Bangalore

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Posts by Bangalore

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  2

  Class Envy In Action?

  by Bangalore in

  1. social
  2. current

  https://inthesetimes.com/article/amazon-ceo-jeff-bezos-mackenzie-scott-billionaire-union.

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  Bangalore

  https://inthesetimes.com/article/amazon-ceo-jeff-bezos-mackenzie-scott-billionaire-union
  
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  3

  Merry Christmas to my friends in Australia and New Zealand!

  by GrreatTeacher in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  as i get ready to go to sleep, i realize that it is already christmas day for everyone in se asia.. i know not everyone celebrates, but it can be a big deal to exjws who were denied the fun and wonder as children.. i have been out since i was a very young adult and have celebrated christmas first with my in-laws and then with my own child and absolutely love the season.. i am also enjoying this quieter covid christmas.

  just my direct family tonight for christmas eve.

  my son is 19 so i don't have to wait till he finally falls asleep and build all the toys, then get up super early on christmas day anymore.

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  Bangalore

  Merry Christmas everyone.
  
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  5

  Dead Cat Receives Voter Registration In Mail

  by Bangalore in

  1. social
  2. current

  dead cat receives voter registration in mail.. https://thepoliticalinsider.com/georgia-dead-cat-receives-voter-registration-in-mail/.

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  Bangalore

  Wonder if this dead cat will vote for Biden.
  
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  5

  Dead Cat Receives Voter Registration In Mail

  by Bangalore in

  1. social
  2. current

  dead cat receives voter registration in mail.. https://thepoliticalinsider.com/georgia-dead-cat-receives-voter-registration-in-mail/.

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  Bangalore

  Dead Cat Receives Voter Registration In Mail.

  https://thepoliticalinsider.com/georgia-dead-cat-receives-voter-registration-in-mail/
  
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  57

  Prince Andrew & Jeffrey Epstein, WTF

  by Simon in

  1. social
  2. current

  in fact, several "wtf"s, not least - why were you visiting a convicted pedophile after his release from prison, never-mind having any contact with him in the first place when his preoclivities seemed to be an open secret.. and the best he can some up with is "i don't remember"?

  you don't remember?

  there's a fucking photo of you with one of the victims and accessories to the crimes you dumb fuck!.

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  Bangalore

  I guess Andy must be feeling terrified now that Maxwell has been arrested.
  
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  15

  Happy birthday smiddy

  by smiddy3 in

  1. social
  2. family

  a young 81 ,may there be many more.. but feeling about 91 at the present time ..

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  Bangalore

  Happy Birthday, Smiddy.
  
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  44

  Leaked WT Elder Training Video

  by Vanderhoven7 in

  1. watchtower
  2. beliefs

  https://youtu.be/2nacvosx8n0.

  good to see the caring brothers help establish depth of guilt..

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  Bangalore

  They are more like slave masters than shepherds of the flock.
  
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  23

  As Biden Struggles, Hillary Waits For The call

  by Bangalore in

  1. social
  2. current

  https://thehill.com/opinion/campaign/495371-as-biden-struggles-hillary-waits-for-the-call.

  .

  any thoughts about this?.

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  Bangalore

  https://thehill.com/opinion/campaign/495371-as-biden-struggles-hillary-waits-for-the-call

  Quite possible I think. Any thoughts about this?
  
  
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  42

  Sad News Of Zing

  by ZindagiNaMilegiDobaara in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  very sad news .i am zing's partner.

  first time on any kind of blog so please forgive any mistakes.

  we have lost zing to the coronavirus this saturday gone, in the early hours.

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  Bangalore

  Sorry to hear about this. May he rest in peace.
  
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  70

  Transcript Of Judicial Committee Meeting Of Dale & Bette Baker

  by Bangalore in

  1. watchtower
  2. scandals

  transcript of judicial committee meeting of dale & bette baker.. http://www.jehovahswitnessbooks.com/2010/03/judicial-committee-meeting-of-dale.html.

  bangalore.

