Posts by bohm

233

Number of Muslims protesting London terrorist attack = ZERO. Number of Muslims protesting forced Mosque closure in France = HUNDREDS

by kpop in

so it is now two days after another islamic terrorist attack.

how many muslims are in the streets protesting and condemning this evil?

how many are marching in all the big cities condemning this in mass protests?.

bohm

But it's no different to saying that a "good Catholic" follows the teachings of Catholicism more closely than a less-good Catholic or a good Jehovahs Witness follows the WTS instructions more closely than a less-good JW does.

I think that only serves to reinforce my point: Both the JW and the Catholic are Christians; what it means to be a "good Catholic" and a "good JW" are very different things.

Why can't we allow the same for Islam?

Why can't we say that the ISIS militant is a good Muslim according to their idea of what Islam should be and e.g. a Dancing Dervish too is a good Muslim according to whatever they believe in? Why can't we allow for a cosmopolitan interpretation of Islam that takes the "religion of peace"-part serious?

Sure none of this is going to be true or very consistent (this goes for the Catholic and JW to BTW...), but that is because it is a religion.

Your 'god' Obama made statements about it, but you simply cannot explain the basis for them.

I am an atheist.

I disagree with Obama on several points regarding the relationship between ISIS and Islam. I think he says what he does for tactical reasons but that does not make them any more true. My views on Islamic terrorism and ISIS are aligned with those of Bernard Haykel. You can find a recent summary here:

https://www.hsgac.senate.gov/download/testimony-haykel-2016-01-20

to ignore the Islamic background and
content of the Islamic State’s ideology or the material factors that led to its rise is to fail
in the scholarly enterprise and to fall short in providing the policy maker, the student, and
the public with an adequate understanding of the global phenomenon of jihadism.
(...)
But no one should be fooled into thinking that the society and state established by the
Islamic State is a perfect reproduction of the past, as its ideologues and recruits would
want everyone to believe

Haykel is one of the foremost scholars on Islam. Is he wrong?

233

Number of Muslims protesting London terrorist attack = ZERO. Number of Muslims protesting forced Mosque closure in France = HUNDREDS

by kpop in

so it is now two days after another islamic terrorist attack.

how many muslims are in the streets protesting and condemning this evil?

how many are marching in all the big cities condemning this in mass protests?.

bohm

Simon: The issue of who follows the teachings of the Quran most closely is very different than being a "good muslim". I think it is uncontroversial that ISIS is more closely following the Quran than Majiid if you look at the rules in Sharia and check off boxes, but I don't think that is the same as being a good Muslim.

I don't think Islam (or christianity for the matter) is consistent. For instance I think it is inconsistent to say that you are a religion of peace and have the laws and rules in Sharia. If we accept it is not consistent that means you can interpret it in different ways depending on what teachings you accept as literally true and which you interpret to make stuff fit. For instance a person can say that he begins with the "religion of peace" and then remove all the things that don't jive with that using the same methods that modern Christians do; methods for interpreting the crap out of the Islamic texts have been around since the middle ages. Does any of this make sense in an objective way? not really, but none of it makes any sense because it is build on false premises...

Since there are no truth claims at the bottom of it all I don't see why we have to say that person is not as "good" a muslim as the crazy guy in the desert with the AK47. Do we even know if the texts in the Quran has been faithfully transferred?

You can find lists of things Muslims object to that ISIS do. Some items on those lists seems like theological waffling, some seems more concrete. My point is that I think it is both more correct (and a heck of a lot more useful) to either accept that the term "good muslim" is vacuous, or at least that it admits a definition which allows a person like Majiid to say he is as good a Muslim as anyone.

233

Number of Muslims protesting London terrorist attack = ZERO. Number of Muslims protesting forced Mosque closure in France = HUNDREDS

by kpop in

so it is now two days after another islamic terrorist attack.

how many muslims are in the streets protesting and condemning this evil?

how many are marching in all the big cities condemning this in mass protests?.

bohm

Can we then say that ISIS are more Islamic than Maajid Nawaz?

Yes/maybe and no/maybe. Look at the dictionary definition of Islamic:

1.
the religious faith of Muslims, based on the words and religious system founded by the prophet Muhammad and taught by the Koran, the basic principle of which is absolute submission to a unique and personal god, Allah.
2.
the whole body of Muslim believers, their civilization, and the countries in which theirs is the dominant religion.

I think the answer is yes/maybe according to the first definition, maybe/no according to the second. And we can parse this endlessly in a tiresome religious debate, for instance we can debate if a person can fully submit to allah if he does what the head of the islamic state does and bla bla bla. At the end of the day we get to the problem that all of it is 100% made up bullshit and trying to accuse someone of making something up is moot. Compare to the various attempts to even define "true Christianity".

I digress. I don't think this answers what it means to be a "good Muslim"

I have no IPhone. Please just answer the question. Thank you.

Are you really unaware what Islamic State tries to accomplish or is this some kind of rhetoric device I don't get?

If you are not aware of what the Islamic state tries to accomplish I will really recommend you to read the wikipedia page.

If you are aware and this is some kind of silly rhetorical device perhaps we can just skip it?

