Posts by gubberningbody

44

Ray Franz on Fear Among JWs

by compound complex in

to this day, in all countries, any persons among jehovah's witnesses who find they cannot conscientiously support fully the organization's teachings or practices live in a climate of fear, feeling they must constantly be on guard as to what they say, what they do, what they read, with whom they associate, from whom they receive letters, not feeling any sense of freedom even when among personal friends or close relatives if these are also witnesses.

as stated, in my personal experience i have had people phone who were afraid to give their name or who felt it necessary to use a fictitious name, some who even felt it necessary to take out a special post office box to be able to correspond without danger of their correspondence with me or other former witnesses being discovered.

they face a form of "hostage" situation, produced by the organization's authority.

gubberningbody

Exactly. What's confirmatory for me on this is that I concluded that this was the case long before I looked at anything negative on the internet. My reply once to someone (before I was baptized) was ..."If someone is so galactically stupid that it takes them 30 years to figure out that something isn't the truth, then they have absolutely nothing to say."

Now I know a bit more about the gradualy process of unconscious indoctrination whereby those engaged in the same don't realize that they are engaging in it themselves.

23

How would you respond to a Witness calling worldly people "wicked?"

by BonaFide in

jw
friends

this morning in the field ministry a brother in our car group was talking about wicked people.

i asked him what he thinks of when he says "wicked people.

" (i am working undercover) he said, "those that don't worship jehovah.".

gubberningbody

"How do you feel you can best help those whom you work with?"

I'd ignore the knee-jerk language used.

180

Does Roman Catholicism Teach The "Truth"?

by minimus in

jw
friends

out of all mainstream religions, roman catholicism seems to be the most cultic to me, even more so than jehovah's witnesses in certain ways.. the belief in transubstantiation , i think that's how it's spelled, is weird!

the attire of the clergy is satanic looking.

the view of papal authority is not that much different than a jw's view of "the slave".. .

gubberningbody

I was a Catholic, went to parochial school, was an altar boy... and in my view the JW's today mirror the Catholic church during the time of the Spanish Inquistition (without images, the trinity, the garb, and the rites). Today the Catholic church is more tolerant and less oppressive than JW's. I would never return, however I've found more pluralistic openmindedness among Catholics than I ever have among any protestant denomination (except the Unitarians), and perhaps the Methodists and Quakers.

24

Why would a transcendent God do anything?

by gubberningbody in

i'm stuck on that one.

the answer "love" isn't a serious answer because you can't love without an object (unless it's self love)..

gubberningbody

Jeff, I've heard people use the term "human logic" before, and I understand the sentiments behind the usage, but the definition is what makes for logic. A thing exists or it doesn't. (unless you speak of a collective, in which case, some things can be coming into or out of existence).

I know of no realm where 1+1 is something other than 2. I need not scour the universe for examples where this might be false because this statement is not an empirical statement, it is a statement of definition.

Having said this, I have to assert that my usage of logic is that defined by a finite series. A transcendent God is said not to be contingent, therefore fully explaining "why" with regard to any of his actions implies that he is contingent, and since this cannot be true, we have to say also that the reasons have to be transcendent as well which would then become a series of endless "becauses" which means we could approach an answer to the question, and yet never get the answer.

I know this, and yet I don't want to accept this because it makes no sense, and it cannot make sense because it would have to be experienced in a transcendent moment...

How can a contingent being experience noncontingency so as to be able to have the volume necessary to contain the answer?

24

Why would a transcendent God do anything?

by gubberningbody in

i'm stuck on that one.

the answer "love" isn't a serious answer because you can't love without an object (unless it's self love)..

gubberningbody

Narkissos, for me this is THE question. (and one that is invariably papered over by people who always miss the point of the question by making all manner of unwarranted assumptions)

I've heard...

"Because God has no free will. He had no choice." (reminds me of the answer a physicist gave as to why there was something instead of nothing..."Because nothing is unstable.")

The answer then creates a bizarre cascade (we cannot have free will either then) ultimately eliminating the existence of sin and evil as being simply a wrong way of looking at events, but this snakes back around to the usage of the term 'wrong' because lacking free will, it makes no sense to refer to wrong or right.