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  Bangalore

  Dale: You know, something that bothered me too, and I have to say this to you because of the fact that we had many, many people coming into the organization, they were coming in droves-. If they got between you and a swimming pool, they got baptized. But after 1975, things really, really fell apart. And one of the things I observed, and I felt very strongly about - we were getting many of the basket cases of society, people who wanted something better, the failure of the churches, people with marriages on the rocks, kids running wild, that sort of thing. We had all kinds of problems. I felt that we made a big effort to get people to quit drinking, quit smoking, quit running around on their wives, things you could see, they're visible. We did a fairly good lob in that. New ones were going on momentum, because here was a new hope, something that would solve their problems. But then as far as really making Christians, we got them so busy going to meetings, studying for this, studying for that, going out in service, just on and on. I saw so many of those people spin, crash, and burn, after about three years, and they finally gave up and said, "this does not work either." Well, what some of those people needed was psychological counseling, family counseling - but boy, I'll tell you, that if you even breathed the word, you were on the carpet with the rest of the elders. We just weren't trained to do that sort of thing.
  
  Bette: There were dozens of them who were suicidal, including an elder's wife and some of the pioneers, and do you think they'd even let them go to a psychologist who was a witness?
  
  Dale: I saw so many needs within the congregation for services that we would not provide because we didn't believe in it. And you can't let a kid go to college, my God no, don't let him go to college! I got into all kinds of trouble for letting my son go to college. Thank God he did! And he's a very committed Christian today It didn't hurt him. He didn't get into immorality, he didn't get into drugs. Our family has always been an excellent family. I saw a lot of these things happen. And I finally had to say, "there are a lot of things we don't know that we need to learn them from someone else." The attitude you going to associate with", there are people right seemed to be, "Armageddon's always going to come in couple years and they didn't need to be concerned about these problems because if they can Justcoast through they can make it." And that's not true. It doesn't happen. The end has been "just around the corner" for all of my life.
  
  Bette: It's a band-aide approach.
  
  Dale: And the band-aide approach at some point wears out. Now you can say "God's spirit is supposed to do that." I'm not saying that God's spirit can't do things, but there are various helps that we can give them as humans and there is expertise that we can apply that is available that we don't do, Witnesses do not do. Now if you say they do it, I don't know where it is that they do it, but they sure didn't do it in any congregation I've ever been in.
  
  Bette: What made me start thinking was mostly when this character who moved in [into our congregation] who was a real wheeler and dealer, and he got 30 people to pioneer, and what was the big shock to me was that those people began to lose their Christianity. They got harsh and judgmental, and the things they would say about the non-pioneers-- and the whole support system just tell apart - the love, the closeness...
  
  Dale: That's the trouble with works-oriented systems...
  
  Bette: And when I saw people actually forced to live it, and saw the rotten fruits, I thought, "What is the matter?" Because you recognize the tree by its fruits. Before that, I could say that if people would really do it, it would work. But then when they did it and the opposite happened, that was really something that was amazing.
  
  Elder V: Well now you've just come up with a problem, and to some degree the problem still exists. Now how are you going to solve it? How are these people needing all this psychiatric help and love, and all this stuff that you say they needed, how are they going to get it? If you don't have an organization to get it done how are they going to get it?
  
  Bette: There is a wonderful woman who lives across the street who is trained as a counselor and she has streams of people come into her house day and night. Her husband is a doctor, and they wear themselves out helping people and charging nothing. She was a minister's wife, and she knows Greek, she does all those things, but she is a really loving person. All that she asks people is that they find a special person, not a family member, and do something special for that person. Do something for someone else. They also help the poor and witness to the street people.
  
  Dale: There are people like that out there.
  
  Elder V: You're right, I won't argue that point.
  
  Dale: You say. "Where are you going to go, who are on our street here; there are some very tine people.
  
