HI!!!!!!!! We are still about - busy setting up a new life and enjoying it so far. And we have not had one knock at the door so far! Everything is going pretty good.
individual
JoinedPosts by individual
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Individual & wife
by ballistic indoes anyone know whatever happened to them?
i know they were moving house and was hoping to get to emans bbq but i haven't seen them post since??
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BEFORE YOU LEFT......
by In_between_days inanother question.. this one is for all those that began doubting the organisation when they were an obedient jw.. although i am sure you rarely shared it with anyone, what was the one problem you had with a certain jw only doctrine?.
what i mean is, what little gremlins lurked at the back of your mind?
what were the doubts that you kept hidden and what made you finally act on them?.
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individual
An interesting thread. The thing that first made me doubt the org. was when I read a book on volcanoes and earthquakes and to my surprise I found out that there has been a decrease in earthquakes since 1960, with the 60s, 70s and 80s having an unusually low number of major earthquakes around the world. This to me did not fit in with the teaching of the last days and there being an increase in the number of quakes.
The second thing was when I was reading a world history book and I looked up the date of the destruction of Jerusalem and found out that it said 587 and not 607 as the society teaches. I thought that the history book was in error and so I looked it up in every encyclopedia that I could find in my library and they all agreed with 587. I seriously questioned the society on this when I asked the visiting CO why there was a discrepancy in the dates and all he could say was that at least 'our' date was not later than 587 or we would all be in real trouble (as he laughed!) He offered no explanation whatsoever and when I found out that the evidence for 587 is overwhelming even from the scriptures the society for me had lost its credibility, its power over me was severely dented.
It still took me years to leave but the final straw was realising that they do not rely on Christs free gift but instead teach that you earn your salvation. This is exactly what the Pharisees taught and therefore were so berated by Christ. The new CO was very forceful in teaching this, saying that unless you did more hours you would not be saved, he gave several talks on this theme, hammering the congregation. He was the final straw for me, I left. Even when I left I still was worried that they might just be right but now, after having spent the last year studying the scriptures for myself, I realise just how wrong they were about almost everything.
I would advise anybody who doubts the society, but still thinks that they might just have some bible knowledge that other religious groups do not possess, to go along to a Christian book store and pick up some books, i.e bible commentaries, and see for themselves that there are truths in the bible that the JWs haven't seen and will never see.
I find now that I feel sorry for witnesses whom I see as spiritually blind and know how shocked they would feel if they went into a Christian book store and picked up a book on prophecy, opened it and saw a picture of the statue depicted in Daniel with the same world powers shown as they have found in the Watchtower publications. Like them I used to think that this understanding of Daniel was unique to the society and therefore they had the truth. We were led to believe that other religions had no understanding of Daniel whereas now I find that their understanding is far greater than the societies.
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Part 5: The Beginning of the End
by Amazing inpart 5: the beginning of the end .
note: from this point forward begins not only my final journey out of the jws, but even more bizarre and twisted turns in the road.
i hope you all find this interesting, because to me it only gets more intriguing and weird for the 3 12 years following january 1992... moment of decision: i can point back to the mountain top visit with god, or maybe today i might call it a visit with my higher power, whomever she/he/it might be.
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individual
Amazing - really enjoying reading your posts. Better than any of the books written by ex-JWs on why they left. Looking forward to reading the next installment.
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Any suggestions on a Bible and a Bible commentary?
by DB ini currently use the new world translation of the holy scriptures, and it seems to be a pretty good bible.
but i am looking for a good, modern-english version with which to do some comparison reading.
plus, i am looking for a good bible commentary for research.
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individual
Believers Bible Commentary by William McDonald, published by Nelson, ISBN 084071972/8, priced at £25.99 in the UK. Excellent 2004 page commentary, I have several commentaries and this is by far the best in my opinion.
For a bible I would say the NIV version Life Application Study Bible published by Kingsway Publications, ISBN 085476947/1 priced at £29.99 for the soft backed version, again in the UK, should find both of these on Amazon or similar site.
I bought both of these from a Christian bookshop, for a new testament commentary I would suggest the Life Application NT Commentary, published by Tyndale House Publishers, ISBN 0842370668, priced at £23.99, an indepth verse by verse explanation of the new testament in 1275 pages.