I've also heard...

"Because God wants to experience death and the only way he can do this is vicariously."

I understand that some jewish sages suggested that creation was so that God could exist and experience the world that he created (which makes no sense)

I suspect that any question that asks "Why" in this case where there can be no eternal "Because's" (no existence of actual infinities, only potential infinities) will be faced with a definitionally irrational reply. No rational answer can be given because a rational answer is a finite series. At the end we're faced with a God whose action of creation seems to be one that can never be understood in any logical sense, nor would I image that it would be possible to speak of it. I think it would just have to be experienced. I often thought that reconnecting with the transcendent in this way would be the only way possible to "experience an answer". Once that answer was experienced, I would imagine that the answers to all other questions would seem superfluous.

The question of course for me at that time would be... "Is what I'm experiencing real and true, or just an illusion?"

24

Why would a transcendent God do anything?

by gubberningbody in

i'm stuck on that one.

the answer "love" isn't a serious answer because you can't love without an object (unless it's self love)..

gubberningbody

I'm stuck on that one. The answer "love" isn't a serious answer because you can't love without an object (unless it's self love).

20

Pre-Armageddon vs Post-Armageddon

by Nosferatu in

jw
friends

what really is the difference between before armageddon and after armageddon?

before armageddon:.

- devoting our lives to doing jehovah's work (spread the good news).

gubberningbody

Pre - everyone thinks they're right and others are wrong

Post - everyone realizes that everyone was wrong

Pre - God hates diversity

Post - God loves diversity, we're the ones who had problems with it

Pre - Everything in the Bible was inspired

Post - No. Some things were, some weren't , and all wrong to one degree or other but you were crazy so you wouldn't have understood if it had been explained to you.

3

What Is The Worse or Weirdest Thing Happened To You During Field Service?

by Yizuman in

jw
friends

did you have something go bad on you or encountered something really weird while you're out knocking on doors or somewhere in between?.

yiz.

gubberningbody

I'd say it was the worst thing for the HH.

Like the bible says, when there are two or more - there I am in your midst.

I was pioneering, working alone, I come to a guy in his yard, he comes to me at the fence, smiles brightly and says "sure I'll take those magazines" and then he says after he has them "so I can toss them away..."

I don't know what happened, but I got mad at that and jumped his fence, chased him down in his yard and while he was on his back, I took the magazines out of his hands...

I said... No you don't buddy, those are MY magazines...

He said something like,"you interrupted me while I was mowing"

then I said "and you lied to me with your smiling face..."

Somehow I'm not sure the WTS would have approved.

23

What happens if your DF'ed at the Big A

by sooner7nc in

the question is actually, what does the borg say or think as regards persons who have been df'ed who have shown repentance, but have not been reinstated at the time of the big a, or die in an accident, sudden illness, etc.

while df'ed.

do these persons get raised from the dead, or are they sol because of the vagaries of time and circumstance?

gubberningbody

The insanity of some witnesses really got to me...

"Uncle so and so dies...GREAT! Now he'll get a resurrection!"

They never think it through....

So you have a "worldly" man with a family who died accidentally just before Armageddon - he gets resurrected, he looks around and sees everyone else getting their loved ones back from the grave and he says...

"Where's my wife?.... Where's my little baby girl?"

And he's told...

"Oh, them?...They were wicked so God had to kill them with hailstones and lightning bolts. They tried to hide under a collapsed bridge but the angel Gabriel spotted them and nailed them."

This man responds...

"My wife wasn't wicked...and neither was my little girl!"

He's told...

"Hey! Zip it you, you're lucky to be alive. Now why don't you go eat some of that fruit in that basket over there with the others who are rejoicing and pet a lion or two...mkay?"

32

The Issue of Christ as Mediator

by passwordprotected in

i think i've hit on why the wts love to downplay christ's role as mediator.

it's not just so that they can have their two classes of christians.

they have to downplay this aspect of christ because it throws up the issue of his divinity.. who is christ mediating for?.

gubberningbody

in my above post, I'm sure you'll get that I meant Jesus didn't do an act of worship to Satan... (I wish we could edit. I hate spelling errors and I'd prefer not having to use White Smoke for all my posts)