Posts by bohm

233

Number of Muslims protesting London terrorist attack = ZERO. Number of Muslims protesting forced Mosque closure in France = HUNDREDS

by kpop in

so it is now two days after another islamic terrorist attack.

how many muslims are in the streets protesting and condemning this evil?

how many are marching in all the big cities condemning this in mass protests?.

bohm

I saw a great word on Twitter to counter the "islamophobia" label: it's "islamophilia"
I think you're an Islamophile. For some reason you are attracted to it and want to defend it.
You should get help. (..)
Now, is that "particular ideological branch" based on an exact reading of the Islamic texts or not?
The problem you have is that despite all the "scholars" (who want to sell you on needing them to interpret things) it's actually very very simple to interpret. It has to be, it's designed for dumb people.

Well, quite frankly, I don't understand what I have said that deems me an "Islamophile" (I am now declared both an Islamophobe and and Islamophile, lol). My views on the texts of Islam and violent Islam is that there is clearly a link, as I have said before many times before and which should be apparent from even a cursory glance on Dabiq, and which I at this point would put in my signature because it seems that this is a continuous surprise in these discussions. If you are more interested in my views on this link I suggest you read Bernhard Haykel.

But I repeat this point: To say there is a link between Islamic texts and the action of ISIS is not to say a good Muslim butcher and rape, similar to how there being an obvious link between the texts of the bible and what JWs believe but that is not saying a "Good Christian" must shun family members.

Now I have a question for you: Have you read the article I posted by Haykel? Is anything he says factually wrong?

By all accounts I know, he is a serious western scholar on Islam, and I can't be convinced he is wrong simply by assertion and labels like "Islamophile".

If he is not a serious scholar, and I am somehow erring in reading him, please post a link to the scholars you would recommend me to read.

233

Number of Muslims protesting London terrorist attack = ZERO. Number of Muslims protesting forced Mosque closure in France = HUNDREDS

by kpop in

so it is now two days after another islamic terrorist attack.

how many muslims are in the streets protesting and condemning this evil?

how many are marching in all the big cities condemning this in mass protests?.

bohm

Simon:

YES! Because to be a good muslim doesn't entail being a good catholiic or a good JW.

I don't really know what you mean here. My point was that just as there are different branches within Christianity, there are different branches within Islam. Can we agree so far?

Then if we accept that, we can say that you can be a "good muslim" according to your particular branch of Islam, similar to how you said you could be a "good catholic" or a "good JW"; both are in that sense "good christians" (I still don't accept this "good Muslim/Christian" business is all that well-defined but here goes..), but believe very different things. Do you at least see the analogy I am trying to draw here?

If we can accept this kind of definition, I think someone like Majiid can say he is a "good Muslim" according to his particular style of Islam, where by "good" he means a mix of "virtuous" and "adherence to whatever values he associate with his brand of Islam".

I accept this is not a 100% rigorous definition and you are going to have to do violence to some ideas found in Islamic scriptures, but I think that is inherent because Islam is based on something false and contradictory; I think every Muslim (Or Christian, or Jew, ...) has that problem.

Because it makes no sense outside of the crazy world of liberals to ignore reality. It's falling for the "self identify as ..."

Did you read Haykels article? How is he wrong?

many Islamic scholars are apologists or preachers of it more than informers of what it contains.

Haykel is certainly not an apologists. Did you read what he had to say? His views form the basis of the Atlantic article "What ISIS really want". Didn't you agree with that article?

We can't hope to solve this by simple declaration of who is right/wrong. If you are aware of other academic work on Islam and ISIS I will be happy to read it, but I am going to stick to the academic literature on this one...

It appears you worship Obama though.

I certainly do not. I just wrote about something on which I disagree with Obama.

So, are ISIS more or less Islamic than Maajid Nawaz?

ISIS is more aligned with a particular ideological branch within Islam than Maajid Nawaz (see Haykels article). It is in my view a confusion to use that to say he is a more or less "good Muslim" than the ISIS sympathizer because of that.

233

Number of Muslims protesting London terrorist attack = ZERO. Number of Muslims protesting forced Mosque closure in France = HUNDREDS

by kpop in

so it is now two days after another islamic terrorist attack.

how many muslims are in the streets protesting and condemning this evil?

how many are marching in all the big cities condemning this in mass protests?.

bohm

But it's no different to saying that a "good Catholic" follows the teachings of Catholicism more closely than a less-good Catholic or a good Jehovahs Witness follows the WTS instructions more closely than a less-good JW does.