Shame these books are so expensive but they are definitely worth it.
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Apostacy!!!
by Bill Parker ini intend to show with this article that the man of lawlessness is the anti-christ and that the activity of this composite person is what constitutes the abomination of desolation.
this shows the anti-christ and the man of lawlessness to be one and the same composite person.
we have seen that the anti-christ exalts himself {not appointed by god} then we learned that the man of lawlessness takes his seat in the temple of god.
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individual
Congratulations on your first post - it summed up from scriptures the fears I had regarding the governing body during my quarter century with the witnesses. I agree with everything you said in it particularly the points regarding theocratic lies and the fact that the governing body has placed itself in the temple by claiming to speak as if God himself were speaking.
I have a question for you - when Christ returns and judges the governing body and therefore responds to them as shown in Matt 24:51 -who will he save and so therefore will form the great crowd? If this whole religion has apostasized will he find a true religion on the earth or a true people?
My understanding of Matt 25:14-30 is that He has given some truth to many different peoples, so that some associations of Christians who have less truth (talents) have less demanded of them upon Christs return. But to the ones (Christian group) that He gave the most He also expected the most from. Verse 30 shows that the servant who misused what Christ has given him has the same result of judgement against him as has the evil servant or the man of lawlessness. To me it showing that ones whom Christ had entrusted with the talents could turn into the evil slave class who still assume that they are standing in Gods temple since verse 30 shows that the worthless servant is only thrown outside into the darkness when Christ has returned and not before.
I see that you have been disassociated for 6 years, so where do you stand now on the question of whom Christ approves of, is there any Christian organisation out there that fulfills His criteria? I would like to know your views on this since your post on the man of lawlessness left this question open.
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WELL WORTH READING: JW's + 144,000
by stevieb1 infound this material on an yahoo egroups site on greek theology on which quite a number of witness apologists contribute.
there is quite a bit of interesting stuff on here, but here is a worthwhile comment made on the 144,000 as they relate to the "fds class" and jw's since 1879. establishes from purely mathematical point of view that the 144,000 cannot be a literal but figurative.
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individual
bjc 2012
Rev 14:4 does indeed say that the 144000 were bought from mankind as firstfruits, but I note that it only says from mankind and not from ALL mankind.
Rev 5:9,10 says that with his blood Christ bought persons out of every tribe and nation. To me the simplest explanation is that this confirmed for 1ST Cent Christians the idea that Christ died for all mankind and was now extending his nation to the gentiles. These are only a few thoughts and are not presented as dogma as I only had them recently whilst dwelling on Revelation and the 144000.
It could be that the ones who died before the Gentiles were to be included were to be resurected to the Earth and that both the 144000 (representing the Jews in the early Christian congregation) and the Gentiles from the time that they were acceptable onward, go to Heaven upon death to rule as Kings and Priests together. This would be the simplest explanation of what John wrote at the end of the 1st Cent.
All of the above are just thoughts I have recently been mulling over whilst applying Okhams Razor and looking for the simplest explanation. -
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WELL WORTH READING: JW's + 144,000
by stevieb1 infound this material on an yahoo egroups site on greek theology on which quite a number of witness apologists contribute.
there is quite a bit of interesting stuff on here, but here is a worthwhile comment made on the 144,000 as they relate to the "fds class" and jw's since 1879. establishes from purely mathematical point of view that the 144,000 cannot be a literal but figurative.
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individual
Heres a thought on the 144,000 - when this was written it had only been about 60 years since the Gentile nations had been accepted into the congregation, before that the chosen people were just Jews. Now if you look at the language used in this scripture it talks of the 144,000 as coming out of the 12 tribes which is indicative of Israel. Now when it talks about the Great Crowd it talks about them as being 'out of all the nations and tribes and peoples and tongues'. Now applying Ockhams razor, the simplest explanation is usually the correct one, it would appear to me that the 144,000 represented the original Jewish nation and the great crowd out of all the nations is representative of the Gentiles. This explanation would make sense since at that time it was a recent idea that the Gentiles were now acceptable to God and John, who wrote Revelation, would have been expanding on this idea in his image of those standing before Gods throne.