233

Number of Muslims protesting London terrorist attack = ZERO. Number of Muslims protesting forced Mosque closure in France = HUNDREDS

by kpop in

so it is now two days after another islamic terrorist attack.

how many muslims are in the streets protesting and condemning this evil?

how many are marching in all the big cities condemning this in mass protests?.

bohm

what cause/belief is ISIS committed to?

Try this if you have an IPhone. Press and hold the home button. Then say with a clear voice to your phone:

Search the web for ISIS wikipedia

(hint: consider what "ISIS" is an acronym for)

233

Number of Muslims protesting London terrorist attack = ZERO. Number of Muslims protesting forced Mosque closure in France = HUNDREDS

by kpop in

so it is now two days after another islamic terrorist attack.

how many muslims are in the streets protesting and condemning this evil?

how many are marching in all the big cities condemning this in mass protests?.

bohm

This means that he's not devout. ISIS kills Muslims and infidels for insulting the prophet. This means that they're very devout.

Well, I think that was what I wrote...

'Good' and 'bad' Muslims are highly subjective terms that muddy the waters.

Okay, great. I was discussing Simons use of the term "good Muslim". If you don't think we can define it, I suggest you take it up with him.

we're not discussing Christians, we're discussing Muslims.

???

Because they westboro baptist church are an inconvenient example we should not talk about them? lol. Sorry, but I am looking for consistency in my beliefs so I will have to keep them in mind as an example of very devout christians who I don't think are good christians...

233

Number of Muslims protesting London terrorist attack = ZERO. Number of Muslims protesting forced Mosque closure in France = HUNDREDS

by kpop in

so it is now two days after another islamic terrorist attack.

how many muslims are in the streets protesting and condemning this evil?

how many are marching in all the big cities condemning this in mass protests?.

bohm

LUHE: whom do you believe to be more devout? ISIS or Maajid Nawaz?

Devout? As in "totally committed to a cause or belief"? ISIS for sure.

Notice this is an "is"-claim: Who is more committed.

Westboro Baptist Church are likely amongst the most devout Christians. I don't think that makes them good Christians, which is what we are discussing.

(Bear in mind that Nawaz received death threats for putting an image of Muhammad on his FB page; ISIS carry out Sharia punishments.)

Bear in mind I had bananas and a protein shake for lunch. Just something random to bear in mind.

233

Number of Muslims protesting London terrorist attack = ZERO. Number of Muslims protesting forced Mosque closure in France = HUNDREDS

by kpop in

so it is now two days after another islamic terrorist attack.

how many muslims are in the streets protesting and condemning this evil?

how many are marching in all the big cities condemning this in mass protests?.

bohm

Simon: I believe ISIS are Muslim, of course!. I also believe that e.g. Maajid Nawaz is a Muslim.

What I object to is the view that we should think ISIS is what it means exclusively to be a "Good Muslim" (or more specifically, that it means you should rape and butcher). I don't bear the burden of proof to establish that claim. If it turns out that none of us know what it means to be a "good Muslim" you will still not be correct.

You've been given the opportunity to explain why you believe that is not the case, So far you have refused to even try

Well I believe I have but here goes again:

1) I believe Maajid Nawaz is a Muslim
2) Maajid Nawaz does not rape and butcher, or believe anyone should
3) I got no grounds to make the judgment Maajid Nawaz is not a "good Muslim" whereas ISIS is which is not begging the question. I don't know if anyone can.

I would challenge you in return to first make it clear if you believe "good Muslim" is an "ought"-claim and then secondly, outline your argument for how that particular ought is derived.

233

Number of Muslims protesting London terrorist attack = ZERO. Number of Muslims protesting forced Mosque closure in France = HUNDREDS

by kpop in

so it is now two days after another islamic terrorist attack.

how many muslims are in the streets protesting and condemning this evil?

how many are marching in all the big cities condemning this in mass protests?.

bohm

SBF: Don't forget the definition of a good Muslim on page 2:

"to be a good Muslim you have to be a butcher and a rapist".

Actually, if you start from that assumption/definition/idea I kind of get a lot of the points made on this thread.

233

Number of Muslims protesting London terrorist attack = ZERO. Number of Muslims protesting forced Mosque closure in France = HUNDREDS

by kpop in

so it is now two days after another islamic terrorist attack.

how many muslims are in the streets protesting and condemning this evil?

how many are marching in all the big cities condemning this in mass protests?.

bohm

SBF: What, are you now accusing the fine publication of Breitbart of not being completely honest in it's reporting?

I am sure if any mistake was made by this powerhouse of journalistic integrity it was completely unrelated to the Muslimness of Khan...

233

Number of Muslims protesting London terrorist attack = ZERO. Number of Muslims protesting forced Mosque closure in France = HUNDREDS

by kpop in

so it is now two days after another islamic terrorist attack.

how many muslims are in the streets protesting and condemning this evil?

how many are marching in all the big cities condemning this in mass protests?.

bohm

Well, here we go, M103. Actually I don't understand why it is a slippery slope, and you have provided no reasons to believe the media is lying.

FYI, it is a motion, not a law. It does not make criticism of Islam illegal because it can't... why do we need all this fearmongering?