I think that only serves to reinforce my point: Both the JW and the Catholic are Christians; what it means to be a "good Catholic" and a "good JW" are very different things.

Why can't we allow the same for Islam?

Why can't we say that the ISIS militant is a good Muslim according to their idea of what Islam should be and e.g. a Dancing Dervish too is a good Muslim according to whatever they believe in? Why can't we allow for a cosmopolitan interpretation of Islam that takes the "religion of peace"-part serious?

Sure none of this is going to be true or very consistent (this goes for the Catholic and JW to BTW...), but that is because it is a religion.

Your 'god' Obama made statements about it, but you simply cannot explain the basis for them.

I am an atheist.

I disagree with Obama on several points regarding the relationship between ISIS and Islam. I think he says what he does for tactical reasons but that does not make them any more true. My views on Islamic terrorism and ISIS are aligned with those of Bernard Haykel. You can find a recent summary here:

https://www.hsgac.senate.gov/download/testimony-haykel-2016-01-20

to ignore the Islamic background and
content of the Islamic State’s ideology or the material factors that led to its rise is to fail
in the scholarly enterprise and to fall short in providing the policy maker, the student, and
the public with an adequate understanding of the global phenomenon of jihadism.
(...)
But no one should be fooled into thinking that the society and state established by the
Islamic State is a perfect reproduction of the past, as its ideologues and recruits would
want everyone to believe

Haykel is one of the foremost scholars on Islam. Is he wrong?

233

Number of Muslims protesting London terrorist attack = ZERO. Number of Muslims protesting forced Mosque closure in France = HUNDREDS

by kpop in

so it is now two days after another islamic terrorist attack.

how many muslims are in the streets protesting and condemning this evil?

how many are marching in all the big cities condemning this in mass protests?.

bohm

Simon: The issue of who follows the teachings of the Quran most closely is very different than being a "good muslim". I think it is uncontroversial that ISIS is more closely following the Quran than Majiid if you look at the rules in Sharia and check off boxes, but I don't think that is the same as being a good Muslim.

I don't think Islam (or christianity for the matter) is consistent. For instance I think it is inconsistent to say that you are a religion of peace and have the laws and rules in Sharia. If we accept it is not consistent that means you can interpret it in different ways depending on what teachings you accept as literally true and which you interpret to make stuff fit. For instance a person can say that he begins with the "religion of peace" and then remove all the things that don't jive with that using the same methods that modern Christians do; methods for interpreting the crap out of the Islamic texts have been around since the middle ages. Does any of this make sense in an objective way? not really, but none of it makes any sense because it is build on false premises...

Since there are no truth claims at the bottom of it all I don't see why we have to say that person is not as "good" a muslim as the crazy guy in the desert with the AK47. Do we even know if the texts in the Quran has been faithfully transferred?

You can find lists of things Muslims object to that ISIS do. Some items on those lists seems like theological waffling, some seems more concrete. My point is that I think it is both more correct (and a heck of a lot more useful) to either accept that the term "good muslim" is vacuous, or at least that it admits a definition which allows a person like Majiid to say he is as good a Muslim as anyone.

233

Number of Muslims protesting London terrorist attack = ZERO. Number of Muslims protesting forced Mosque closure in France = HUNDREDS

by kpop in

so it is now two days after another islamic terrorist attack.

how many muslims are in the streets protesting and condemning this evil?

how many are marching in all the big cities condemning this in mass protests?.

bohm

Can we then say that ISIS are more Islamic than Maajid Nawaz?

Yes/maybe and no/maybe. Look at the dictionary definition of Islamic:

1.
the religious faith of Muslims, based on the words and religious system founded by the prophet Muhammad and taught by the Koran, the basic principle of which is absolute submission to a unique and personal god, Allah.
2.
the whole body of Muslim believers, their civilization, and the countries in which theirs is the dominant religion.

I think the answer is yes/maybe according to the first definition, maybe/no according to the second. And we can parse this endlessly in a tiresome religious debate, for instance we can debate if a person can fully submit to allah if he does what the head of the islamic state does and bla bla bla. At the end of the day we get to the problem that all of it is 100% made up bullshit and trying to accuse someone of making something up is moot. Compare to the various attempts to even define "true Christianity".

I digress. I don't think this answers what it means to be a "good Muslim"

I have no IPhone. Please just answer the question. Thank you.