So as far as the JWs are concerned I dont think he was referring to two different hopes but instead was just expanding on the idea of the Gentiles being acceptable.
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New Light and the UN
by individual inhttp://www.jehovahs-witness.com/forum/thread.asp?d=9882&site=3#117571.
the link above is from a thread in bible reseach posted by bible examiner last month concerning impending new light on the 'disgusting thing standing in a holy place' and how it is no longer going to be the un but has had its fulfillment completely in the first century.
this apparently was from a talk given by a circuit overseer.. why this is interesting is because, at the time the information concerning the un and the wt was not widely known on this site.
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individual
Link doesnt seem to be working so here is the thread I was referring to....
A "significant re-adjustment" in Watchtower dicta is in the works. Is it important? How so? If you do want to know, then take the time to read the following information, for doctrine is the motivation behind everything that is "Watchtower", and recent happenings within Watchtower-world shed light on the future course of the great ship Watchtower.
[HR]
PrologueAlthough the effect of the recent scandal relating to children being molested, and the things that are bound to happen in the near future with respect to this, will have an impact on the course of Watchtower-future, it is certain that Watchtower-past and Watchtower-present have been most affected by doctrine. Those who have left, and those who are leaving right now, are in the majority those who have had a "crisis of conscience" with respect to doctrine. After all, that's what got us into this mess in the first place. We cared about "right doctrine", and as time went by, we found out that the Watchtower had many false doctrines not unlike the religions we left when we joined.
The writer of this paper came to the point where he is, as a result of no other thing but this, -that doctrine continued to prove false, and the forcing of this doctrine by the Watchtower became like a pair of cold hands squeezing on the throat of free thought and expression.
The neophyte does not feel this squeezing. As a novice I myself was too busy in the prescribed regimen of activities to hardly notice the inconsistencies in doctrine, nor did I see the effect on lives. I saw little problem with doctrine, and I certainly saw no problem with the concept that the Watchtower had the right to set any doctrine it chose to set. It's unfortunate, but most Jehovah's Witnesses struggle to remain in this "newbie" mental state, a 'spiritual babe', a true 'newbie' to Biblical understanding, so as to keep their figurative head in the clouds. Ignorance is bliss.
This discussion is about understanding the future direction of the "Organization" of the Watchtower, via it's ever changing doctrines. As a long time, and current member, I understand all too well how one can plan one's life around doctrines which inevitably receive "significant re-adjustment". (note: they are never 'wrong')
As both a Bible student, and a person engaged in an ongoing study of this organization in the most intensive way, that of immersion in the culture, I would like to carry this understanding to the outside world.
I do not write this for the novice JW or those newly considering joining the Watchtower movement, to which I belong, for to understand the doctrine -and its effect- takes years of experience, -years of painful experience. I write for the benefit of those who have had the unfortunate experience of losing many years of their life to the Watchtower and who are curious as to what is happening to it now.
I also write this for the benefit of those who study this organization on the outside, and who could make use of an insiders knowledge and experience in understanding the doctrines of the Watchtower and the effect on the direction of the movement.
[HR]
The DiscussionRecently, a Circuit Overseer has been giving a talk that involves certain verses in Matthew chapter 24. What he is preaching, one can be absolutely sure, is sanctioned by the Watchtower proper. Why it's important takes a few more paragraphs to explain because one must first have in mind the Watchtower's position up till this point. And to understand why this particular change is so significant also takes a few paragraphs. Yet this read should be rewarding.
The material I choose so to make the point is the Watchtower article of May 1, 1999 pages 14-20, where we find a few important points which find even more significance when taken in context with the recent sermons given by certain CO's.
The Watchtower is full of allegories. If the reader was ever associated with the Org, then the significance of Matthew 24:45 and the allegories invented by the Watchtower relative to this verse are plain. It is the single most important verse in the whole Bible for JW's. The entire authority structure of the Governing Body rests here. It is the "sacred cow" of the Watchtower. Therefore, any changes in doctrine relative to Matthew chapter 24 will have lasting effects on the Watchtower organization.
