Another thought @ Sab
What exactly are you asking people to accept? (genuine question).
GromitSK
JoinedPosts by GromitSK
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95
An interesting article on scientific explanations of near-death / out-of-body experiences
by cedars ini've been doing quite a bit of research into books recently, and i've noticed that the book "proof of heaven" is selling very strongly at the moment.
it's currently no.1 in the new york times bestseller list for nonfiction paperbacks.. the book is by a qualified neurosurgeon who converted to religious faith after going into a coma and having what he later described as an experience of heaven, which he elaborates on in great detail in the book.
he argues that the experience must have been supernatural, because his cerebral cortex was "offline" for the duration of his vision.. .
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95
An interesting article on scientific explanations of near-death / out-of-body experiences
by cedars ini've been doing quite a bit of research into books recently, and i've noticed that the book "proof of heaven" is selling very strongly at the moment.
it's currently no.1 in the new york times bestseller list for nonfiction paperbacks.. the book is by a qualified neurosurgeon who converted to religious faith after going into a coma and having what he later described as an experience of heaven, which he elaborates on in great detail in the book.
he argues that the experience must have been supernatural, because his cerebral cortex was "offline" for the duration of his vision.. .
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GromitSK
Yes, and such is one of the inherent problems that faces the whole of humanity. Jesus was reported saying to "be like children" when before God and that's because they are so trusting and faithful.
Didn't Jesus also allegedly say something about being 'as wise as serpents'? Children are generally seen as being in need of protection - why is that? Because they are vulnerable and there are people who will take advantage of them. I don't think you are suggesting we all accept wide-eyed and uncritically any claim to the supernatural that sounds like it might be true? By the same token, I personally don't think it is reasonable to automatically adopt the view that it definitely is not true (unless we know that for a fact) - why not just reserve judgement? True/likely/unlikely/possible/impossible/false are quite useful measures.
Taking the fact that you say you were in McDonalds OOB (for example), is something that can be taken or left. A person may believe you or not. If they don't have any evidence but your word, and they don't know you, and have never experienced anything themselves is clearly unwise. If they start to shape their life around that belief though, and that is all they have or similar testimony from other - they are embarking on a very dangerous path and have potentiall surrendered their thinking process to another person. That's how many of us on here got into this mess in the first place, that person may have been a parent, devoted to their view of God and genuinely seeing their child's best interest - but they were wrong and potentially wasted many years of their lives and their children's (and in some cases their entire lives) on the basis of 'just knowing they were doing the right thing'.
I think if God made itself clearly known to most folks they would accept what they were being told. The problem is, he/she/it doesn't.
everything laid out before us by God should be freely digested without question
Frankly I don't follow the logic here. Whether there is even a 'God' at all is debateable in the minds of many. Digestion requires processing; if I eat it doesn't just turn into muscle/skin/bone or energy - there is a process to reach that stage. Conviction about OOB/the existence of God/whether a perceived communication is from God or not - requires a process before that information is useful. That process is a rational assessment of the experience. This will vary from person to person depending on the degree of proof they personally need. Trying to convince another person to be convinced because I accept the level of evidence I have is like offering them my toothbrush frankly.
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86
Are JW'S "hated" in all the world? Or...are they considered IRRELEVANT?
by Terry inwathctower 90/1/1 p. 12 par.
8 not ashamed of the good news .
while it is true that jehovahs witnesses are hated and opposed in all the nations of the earth, this is in fulfillment of what was foretold to be an identifying mark of genuine worshipers of the one living and true god.
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GromitSK
I don't think people hate them. I think they 'nothing' them (Scrubs).
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95
An interesting article on scientific explanations of near-death / out-of-body experiences
by cedars ini've been doing quite a bit of research into books recently, and i've noticed that the book "proof of heaven" is selling very strongly at the moment.
it's currently no.1 in the new york times bestseller list for nonfiction paperbacks.. the book is by a qualified neurosurgeon who converted to religious faith after going into a coma and having what he later described as an experience of heaven, which he elaborates on in great detail in the book.
he argues that the experience must have been supernatural, because his cerebral cortex was "offline" for the duration of his vision.. .
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GromitSK
@sab you may be correct that asking for veridical evidence is, for some, simply a device to allow them to adopt an opposing position to the existence of a 'spiritual realm'. I don't think that is the case for others, possibly the majority. People simply need to see something for themselves rather than have a stranger, no matter how elevated, tell them it is so.
in such cases, your or my own subjective experience does not have much, if any, evidential value for those who do not know us. If a person simply wants to describe their experience to others that's fine but they ought to expect some form of deconstruction from others who are not convinced it is possible and look for alternative explanations. I think that's perfectly sensible tbh.
From my own perspective, I agree there is a great deal of evidence of various forms that suggest we may survive physical death. I also think it is insufficient to prove that this is the case, at least not beyond reasonable doubt.
