boys converted to Islam, it caused quite a stir in Christchurch.

Suddenly Daryl and his younger brother Nathan, who grew up in a strong Christian house, were sporting beards, learning Arabic and wearing flowing robes. Carloads of Muslims, including immigrant women in veils, would turn up at the family's home in a smart east Christchurch suburb, neighbours tut-tutting and muttering about terrorists.

Some who knew the family accepted the conversion, others struggled. When Daryl was in his early 20s and still flirting with Islam, he surprised the family of a Christian friend he was visiting when he suddenly declared he had to go to the far end of the house to pray towards Mecca. "We thought it was weird," said the friend's mother.

All of this upset the boys' parents - the father a former Australian police officer doing security for a government organisation, the mother employed by a Christchurch tertiary institution. The Sunday Star-Times has decided not to name the parents to protect their privacy. They declined interviews and have told friends not to speak to the media.

Daryl, 30 when he died, moved to Sydney around 2008 and converted to Islam soon after arriving. Nathan, still in Christchurch, converted soon after with the help of Saudi Arabian students he was friendly with.

"The parents desperately wanted both the boys to leave Islam. They had seen their sons change dramatically in appearance - it's scary for parents when that happens," a source said.

Mr and Mrs Jones turned to their New Life Church for help, and were put in touch with some people with knowledge of Islam to teach them more about it and hopefully convince Nathan to re-think his decision. He listened politely to the delegation, but rejected the advice.

In Sydney, Daryl began attending the Lakemba Mosque, known as a hotbed of radicalism, and drew the attention of counter-terrorism authorities because of the company he kept.

He changed his name to Muslim bin John, married a Somali woman and around 2009 headed to Saudi Arabia and then Yemen, ancestral home of Osama bin Laden and home base of al-Qaeda in the Arabian Peninsula (AQAP). He told his family he wanted to teach English and help people. But a source said Jones was thrown in prison in Yemen because he was not a registered teacher, leaving his wife and four children stranded. His parents arranged for the family to come to Christchurch, where they remain.

The family last heard from Daryl around May 2012, then lost all contact. The strain on his parents' marriage was immense, and they separated.

After the 2011 earthquakes Mrs Jones spent time in a motor home, staying at a caravan park near Christchurch. She gave the impression of a lost soul, said those who knew her. Residents of the park remember her saying her son was "missing" in the Middle East and she had asked church groups to help find him. She seemed very depressed and had had some sort of falling out with her daughter-in-law.

When news of Daryl's death finally filtered through after DNA was used to identify the remains, Mrs Jones fell apart.

"No-one really has any answers, it makes the grieving process very difficult," said a friend. "As a parent, who wouldn't be devastated that someone can flick a switch and your child is gone? It's absolutely devastating. This is a completely broken woman. To lose a child this way. Who makes these decisions to murder your child, and doesn't even let you know what happened?"

Born in Australia on September 14, 1983, Daryl Anthony Jones and his family moved to New Zealand, his mother's home country, when he was about six or seven. Those who knew Jones used the same words to describe him: quiet, shy, soft-spoken, gentle, polite.

"Nathan seemed a good kid too," said a source. "I think the two boys would have been fairly easily led. I think they were just influenced by the wrong people."

Daryl and Nathan attended Aranui High School and were involved in Christian youth groups, but became disillusioned and didn't fit in. Sensitive and deep thinkers, they believed there was hypocrisy in the church.

"They felt that what was being taught about love and acceptance was not being practised," a source said. "Daryl was looking for a belief system that worked for him. Muslim friends offered brotherhood if he converted to Islam." One issue for Daryl was the Christian doctrine of the Holy Trinity. "Daryl accepted the [Islamic] view of one absolute God," the source said.

Experts familiar with Islamic converts said there was usually some problem or crisis in their background. Although Daryl was from a good family, sources said the father was angry and controlling. "Daryl was a very quiet man, very serious. I would say he had an anger issue deep down," said a person who knew the family.

"It was not a settled family, there was a lot of anger there, I think there were underlying insecurity issues for both boys from when they were little."

Papanui man Kevin Fish met Daryl 10 years ago and they would hang out at weekends, playing video games, before Jones moved to Australia. "He was into tinkering with gadgets and stuff. He was a genuinely good guy."

Jones would come back from Australia on holiday. "He'd converted to Islam," Fish said. "We didn't see much of him after that, he just disconnected from the rest of us."

They argued on occasion about religion, but Fish never sensed that his friend would join a terrorist group. "He didn't seem like the kind of guy that would lay a finger on anyone."

Fish said he heard Jones had moved to an Arab country where he was studying the Koran "or something like that.

"I heard through an old friend that he'd been missing for a while and then we saw the thing about a New Zealander being killed in a drone strike. "It just clicked - ‘oh, it was him'."

Jones was killed alongside Australian Christopher Havard, whose parents said he was introduced to radical Islam at the Al-Noor mosque in Christchurch.

Mosque leaders confirmed Havard stayed there and studied in 2011, but denied radical teaching took place. But a man who attended a converts' weekend at the mosque 10 years ago said a visiting speaker from Indonesia talked about violent jihad and plenty shared his views. "Most of the men were angry with the moral weakness of New Zealand. I would say they were radical."

Jones' radicalisation was a gradual process. It appears he listened to controversial speakers on the internet, such as Anwar al-Awlaki, a US citizen taken out by a drone in Yemen in 2011, and mixed with radicals in Sydney.