At Matthew 24:15-16 we read in the NWT
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--------------------------------------------------------------------------------*** Rbi8 Matthew 24:15-16 ***
15 “Therefore, when YOU catch sight of the disgusting thing that causes desolation, as spoken of through Daniel the prophet, standing in a holy place, (let the reader use discernment,) 16 then let those in Ju·de'a begin fleeing to the mountains.--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
The Watchtower allegory that relates to these verses states that "…the first fulfillment involved the Roman assault on Jerusalem and its temple" (Note: all quotes are from the w99 5/1 14-20) This article goes on to say that "It is apparent that Jesus was referring to the Roman army that would come…"
Therefore, the Roman army was represented by the "disgusting thing that causes desolation" in this supposed "first" fulfillment and it's "standing in a holy place" was a prophecy concerning the time when the Roman army would undermine the wall in 66CE and Roman soldiers, Gentiles, would enter the Temple grounds.
Christians then would recognize this "sign" and when the Roman army retreated, they would take the opportunity to "begin fleeing to the mountains".
This is all well and good, and for a fact is a matter of history now. But the Watchtower does not leave it there. They insist, and have for many years, that this was only the "first" fulfillment, and the article goes on to say …
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"Since World War I, we have seen the larger fulfillment of Jesus’ sign recorded in Matthew chapter 24. Yet, recall his words: “When you catch sight of the disgusting thing that causes desolation . . . standing in a holy place, . . . then let those in Judea begin fleeing to the mountains.” (Matthew 24:15, 16) This aspect of the prophecy must have a fulfillment in our time too."
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------They warn us that "OUR being alerted to an approaching calamity can enable us to avoid it."
Ohhh, we had better tune in!The article further points out the characters in the Watchtower allegory when it says
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"So in 1919 “the disgusting thing” appeared. In time, the League gave way to the United Nations. Jehovah’s Witnesses have long exposed these human peace organizations as disgusting in God’s sight."
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------So, where in the "first" fulfillment, the "disgusting thing" was the Roman army, in this supposed "greater" or second fulfillment, the "disgusting thing" becomes the United Nations Organization.
But who then, in this "second" fulfillment, is represented by "Judea", the Jewish nation that was conquered with it's "holy place"? The article then relates …
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"On Thursday, July 10, 1969, at the “Peace on Earth” International Assembly in New York City, F. W. Franz, then vice president of the Watch Tower Bible and Tract Society, gave …a significantly adjusted explanation…" of the outworkings of these events. …"The ‘great tribulation’ such as will not occur again is yet ahead, for it means the destruction of the world empire of false religion (including Christendom) followed by the ‘war of the great day of God the Almighty’ at Armageddon"
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------So then, the Watchtower allegory teaches that soon, very, very soon, the "disgusting thing" in the person of the United Nations Organization will stand in the modern-day "holy place" in the person of all religions of the earth, bar the Watchtower headquarters obviously, at which time it will be necessary for all good Jehovah's Witnesses to "begin fleeing to the mountains".
Interesting, then, isn't it, that …
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"As first-century followers of Christ must have keenly watched to see how the “standing in a holy place” would develop, so do present-day [Jehovah's Witnesses]."
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------Now does it make any sense at all, that Jehovah's Witnesses need to watch for an event where the UN goes to church, …so that they know when to flee? FLEE WHAT? They are not in church are they?
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--------------------------------------------------------------------------------16 Since the start of the great tribulation is yet future, is the “standing in a holy place” still ahead of us? Evidently so. While “the disgusting thing” made its appearance early in this century and has, thus, existed for decades, it will take a position in a unique way “in a holy place” in the near future.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------Doesn't make much sense, not to us, and obviously not to them either, for they go on to say …" We cannot presently have full details about the great tribulation," and "Admittedly, we will have to wait for the actual fulfillment to know all the details."
Well, this is a convenient "out" for the Watchtower, with regard to this self contradictory allegory. Who can explain such nonsense? The article says …
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"So “the disgusting thing that causes desolation,” which has existed since 1919, apparently is yet to stand in a holy place. How will this happen? And how can we be affected?" Yes Watchtower tell us, how can we be affected?
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------The watchtower explains …
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"Details supplied in the prophecy help us to identify this symbolic beast as a peace organization …now the United Nations. Revelation 17:16, 17 shows that God will yet put it into the hearts of certain human rulers who are prominent in this “beast” to desolate the world empire of false religion. That attack marks the outbreak of the great tribulation."