  Elder J: Within the last eight or ten years we have had four or five different articles in the Awake! and Watchtower on depression. Many of them bringing out that there are time when counseling is...
  
  Dale: Yes, and it took Richard Wheelock jumping off the roof of Bethel to get that done. Did you know Richard?
  
  Elder J: Yes. I knew Richard Wheelock.
  
  Dale: So did I. I worked under him for three and a half years.
  
  Elder J: When he was sick in the infirmary my son wheeled him about...
  
  Dale: First time they finally changed their mind on something like that was when something happened to someone that was close enough to them. Isn't it a shame that it took that long?
  
  Bette: And another thing, they cautioned in those articles that if it was a drug that they gave you, then it was ok, but if it was talk therapy. Then you have to be very, very careful.
  
  Dale: I'll tell you another story that happened at Bethel. You know Russ Kurzen? Do you know Art Barnen? They both worked on the Bethel reception desk. They had a sister from over in Thailand who developed a psychiatric problem while she was going to Gilead. Several times she tried to jump oft the roof of Bethel. Did you know her?
  
  Elder J: Yes, I knew her.
  
  Dale: In the first place, they wouldn't send someone back to Thailand with her to take care of her, even though she begged for a plane ticket, or at least a companion. They sent her back by boat, by herself. She had another one of her seizures, she jumped overboard. What happened? When the word got back to Bethel and Russ Kerosene told somebody, he got called on the carpet and taken off his job for letting that out and letting the Bethel family know about it. When I was at Bethel there was a young man who developed diabetes. We didn't have a doctor there, and they wouldn't send him to a doctor or to a hospital. He Justgot so sick he couldn't get out of bed and go to work so they decided to send him home. Some of his friends thought. "He isn't going to make it home, he has to go all the way to Seattle on a bus." The least we could do for him was to help buy him an airline ticket. So about thirty of us got together and chipped in about five bucks apiece. My roommate took it down to the Bethel office and said We've got a little money to put with the Society's money so Jack can have an airline ticket home. That way we know he'll get there." And they told my roommate that he'd better get right back up there and give every penny of the money back. The Society had decided how he was going home, and we had taken up a collection; and evening that nobody's perfect. No person is perfect, that was unscriptural. Well, they took the poor kid down to the bus. He was practically in a diabetic coma; they had to put him in the bus because he couldn't figure out which one to get on. We didn't hear from him for almost a year. They picked him up in a drunk tank somewhere down in Iowa, and some police officer recognized that he was sick and put him in a hospital. He had been living on skid row for six months. His one living relative was worried sick about him, nobody knew where he was. Finally he recovered enough to write his friends that he was ok. Is that caring? And that was before the sister lumped off the ship. But it's the same story. Do they ever learn?
  
  Elder J: There were several who came from Thailand, because I was in Thailand. There were several other sisters from Thailand in her Gilead class. Because of her condition they kept her for a number of months longer so she could rest and recuperate. I know Brother Franz was personally involved trying to help her.
  
  Bette: But since she requested an airline ticket home, why didn't they do that? Or if they had to send her by boat, why didn't they send someone with her since she asked them to?
  
  Elder J: I don't want to comment since I don't know all the circumstances, but I do know that it did happen because I was on the receiving end in Thailand at the time.
  
  Bette: And then there was another case at a district assembly where babies were getting heat stroke and dying, and there were two doctors who were Witnesses working in first aid, and they went to chairman's office and asked them to please make a public announcement to the effect, "Mothers, don't leave your babies in the sun, don't let them sleep, don't leave them there. They could get seriously overheated and die." And they were told that the assembly program was too precious to be used for personal announcements.
  
  Dale: I don't necessarily see these people as uncaring or unloving. I see a system that says that the message, the work, is more important than people.
  
  Bette: And refuses to take responsibility, because everything is under God's direction.
  
