Posts by trebor

15

For those that carry on as JWs secretly not believing.....

by snare&racket in

jw
friends

my heart goes out for all people stuck in all high control groups, either with insight into the falsehood of their beliefs or none.. to remain a member whilst knowing it false however, must be soul destroying.. my question is, would you carry on living the lie if you discovered that we get one life, one go at existing.

it's short, it's fragile and nobody in 100 years will care we even existed..... .......if you came to that realisation would you quit?.

.......if you had children, would you leave in order to set them an example in strength and appreciation of the short time we enjoy?.

trebor

We are fortunate to live in a time that they can't torture and kill us for our dissent but I firmly believe that if they were in power and could get away with it we would be hunted and executed. Why wait for god and the angels when you can do it now would be their cry.

Indeed:

The Watchtower, November 15, 1952, page 703, Questions from Readers:

"In the case of where a father or mother or son or daughter is disfellowshipped [disassociated], how should such person be treated by members of the family in their family relationship?

We are not living today among theocratic nations where such members of our fleshly family relationship could be exterminated for apostasy from God and his theocratic organization, as was possible and was ordered in the nation of Israel in the wilderness of Sinai and in the land of Palestine. . . Being limited by the laws of the worldly nation in which we live and also by the laws of God through Jesus Christ, we can take action against apostates only to a certain extent, that is, consistent with both sets of laws. The law of the land and God’s law through Christ forbid us to kill apostates, even though they be members of our own flesh-and-blood family relationship. However, God’s law requires us to recognize their being disfellowshipped from his congregation."

SOURCE: http://savedfromthewatchtower.blogspot.com/2009/05/shun-hate-kill.html

11

Comment from Examining the WT Daily May 22

by Dreamerdude in

somehow i missed this silly comment in the wt study las year.

i just have been daydreaming.

but wt wants tomane sure i get the point.. "after the death of the apostles, satan fomented apostasy, which flourished for many centuries.

trebor

The answer(s) will vary, depending on what year and what publication you are referencing.

Even within the same year, they may provided two different perspectives respecting the [S]lave, harvest, and similar topics. Here are some examples with references:

Light A: Progressive light - It always gets brighter. [Watchtower July 15, 1960 paragraph 14, page 435 bound volume]

OR

Light B: Flickered out - Slave was in spiritual darkness - inactivity at one point - requiring restoration. [Watchtower July 15, 1960 paragraph 17, page 435 bound volume; Watchtower July 15, 1960 paragraph 20, page 436 bound volume]

Event A: In 1919, released and blessed with greater privileges since they were now cleansed from any religious defilement. [Watchtower July 1, 1982 paragraph 21, page 24]

OR

Event B: In 1919, the slave continued to lead and promote Pagan ideas and practices for decades later. [Watchtower January 1, 1940 page 16; Jehovah’s Witnesses: Proclaimers of God’s Kingdom, page 198]

Feeding A: Slave fed itself as well as every generation thereafter with all members of the slave being fed well spiritually. [Watchtower January 15, 1975 page 46, bound volume]

OR

Feeding B: Slave unable to feed anyone as they were scattered or isolated with the death of the Apostles and associating with false religion. They needed to come into historic view again. [Watchtower July 15, 1960 page 435, bound volume; Watchtower February 15, 1980 paragraph 12, page 16]

Status A: Remained loyal resulting in the evil slave never dominated them. [Watchtower, February 15, 1975 page 109, 110 bound volume]

OR

Status B: Remained loyal but become part of weed-like Christendom and temporarily disappeared from view. [Watchtower July 1, 1994 page 5]

Source: http://savedfromthewatchtower.blogspot.com/2008/12/faithful-and-discreet-slave-which-one.html

69

The 1995 Generation Change

by sloppyjoe2 in

jw
friends

i was just a teenager and have a vivid memory of sitting in a chair doing a microphone for the sunday meeting.

everyone was commenting that it didn't mean the end was far off, and it didn't change the condition of the dead, or the 144,000, or the trinity so we should still remain faithful.

this is my first memory as a kid being just a teen that i ever had a single doubt.

trebor

Ah, yes...The good ol' 'Generation' teaching...