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------That's all they have to offer in the way of explanation. I wonder how many letters the Watchtower received asking their "channel" how in the hell the UN's standing in say, the vatican, will be reason for JWs to flee. And flee from what? Supposedly JWs have already "fled" from the supposed modern-day counterpart of Judea/Jewry. As the article says
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"We have for many decades been urging people to get out of false religion and to take up true worship."…and "continue to maintain a clear distinction between themselves and false religious organizations."
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------What the hell does it matter to JWs that the UN is going to enter the Churches etc and axe them? If we aren't there, then we're just bystanders. As the aarticle says "After all, obedient Christians will not be punished when destruction comes on false religion and the rest of this wicked system."
Why worry then? Why do JWs need to "be discerning and heed the warning about ‘the disgusting thing standing in a holy place.’ And they will act decisively on their unshakable faith."? WHY?And how many asked our dear GB deskboyz, "If the Church is the "Holy Place" where the UN will stand, why have we all prematurely fled?" Did not Jesus say that "when you see…THEN.." AND, if it's a "holy place" why did the Watchtower make us all flee it before our Lord directed?
So, it's no wonder that the Watchtower is going to change this self-contradictory nonsense by way of sermons given by COs instead of announcing it outright by way of their "channel" journal the Watchtower magazine. After the COs have made their rounds and given "new light" to congregations on a one-at -a-time basis, then the Watchtower can safely discuss Matthew chapter 24 with their new doctrine, and nobody will notice….So they thought!
The CO is giving a talk that in summary says that the allegory of so many years is now GONE. He is teaching that there is no "second" and "greater" fulfillment of Matthew 24:15-16 but that it was fulfilled in complete in the first century, and only upon Jewry.
Well. Like thinking minds didn't know that! The problem is, this doctrine was fundamental to their "sacred cow" dicta of Matthew 24:45 and the further allegorizing of the Watchtower. The Watchtower is slowly dismantling their power base by altering long held doctrine which is fundamentally important to their power base.
Time will tell, but this cannot last.
Bonus Laugh
On a further note, I wish to point out one unrelated thing in this confusing and self-contradictory article. In an effort to increase anxiety in the rank and file so as to raise the specter of an 'imminent' action against "false religion", thus increasing the level of expectation among JWs (which is needed to accelerate magazine sales etc) the Watchtower went on to add…
"Yet, it is noteworthy that in some lands there is already a detectable and growing antipathy toward religion." Now, this statement on it's own might have accomplished their goal, but they didn't leave it there. They went on to cry that "…Some political elements, in league with former Christians who have deviated from the true faith, are promoting hostility against religion in general and true Christians in particular."
So, in an effort to make JWs think that the UN is soon going to act against the Churches, they point, not to anything related to any particular government's sentiment toward Catholicism for instance, but rather to those who hate THEM, the Watchtower! As if the increased hate of the fools in Brooklyn means that soon the UN will gobble up the Church. Sure, the hate of Watchtower will grow and grow until action bursts forth against… the Church?
Nonsense! And of course all this Watchtower hate will vanish the instant the UN gets the idea to destroy all religion EXCEPT the Watchtower.
In other words, the hate of Watchtower will grow, and grow, and grow until all of a sudden they love us, and leave us completely alone as they make a viscous attack against everybody else!
As the article says "Consequently, political powers even now …they will further vent their opposition against God’s true worshipers, his “holy ones” in particular" but all this will suddenly end when they get a divine revelation that it's not the Watchtower they should hate, but it's everybody else, all religion on Earth, EXCEPT the Watchtower Society.
You decide what to call this.
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New Light and the UN
by individual inhttp://www.jehovahs-witness.com/forum/thread.asp?d=9882&site=3#117571.
the link above is from a thread in bible reseach posted by bible examiner last month concerning impending new light on the 'disgusting thing standing in a holy place' and how it is no longer going to be the un but has had its fulfillment completely in the first century.
this apparently was from a talk given by a circuit overseer.. why this is interesting is because, at the time the information concerning the un and the wt was not widely known on this site.