  Dale: Real Christianity is people-oriented, it's just loving people. And when an organization's dictates, or requirements, or agendas get in the way of people loving people and taking care of people, then something is off track. Now I realize this doesn't happen all the time, it doesn't happen everywhere, it doesn't happen to every person. But there is enough of it to cause me to wonder if this is really the exclusive organization of God, the only one God uses...
  
  Elder D: But we've already acknowledged earlier in the evening that nobody's perfect, no person is perfect, no individual, not any organization. And then you've picked a few situations out of a hat…
  
  Dale: Of course, the same thing can happen in any organization.
  
  Bette: But, if any organization claims to be God's exclusive channel in the world, then they're taking on a lot of responsibility.
  
  Elder D: But when is somebody responsible for any thing? My comment is that you are responsible for something or it becomes a sin to you if you are aware of it. Some people are hurt by this. Some people are not. Some people experience one thing in life, and say, "well, I believe this is a necessary thing." Most people don't need to see the track record of anything to believe. And quite frankly, watching the Society move for several decades. I've noticed that they've made changes conservatively, although not always quickly. But they've made changes conservatively as they see in God's Word because a lot weight on them. It's a faith they can stand on. Or if they get too liberal, people will take it and run with it, I've found that to be...
  
  Dale: Then you haven't really made Christians out of them. If you have to say, "you can't give them an inch because they'll take a mile," you're saying these people are really not well intentioned and you can't trust them to be good.
  
  Bette: It also means it's a legalistic system based on human rules, and it's not going to work right, because it's the Holy Spirit that produces the fruit-ages within the Christian, not the organization.
  
  Elder D: People are still by nature followers. Because, by and large, of the majority, very few would have the inclination or the desire or expertise to be a leader, quite frankly. That's partly just due to human nature.
  
  Dale: Well, the problem, of course, is that the wrong people often have the desire to lead. It's true, I've seen that happen. I used to tell people "I don't know why in the world anybody would want to be an elder." It's a lot of work. A lot of work in helping people. I remember spending hours and hours, and getting called out in the middle of the night back in 1976 to pull somebody's wife out of a bar or somebody's husband out of somebody else's bedroom. That was back during what we came to call the "class of '75". I was so busy during that time that I didn't have time to think. But it made me start thinking afterward. But when you see so much piling up, you have to start asking questions. Here's another thing I began to see. Elders are supposed to be "appointed by holy spirit." How many times have you sat in an elder's meeting and they were going through the list, and somebody's name comes up and they want to make an elder out of him. I re member numerous cases. And I would say, "now wait a minute, look at his family. He does not have a loving relationship with his wife." Now between two dedicated Christians that's the first place love shows up, isn't it, within the family, the closest relationship we have? If he hasn't got it in his family life, you'd better look very carefully. Yet how many times I'd hear, "Hey, look, he's putting in 20 hours per month." I don't care about his hours.
  
  Elder J: That's where the holy spirit comes in...
  
  Dale: But he got appointed.
  
  Elder J: Well, if you ignore those requirements set forth by the holy spirit...
  
  Dale: But then when it goes up to New York, to the governing body, and the five men on the service committee pray about h, does holy spirit tip them off? They're the ones who make the appointment and that's who the holy spirit comes through, it doesn't come through the elders, they just make a recommendation.
  
  Bette: What about that communist spy who became a District Overseer in East Germany?
  
  Elder J: Paul counseled Timothy not to "lay his hands hastily on another man
  
  Dale: Absolutely right, and yet they do it all the time. How about the case we heard about from the Circuit Overseer here in California. A Circuit Overseer visiting a congregation got a sister pregnant. She went and confessed to the elders, naming the Circuit Overseer. They went to him and he said, "No, that wasn't me." He lied about it, but they disfellowshipped her mostly for "lying" about him.
  
  Elder D: With how many witnesses?
  
  Dale: None, except her. But they did it anyway. But here's the hooker...
  
  Elder D: Well, we can't help that...
  