Let's take a look at the Watchtower Society's teaching of 'generation', from a longer historical perspective:

Generation (Mathew 24:34)...

-1927 = The Anointed
[Watchtower February 15, 1927 page 62]

-1942 = Anyone alive to see 1914
[Watchtower July 1, 1942 page 204]

-1995 = Wicked People alive today
[Watchtower November 1, 1995 page 19]

-2008 = The Anointed
[Watchtower February 15, 2008 page 24]

-2010 = Overlap Generations of the Anointed since 1914
[Watchtower April 15, 2010 page 10]

Source: http://savedfromthewatchtower.blogspot.com/2010/01/next-generation-is-this-generation.html

I recall more than a few coming up to me in shock. Even one asking me directly, "Do you know what this means?" My 'toe the line' response was we must continue to follow the organization no matter what. Unfortunately, it would take more than a dozen years later for me to finally wake up.

13

587 vs 607: JW sources only

by wifibandit in

the latest jw podcast has inspired me to update the copypasta comment that i post anytime this topic comes up.. i have formatted it to more closely follow the wonderful www.jwfacts.com table.

i have also added a few more links directly to the jw online library.

"evil-merodach reigned two years" w65 1/1 p. 29.

trebor

JW Sources Only...

Taken from here: http://savedfromthewatchtower.blogspot.com/2008/11/1914-part-i-607-bc.html

*Utilizes only 1 Bible passage (2 verses), 2 Society publications, basic math, and simplified explanations.*

When Jerusalem fell is documented in the Bible at 2 Kings 25:8-9:

"And in the fifth month on the seventh [day] of the month, that is to say, the nineteenth year of King Nebuchadnezzar the king of Babylon, Nebuzaradan the chief of the bodyguard, the servant of the king of Babylon, came to Jerusalem. And he proceeded to burn the house of Jehovah and the king's house and all the houses of Jerusalem; and the house of every great man he burned with fire."

The nineteenth year of King Nebuchadnezzar rule is when Jerusalem fell.

What year is the nineteenth year of King Nebuchadnezzar?

This can be deduced with the aid of referencing two of the Watchtower Society’s publications. The first publication is Insight on the Scriptures. On page 457 in Volume 2 under ‘Nabonidus’ it states the following:

"Last supreme monarch of the Babylonian Empire; father of Belshazzar. On the basis of cuneiform texts he is believed to have ruled some 17 years (556-539 B.C.E.). He was given to literature, art, and religion."

The second reference, the Watchtower Society's publication Babylon the Great Has Fallen - God's Kingdom Rules on page 184 it states:

"After reigning but two years King Evil-Merodach was murdered by his brother-in-law Neriglissar. According to the inscriptions that have been found, this usurper of the throne spent most of his time in building operations and reigned four years. When he died, his son Labashi-Marduk, though not yet of age, succeeded him. He was a vicious boy, and within nine months he had his throat cut by an assassin. Nabonidus, who had served as Governor of Babylon and who had been Nebuchadnezzar's favorite son-in-law, now took the throne and had a fairly glorious reign till Babylon fell in 539 B.C."

Take into consideration along with the above information that both Historical data and the Watchtower Society agree that Nebuchadnezzar ruled for a period of 43 years...

Insight on the Scriptures, page 480 in Volume 2 under ‘Nebuchadnezzar’:

"Nebuchadnezzar ruled as king for 43 years"

Now let’s gather the above information...