An Egyptian immigrant who has seen first-hand how Muslims are recruited for jihad said Western converts were vulnerable because, besides feeling marginalised from Western society, they were curious about their new religion and wanted to dig deeper. "The [recruiters] have a brainwashing process known as CRA - conversion, radicalisation and activation," said the source. "Once the person is radicalised, they tell them, ‘here is your role, your responsibility'. Now the person feels they have something to do, to be important, to be someone."

Australian media reported Jones was known to Australian Federal Police (AFP) as an "Islamic radical" and the subject of numerous border protection reports. He and Havard had their Australian passports cancelled in 2012 because it was feared they posed a threat to national security.

Havard was the subject of an AFP arrest warrant over the kidnapping of Westerners in Yemen in December, 2012. It is not known if Jones, who reportedly fought under the name Abu Suhaib al-Australi, was involved.

Last week New Zealand Islamic convert Mark Taylor, now apparently fighting in Syria, told The Australian Jones tried to recruit him to al-Qaeda in Yemen in 2009. Taylor, also known as Muhammad Daniel, claimed that at one point Jones had flown back to Australia to get a Saudi Arabia visa to work as a teacher, and was met by British intelligence agents hoping he would work with them.

Jones and Havard were with five others in the convoy hit by a missile fired from a US drone in Yemen's Hadramout province on November 19. While authorities believe they were "foot soldiers" of AQAP, they were not the main target of the attack.

Jones' presence in the convoy remains a mystery to his heartbroken family, who have to face the fact their boy is buried in the sands of Yemen.

"It's scary for them. They are normal Kiwis and the SIS [Security Intelligence Service] may have been watching them," a friend said. "We don't know why Daryl was in that car. Was he really with al-Qaeda? Or was he deceived into thinking he was helping victims of US attacks? But what on earth was he doing in that convoy? You don't just sit in a convoy of al-Qaeda militants. Maybe he met them when he was in jail."

Mrs Jones remains unhappy with the lack of information from the government, while Mr Jones is angry he wasn't able to persuade his boy not to go to the Middle East, a source says. "It's devastating for the parents. They are not anti-American but it raises big issues about why they are dropping bombs. Daryl's mother wants to know what proof our Government had that her son was a terrorist. She says people don't know the real Daryl and are only speculating he was with a terrorist organisation."

Prime Minister John Key, minister in charge of the SIS, has remained tight-lipped about the case, initially refusing to release his real name until it was reported in Australian media. He said the Government Communications Security Bureau (GCSB) didn't supply information that led directly to Jones' death, but had a warrant to monitor him and passed information to Five Eyes security agency partners. Key said drone strikes were justified, even when innocent civilians were mistakenly killed.

The Star-Times sought information on Jones from the Department of Internal Affairs (DIA) and the Ministry of Foreign Affairs and Trade. DIA confirmed it held passport information on him but refused to release details on privacy and national security grounds. MFAT said: "The family has requested privacy and we won't be commenting." A senior DIA source said pressure was exerted from the Prime Minister's office not to release information. Friends of the family say they suddenly went quiet a couple of months ago, and speculated the Government had advised them not to speak.

In Christchurch, the ex-judicial death of Jones elicits little sympathy from some. "If he was stupid enough to go [to Yemen]," one former neighbour spat, "then he deserves it."

NZ ISLAMISTS PROMOTE PEACE

On Friday afternoons, Muslim converts gather at a drop-in centre in suburban Christchurch to chat and teach anyone who's interested about Islam.

They have taken names like Abu Hamzah and Abdul Hakeem. One has kept his old name - Nathan Jones. He is the younger brother of Daryl Jones, also known as Muslim bin John, killed by an American drone last year. Nathan Jones and his friends set up the centre to promote Salafism, a sect which follows strict Islam as practised in Mohammed's time. Some Salafi followers in Western countries espouse jihad but Jones and his friends denounce violence. Flyers in the window proclaim that "terrorists kill Muslims and non-Muslims indiscriminately".

Jones, married to an Iraqi woman, declined to comment about his brother or his religious beliefs but his friends said Daryl had followed a "deviant" ideaology. "Orthodox Islam does not teach us to kill innocent people and to blow up trains and strap bombs to ourselves," said Abu Hamzah. "[Daryl] was following . . . an extremist ideology in the ways of [Osama] bin Laden and we never agreed with that ideology. We speak against it."

Hamzah said Muslims in New Zealand were peaceful. "I've been up and down this country and to every single masjid [mosque] there is, almost, and I have met how many people with this radical idea? Two [Jones and Christopher Havard]. And where are they now? Apparently dead. Nathan's brother . . . went to Yemen, he was on some deviant ideology, he thought he'd go join a group and got killed by a drone."

Another convert, Abdul Hakeem Laughton, said "we were advising Saleem [Havard] a long time ago that his ideology was wrong, he didn't take the advice on board."

Hamzah said Havard and Jones listened to radical preachers like Anwar al-Awlaki and were "overcome by emotions" over the killing of Muslims. "We feel pain for our Muslim brothers and we ask almighty Lord to change the situation but we do it based on morals and knowledge. If we did it based on emotions we'd probably be there [Yemen] too.

- Sunday Star Times

78

Is White Nationalism A Major Problem In Your Opinion?

by minimus in

jw
friends

after seeing the atrocity in new zealand, do you think white nationalism is a major issue affecting you or where you live?.

somebody already called out chelseaclinton, blaming her for the attack!

.

Bangalore

Here is the article Nathan mentioned.

https://web.archive.org/web/20140727140346/www.stuff.co.nz/world/middle-east/10310496/A-Kiwi-lads-death-by-drone

Bangalore

Posts by Bangalore

Judicial committee meeting of Dale & Bette Baker

Russia Jails Jehovah's Witness for 6 Years for Extremism

A Kiwi lad's death by drone