  Dale: Right, of course. I know you can't help that. But that's not my point. Here's what happened. They disfellowshipped her and not having the required witnesses, he went on his merry way. She did her time in the back of the hall with the bag over her head, the standard procedure, and eventually got reinstated. The Circuit Overseer continued to serve and was eventually appointed as a District Overseer. Fifteen years later he came back to the same area, and here was this sister, reinstated, and on the stage at the Circuit Assembly with her 15 year old son who is the spitting' image of the District Overseer. And it got to him and he admitted his sin, and he resigned or was removed, or whatever. So my brother-in-law said, "Well, you see, God's spirit took care of the problem." Fifteen years later! Well, ok, but how can you explain to me how Holy spirit can appoint a man like that to a higher position, living in sin? My brother-in-law said, "Well maybe he was doing more good than harm." Well, come on, you can't fool the Holy spirit, but Jehovah's Witnesses do a pretty good job of it. I know of a case where an elder left his wife ran off with a sister and was disfellowshipped. They both moved clear across the country. Someone knocked on his door, and he said, "Oh sure, I want to study the Bible." He studied, got baptized. He became a ministerial servant, then he became an elder. Finally the Circuit Overseer from his old area happened to get transferred up there and walked in and recognized him, years later. Now, where was the holy spirit? You've got to ask these questions.
  
  Elder D: Back in the time of the Apostles, Annanias and Saphira played false to the Holy spirit...
  
  Dale: How long did it take them? How long did it take them?
  
  Elder D: Well, it would be nice if we had the opportunity to take the life force out of them for doing that sort of thing, but, quite frankly, we don't have that power, and nobody does today.
  
  Bette: Then why assume the same authority that the Apostles had? No human organization today can safely do that.
  
  Elder D: Timothy made appointments and he was not an apostle.
  
  Bette: But they had apostles with those groups then, but for an organization to make the sort of claims that they do...
  
  Elder D: . . . they worked as a support group for those in the community in the first century.
  
  Dale: But it's the authoritarian control, though it doesn't appear in the New Testament, it doesn't appear in the early church of the first couple of centuries, and it isn't until the later part of the second and early third that you start running into this sort of thing, it's the iron-clad control over peoples minds that causes them to stop thinking.
  
  Elder V: Well, it may very well be as you said, but if that's the way it seemed to me, I'd want out. I would not want to be associated- I don't care how many kids of mine. How many relatives- with an attitude like you two have. Go on, get out
  
  Bette: I have in fact had to say good-bye to my mother and brother, and I'm willing to do that because my integrity to Jehovah is more important. But at the same time, reading the Bible, I feel that the way Jehovah's Witnesses handle shunning is unscriptural, and I'm not about to cooperate in an unscriptural application which keeps me from carrying out my scriptural obligations.
  
  Elder D: I'm aware of your views - some religious organizations do exercise mind control. Nonetheless it was our earnest intention to see if there wasn't some point we could find some positive thing. I've done some work or researching your letter. It's not completed, but some day I would like to share it with you.
  
  Bette: That's what I would like to see.
  
  Elder D: But, quite frankly, that doesn't stop our... quite frankly, one of the things that I used to say to people is that when people are positive about the way they feel, and you can call it control of information, thought control...
  
  Bette: Mind control.
  
  Elder D: Yes, I've studied mind control too, I went to some higher education, but I had some opportunity to see how it works, the deprogramming and so forth1 so I'm familiar with how it works, and your correlation to the Watchtower Society and the way it deals with people, even though some of the essential ingredients are similar, in no way are they the same. What draws us together, there's a bond of love based upon our mutual affection for our father in heaven. Quite frankly, I would have a hard time believing that the first century Christians were not operating similarly [to JW's] despite what you've been saying. Quite frankly, they were well defined, there was usually one in every community.
  
  Dale: They were autonomous.
  
  Elder D: No, they were not.
  
  Dale: You need to read some history.
  