539 B.C. = Year Babylon Fell

Prior to the fall of Babylon, the history of its rulership is as follows:

17 years = Rulership of Nabonidus

1 year (9 months) = Rulership of Labashi-Marduk

4 years = Rulership of Neriglissar

2 years = Rulership of Evil-Merodach

43 years = Rulership of Nebuchadnezzar

Doing the math with the above facts:

539 + 17 + 1 +4 + 2 + 43 = 606

NOTE: We add here because we are tracing back the years of rulership. During B.C. years to go back in history you add years, to go forward in history you subtract years.

Therefore, 606 B.C. would be the year Nebuchadnezzar starts to rule.

Going back to our scripture in 2 Kings 25: 8, 9, it was during Nebuchadnezzar’s 19th year that Jerusalem fell.

Doing that math:

606 - 19 = 587

NOTE: We subtract here because time is progressing during Nebuchadnezzar’s reign. The years decrease not increase, as we are calculating B.C. years and not A.D. years.

From the above, 587 B.C. would be the year Jerusalem fell.

53

Display of National Flags in Kingdom Halls in Chile: WTS' Response

by BluesBrother in

remember this and other threads a few months back, on the subject that some kingdom halls in chile acquiesced to govt rules that every building should display the national flag on the day of celebration?.

http://www.jehovahs-witness.com/topic/262505/kingdom-hall-chile-has-national-flag?size=20&page=1.

many of us here and around the net, calling on our dub experiences cried "never would that happen!

trebor

Where and whenever the Watchtower believes there is a high potential for more members they bend the rules. That is why Africa got the no go with the Political Card, but Mexico got they okay on bending alliance with the government. Chile is another country where the same potential is seen.

You see a similar bend in the rules when it comes to Pinatas...

http://savedfromthewatchtower.blogspot.com/2009/06/pinatas-harmless-fun.html

September 22, 2003, Awake!, page 24, 'The Piñata - An Ancient Tradition':

"We found that for many people in Mexico, the piñata has lost its religious significance and is considered by most to be just harmless fun...A main concern is, not what the practice meant hundreds of years ago, but how it is viewed today in your area. Understandably, opinions may vary from one place to another. Hence, it is wise to avoid turning such matters into big issues."

The above is their stance despite the fact that Piñatas are steeped with both very strong religious ties and pagan origins.

13

So, dead members of the 144,000 help direct the preaching work from beyond the grave?

by Zoos in

did i understand that right?

was that a claim rutherford made?.

i don't suppose anyone has that quote..

trebor

"Truth" from the dead, believed then and now...

http://savedfromthewatchtower.blogspot.com/2009/02/truth-from-dead.html

Revelation – Its Grand Climax At Hand! - Both the original 1988 and 2006 revision - on page 125 it states:

“It is fitting, then, that one of the 24 elders representing anointed ones already in heaven, should stir John's thinking...(Revelation 7:13, 14a) Yes, that elder could locate the answer and give it to John. This suggests that resurrected ones of the 24-elders group may be involved in the communicating of divine truths today.”

[NOTE: 24-elders group = 144,000]

32

HELP! Elder bombarded me with scripture...& I don't know what to do.

by Smoky in

i have been lurking on this site for many years.

i rarely post anything, because my english isnt the best and not sure if anyone understands.

i just recently had a run in with an elder, have not seen him in a few years.

trebor

"...according to their interpretation of the bible"

That's where it begins and ends, my friend. The Bible is ambiguous enough, in a plethora of places, that you can grab (also known as cherry-picking) a verse or two, even entire passages and apply it in a variety of ways, if one desires.

The Watchtower has its interpretation (along with its own translation of the Bible) and the Elder believes it is "truth". Neither his belief nor does anyone else’s have any power over you, unless you allow it.