Are you really unaware what Islamic State tries to accomplish or is this some kind of rhetoric device I don't get?

If you are not aware of what the Islamic state tries to accomplish I will really recommend you to read the wikipedia page.

If you are aware and this is some kind of silly rhetorical device perhaps we can just skip it?

233

Number of Muslims protesting London terrorist attack = ZERO. Number of Muslims protesting forced Mosque closure in France = HUNDREDS

by kpop in

so it is now two days after another islamic terrorist attack.

how many muslims are in the streets protesting and condemning this evil?

how many are marching in all the big cities condemning this in mass protests?.

bohm

what cause/belief is ISIS committed to?

Try this if you have an IPhone. Press and hold the home button. Then say with a clear voice to your phone:

Search the web for ISIS wikipedia

(hint: consider what "ISIS" is an acronym for)

233

Number of Muslims protesting London terrorist attack = ZERO. Number of Muslims protesting forced Mosque closure in France = HUNDREDS

by kpop in

so it is now two days after another islamic terrorist attack.

how many muslims are in the streets protesting and condemning this evil?

how many are marching in all the big cities condemning this in mass protests?.

bohm

This means that he's not devout. ISIS kills Muslims and infidels for insulting the prophet. This means that they're very devout.

Well, I think that was what I wrote...

'Good' and 'bad' Muslims are highly subjective terms that muddy the waters.

Okay, great. I was discussing Simons use of the term "good Muslim". If you don't think we can define it, I suggest you take it up with him.

we're not discussing Christians, we're discussing Muslims.

???

Because they westboro baptist church are an inconvenient example we should not talk about them? lol. Sorry, but I am looking for consistency in my beliefs so I will have to keep them in mind as an example of very devout christians who I don't think are good christians...

233

Number of Muslims protesting London terrorist attack = ZERO. Number of Muslims protesting forced Mosque closure in France = HUNDREDS

by kpop in

so it is now two days after another islamic terrorist attack.

how many muslims are in the streets protesting and condemning this evil?

how many are marching in all the big cities condemning this in mass protests?.

bohm

LUHE: whom do you believe to be more devout? ISIS or Maajid Nawaz?

Devout? As in "totally committed to a cause or belief"? ISIS for sure.

Notice this is an "is"-claim: Who is more committed.

Westboro Baptist Church are likely amongst the most devout Christians. I don't think that makes them good Christians, which is what we are discussing.

(Bear in mind that Nawaz received death threats for putting an image of Muhammad on his FB page; ISIS carry out Sharia punishments.)

Bear in mind I had bananas and a protein shake for lunch. Just something random to bear in mind.

233

Number of Muslims protesting London terrorist attack = ZERO. Number of Muslims protesting forced Mosque closure in France = HUNDREDS

by kpop in

so it is now two days after another islamic terrorist attack.

how many muslims are in the streets protesting and condemning this evil?

how many are marching in all the big cities condemning this in mass protests?.

bohm

Simon: I believe ISIS are Muslim, of course!. I also believe that e.g. Maajid Nawaz is a Muslim.

What I object to is the view that we should think ISIS is what it means exclusively to be a "Good Muslim" (or more specifically, that it means you should rape and butcher). I don't bear the burden of proof to establish that claim. If it turns out that none of us know what it means to be a "good Muslim" you will still not be correct.

You've been given the opportunity to explain why you believe that is not the case, So far you have refused to even try

Well I believe I have but here goes again:

1) I believe Maajid Nawaz is a Muslim
2) Maajid Nawaz does not rape and butcher, or believe anyone should
3) I got no grounds to make the judgment Maajid Nawaz is not a "good Muslim" whereas ISIS is which is not begging the question. I don't know if anyone can.

I would challenge you in return to first make it clear if you believe "good Muslim" is an "ought"-claim and then secondly, outline your argument for how that particular ought is derived.

233

Number of Muslims protesting London terrorist attack = ZERO. Number of Muslims protesting forced Mosque closure in France = HUNDREDS

by kpop in

so it is now two days after another islamic terrorist attack.

how many muslims are in the streets protesting and condemning this evil?

how many are marching in all the big cities condemning this in mass protests?.

bohm

SBF: Don't forget the definition of a good Muslim on page 2:

"to be a good Muslim you have to be a butcher and a rapist".

Actually, if you start from that assumption/definition/idea I kind of get a lot of the points made on this thread.