  Elder D: When one was disfellowshipped by one congregation, they were also viewed in the same position somewhere else, and that's not autonomous.
  
  Dale: There's only one place in the Scriptures that talk about it...
  
  Elder J: One congregation sends a letter and it is distributed.. ..[He is talking about the Corinthian Letters being circulated]
  
  Dale: Well, after the fact, it was only 2 months later.
  
  Elder D: How many examples do you need?
  
  Dale: Well, it was the congregation's responsibility to do it.
  
  Elder D: Jehovah's Witnesses congregations are somewhat autonomous...
  
  Dale: Oh, no no no no no
  
  Elder D: Well, that's your view -- that's your view. You must realize that the time must come....
  
  Dale: Well, upon what scriptural basis would you base that on?
  
  Elder D: You know exactly.
  
  Dale: No, you tell me, what scripture, I want to hear it from you!
  
  Elder D: You understand.
  
  Dale: Have I slandered? Have I committed adultery? Have I bowed down to an idol? That's 1st Corinthians. Do you have a basis there?
  
  Elder D: The charges brought against you are for apostasy
  
  Dale: And that's being an anti-Christ, right? Have I denied that Jesus came in the flesh?
  
  Bette: Or that he is the Son of God?
  
  Dale: Or that he died for our sins?
  
  Elder D: No.
  
  Dale: That's right, I haven't. You haven't proven me Scripturally wrong on the questions I've raised. You've just disagreed with what I've said. I may be wrong on some doctrinal point, but I know where I stand with Jesus Christ.
  
  Elder D: The long and the short of it will be, quite frankly, not whatever action this group takes, but what happens in the long run as far as all of our everlasting future is concerned.
  
  Dale: I'm very sure of that.
  
  Elder D: And you need to be, quite frankly, you need to be... .there will be quite a number of Jehovah's Witnesses, quite frankly, who will not survive...
  
  Dale: What are you going to do when those people who were living in 1914 are dead and gone? There's not many left.
  
  Elder J: Well, I guess we'll know pretty soon who is right.
  
  _________________________________________________________________________
  
  The meeting ended shortly thereafter, with the usual promise, "We will get back to you with our decision. It is not hard to imagine what that will be. For the record, I will say that these men conducted themselves amicably throughout the discussion, and at the end, thanked us for being pleasant. That is not normally the case where "apostasy" is concerned. In fact, lam surprised that they even allowed themselves to hear some of the points we presented. However, they seemed deathly afraid to tackle the challenge that chronology presents to their entire belief system. I think that on some deeper level, they must know, or at least suspect the truth. It is a difficult matter for one to face, and they have been well trained in denial.
  
  For those of you reading this who have never been Witnesses, you might wonder why not just resign and avoid all of this? It has to do with the Witness practice of shunning. What started out as a way to express congregational disapproval of immorality, has degenerated into a "political weapon" to quell dissent, or questions of Biblical interpretation. They are deathly afraid of any information that might upset the "lock-step" unity of thought and action" mind-set of the Witness ranks. When one is disfellowshipped, or officially "disassociates" himself, he is treated as an anti-Christ in accordance with 2 John 10,11. While we can endure the loss of our many Witness friends, these can be replaced, being cut off by one's immediate family members can be tragic -- not only for us, but also for children, parents, grandparents, and grandchildren. For these are forced to deny their natural feelings and bend to the will of the organization, believing that "God wants them to." When one considers that many families around the world who have been touched by this practice, the broken marriages, the dismembered families, the psychological trauma which in many cases had lead to suicide, one can begin to appreciate the truly evil nature of this phenomena. And all because one has chosen to follow the dictates of his conscience.
  
  Although the early Christians did, on occasion, discipline members of the congregation who were grossly immoral, there is no evidence that they used the practice to control and hold onto their members. Jesus said that his followers would be the ones cast out, not the ones doing the casting out. It is our hope that one day soon a way will be found to stop this unchristian practice.