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95
An interesting article on scientific explanations of near-death / out-of-body experiences
by cedars ini've been doing quite a bit of research into books recently, and i've noticed that the book "proof of heaven" is selling very strongly at the moment.
it's currently no.1 in the new york times bestseller list for nonfiction paperbacks.. the book is by a qualified neurosurgeon who converted to religious faith after going into a coma and having what he later described as an experience of heaven, which he elaborates on in great detail in the book.
he argues that the experience must have been supernatural, because his cerebral cortex was "offline" for the duration of his vision.. .
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GromitSK
@sabastious - whilst I would agree there is a lot of testimony supporting an afterlife relating to NDEs, your simply stating it is true so 'get used to it' isn't really going to persuade those who don't share your view, as I'm sure you realise. Just because a person really believes their experience was what they think it was, doesn't make it so. Even if it is 'so', without some independent corroborating evidence, the experience is unlikely to have much evidential value to those who haven't experienced something similar, not should it IMHO.
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95
An interesting article on scientific explanations of near-death / out-of-body experiences
by cedars ini've been doing quite a bit of research into books recently, and i've noticed that the book "proof of heaven" is selling very strongly at the moment.
it's currently no.1 in the new york times bestseller list for nonfiction paperbacks.. the book is by a qualified neurosurgeon who converted to religious faith after going into a coma and having what he later described as an experience of heaven, which he elaborates on in great detail in the book.
he argues that the experience must have been supernatural, because his cerebral cortex was "offline" for the duration of his vision.. .
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GromitSK
I read the summary of this book and couldn't see any signs of veridical evidence of survival in it (the summary and reviews on amazon). I suppose it is interesting that he is a neurophysiologist of some sort but frankly the mind/brain relationship discussion is already to be found in so many places, I'm not sure what he can add from his subjective perspective. There are probably thousands of similar reports of experiences out there. I think I'd be prepared to accept that he had some sort of (for him) significant experience however what that really means to everyone else I can't see. Maybe I would if I bought the book but it sounds hyped to me and that turns me off plus the reviews, even the positive ones, don't whet my appetite.
On the other hand I can't really see his motive; He appears to be successful in his field. Presumably he is well-off financially. I can't see how this can possibly enhance his professional credentials. Who knows?
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My Story - Part 1 - by 88JM
by 88JM inintroduction.
so here is the first part of my story as promised.
i apologise in advance because i know this is going to be much longer than it needs to be.
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GromitSK
I will keep my eyes peeled :) - and you're welcome. Frankly I wish I had never heard of the sodding witnesses lol
don't worry about how long the story is - it's good therapy.
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My Story - Part 1 - by 88JM
by 88JM inintroduction.
so here is the first part of my story as promised.
i apologise in advance because i know this is going to be much longer than it needs to be.
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GromitSK
Very interstesting as a nearish neighbour :)
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116
God gave them up to disgraceful sexual appetites - What does the bible REALLY teach?
by irondork inthat is why god gave them up to disgraceful sexual appetites, for both their females changed the natural use of themselves into one contrary to nature;and likewise even the males left the natural use of the female and became violently inflamed in their lust toward one another, males with males, working what is obscene and receiving in themselves the full recompense, which was due for their error.
romans 1:26,27.
(excerpts from: homosexianity by r. d. weekly for the sake of familiarity, scripture quotations appearing in the book were replaced with the new world translation) http://www.amazon.com/homosexianity-letting-devastating-scripture-orientation/dp/1442163062/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=utf8&qid=1356175321&sr=1-1&keywords=homosexianity.
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GromitSK
@irondork - you're wasting you're breath mate. Good try tho :)
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116
God gave them up to disgraceful sexual appetites - What does the bible REALLY teach?
by irondork inthat is why god gave them up to disgraceful sexual appetites, for both their females changed the natural use of themselves into one contrary to nature;and likewise even the males left the natural use of the female and became violently inflamed in their lust toward one another, males with males, working what is obscene and receiving in themselves the full recompense, which was due for their error.
romans 1:26,27.
(excerpts from: homosexianity by r. d. weekly for the sake of familiarity, scripture quotations appearing in the book were replaced with the new world translation) http://www.amazon.com/homosexianity-letting-devastating-scripture-orientation/dp/1442163062/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=utf8&qid=1356175321&sr=1-1&keywords=homosexianity.
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GromitSK
Hear hear @irondork
in some ways the general view of religions towards gay people has helped me to separate myself from them completely. Having been a religious person, as for many others, the process was painful at the time however I'd rather not be involved with organisations that accept me grudgingly at best. Most gay people know that their orientation is not a choice. The path of life for many of us can be very difficult. It would be easier in many ways to conform to the religious models, but it would be a deception.
The truth seems to me that if there is a God, I doubt very much any of the organised religions or 'holy' texts represent it. The truth can indeed set you free :)