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individual
. http://www.jehovahs-witness.com/forum/thread.asp?d=9882&site=3#117571
The link above is from a thread in Bible Reseach posted by Bible Examiner last month concerning impending new light on the 'disgusting thing standing in a holy place' and how it is no longer going to be the UN but has had its fulfillment completely in the first century. This apparently was from a talk given by a circuit overseer.Why this is interesting is because, at the time the information concerning the UN and the WT was not widely known on this site. I remembered this thread whilst reading the UN and NGO thread on this board. If this thread is true then expect new light from the society concerning the UN fairly soon. Another thought I had was that the easing down of the blood policy particularly referring to Bulgaria, and the new light on military service and that mysterious WT with the questions from readers on voting that made it a conscience matter.. all of these could be as a result of becoming an NGO for the UN under Human Rights since all these things are indeed human rights issues. If I am correct in my thinking it seems that the new light coming from the org. is being influenced by politics and a wish to appease the UN as a result of becoming an NGO.
These things now are all coming together and all these articles in the Watchtower that have seemed odd suddenly make sense. The WT has been easing in these thoughts a) in the hope that the rank and file members dont notice and get upset.. and b) hoping that the UN and others would see them in a better, more humanitarian light.
I left the org. nearly a year ago, but I tell you this, if I was still in it now and put all these things together in my mind I would have walked out in absolute disgust. I think all Jehovahs Witnesses should ask themselves the question - is all this smacking of hypocrisy, decrying the UN when it suited them yet claiming new light when it benefits the org.
I await further developments, particularly in relation to new understanding of Matt. 24:15,16 with great interest. My feeling is that a new understanding MUST come about and the COs probably know about it now and are trying to do damage limitation. Will it come about any quicker because of all the phone calls and emails the UN has been getting regarding the portrayal of the UN in all those old mags? Surely the UN will be deeply unhappy with an NGO who has been openly publicising the UN in this bad light?
The new system is just around the corner.... the problem is - the corner has turned into a roundabout...
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New Light and the UN
by individual inhttp://www.jehovahs-witness.com/forum/thread.asp?d=9882&site=3#117571.
the link above is from a thread in bible reseach posted by bible examiner last month concerning impending new light on the 'disgusting thing standing in a holy place' and how it is no longer going to be the un but has had its fulfillment completely in the first century.
this apparently was from a talk given by a circuit overseer.. why this is interesting is because, at the time the information concerning the un and the wt was not widely known on this site.
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individual
. http://www.jehovahs-witness.com/forum/thread.asp?d=9882&site=3#117571
The link above is from a thread in Bible Reseach posted by Bible Examiner last month concerning impending new light on the 'disgusting thing standing in a holy place' and how it is no longer going to be the UN but has had its fulfillment completely in the first century. This apparently was from a talk given by a circuit overseer.
Why this is interesting is because, at the time the information concerning the UN and the WT was not widely known on this site. I remembered this thread whilst reading the UN and NGO thread on this board. If this thread is true then expect new light from the society concerning the UN fairly soon. Another thought I had was that the easing down of the blood policy particularly referring to Bulgaria, and the new light on military service and that mysterious WT with the questions from readers on voting that made it a conscience matter.. all of these could be as a result of becoming an NGO for the UN under Human Rights since all these things are indeed human rights issues. If I am correct in my thinking it seems that the new light coming from the org. is being influenced by politics and a wish to appease the UN as a result of becoming an NGO.
These things now are all coming together and all these articles in the Watchtower that have seemed odd suddenly make sense. The WT has been easing in these thoughts a) in the hope that the rank and file members dont notice and get upset.. and b) hoping that the UN and others would see them in a better, more humanitarian light.
I left the org. nearly a year ago, but I tell you this, if I was still in it now and put all these things together in my mind I would have walked out in absolute disgust. I think all Jehovahs Witnesses should ask themselves the question - is all this smacking of hypocrisy, decrying the UN when it suited them yet claiming new light when it benefits the org.
I await further developments, particularly in relation to new understanding of Matt. 24:15,16 with great interest. My feeling is that a new understanding MUST come about and the COs probably know about it now and are trying to do damage limitation. Will it come about any quicker because of all the phone calls and emails the UN has been getting regarding the portrayal of the UN in all those old mags? Surely the UN will be deeply unhappy with an NGO who has been openly publicising the UN in this bad light?