47

i was happy before i woke up

by losingit in

jw
friends

idk if waking up has been good for me.

i still have almost no friends.

im still waiting to graduate this december to qualify n b certified for my job.

trebor

-An organization that instructs and tells women to treat their rapist respectfully, and a woman is guilty of everlasting death if they do not scream/yell/cry out when being raped: http://savedfromthewatchtower.blogspot.com/2008/11/what-would-watchtower-society-have.html

-Children of various ages such as 2, 4, 12, 14, and 15 years old - DEAD - all because of following an organization who they/their parents/guardian are led to believe is speaking for God: http://savedfromthewatchtower.blogspot.com/2010/04/blood-guilty.html

-1961 = Organ Transplants = Conscience choice.
1967 = Organ Transplants = Cannibalistic.
1980 = Organ Transplants = Conscience choice.

People died for no reason outside of arbitrary thoughts on life and death matter. No apology, no "we were wrong", just post a 180 degree policy change under "Question For Readers": http://savedfromthewatchtower.blogspot.com/2008/11/in-questions-from-readers-section-in.html

-Covering-up and essentially lying about utilizing and referencing a known practicer of spiritism in support of their doctrine and teachings: http://savedfromthewatchtower.blogspot.com/2008/11/influence-of-johannes-greber.html

-Claim that - "the truth" (which they placed in quotes and is the loaded language used by the members that refers to the teachings/beliefs of the organization) - has become part of the Bible: http://savedfromthewatchtower.blogspot.com/2008/12/watchtower-part-of-bible.html

-Inserting the business originating term "governing body" into their latest version of the Watchtower Society's Bible as a valid reference: http://savedfromthewatchtower.blogspot.com/2013/10/a-new-bible-revised-2013-new-world.html

-Elders, after praying, *will have* God's view: http://savedfromthewatchtower.blogspot.com/2013/01/elders-view-is-gods-view.html

The list goes on-and-on. If first century Christians were anything like the above, that is truly sad. The Watchtower Society accepts no blame and is never sorry. It is always "some brothers", "some chrisitans", "some may of had the wrong view". Never, the "governing body was wrong" or "we are sorry". They change doctine and flip-flop with no apology: http://savedfromthewatchtower.blogspot.com/2008/12/flip-flops.html

47

i was happy before i woke up

by losingit in

jw
friends

idk if waking up has been good for me.

i still have almost no friends.

im still waiting to graduate this december to qualify n b certified for my job.

trebor

losingit,

I'm still paying the consequences of failing at being a Witness.

For now on, instead of stating "a Witness", fill it with a more descriptive term of what 'a Witness' was all about.

Try some of these:

I'm still paying the consequences of failing at being...

...a supporter of the Watch Tower Bible Tract Society Inc.

...a cult member

...a believer that 99.9% are wrong/evil and 0.1% are right/good.

...a person who can ignore numerous failed prophecies.

...a person who can overlook numerous flip-flops in doctrine and teaching.

...a believer that the business originating term of 'governing body' pertains to a select few who God has appointed to direct "His" people.

...a cherry-picker and follower of those who cherry-pick to suit their agenda and beliefs.

You did not fail at anything good, healthy or true. An accurate description of your scenario is:

"I'm still paying the consequences for those who fail to see the actual truth and continue to comply with the demands of the Watchtower Society".

The real failures are those who are trying to bring you down and make you feel bad for standing up for truth and honesty. Do not allow them to have that kind of control, at the very least, do not allow them to warp your perception and discernment of what you know is right.

You have learned from your mistake, do not allow others who continue to make the same mistakes and/or insist they have made no mistake, convince you to return to a high level control group with cult tendencies. You're better than that.

51

The limits of science.

by Seraphim23 in

jw
friends

for a long time i have accepted that when a theist inserts god into some as yet not understood scientific matter, it constitutes a god of the gaps argument.

as a theist myself, the problem with this for me, is that it implies an arbitrary limit on gods ingenuity.

for example, the idea that god created automatic processes to do certain things in nature, and yet with other things the need for a direct hand to either tweak or directly organise!

trebor

Playing somewhat of devil's advocate here...

"The talk challenges our materialistic belief system...The War On Consciousness Explained":

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y0c5nIvJH7w