Posts by bohm

233

Number of Muslims protesting London terrorist attack = ZERO. Number of Muslims protesting forced Mosque closure in France = HUNDREDS

by kpop in

so it is now two days after another islamic terrorist attack.

how many muslims are in the streets protesting and condemning this evil?

how many are marching in all the big cities condemning this in mass protests?.

bohm

Because the book is very clear that the example of the prophet mohammed must be followed.

There is the ought! Why?

So you pretend the question doesn't exist or try to change it into some English grammar test. Really, who gives a flying fuck about "it", "is" and "ought"

David Hume. The problem of deriving an ought from an it is a classical problem in philosophy. I don't think you can just dismiss it as an "English test", and I don't think it can be solved by simple declaration.

Because their book isn't as vague.

Luke isn't all that vague on hellfire either...

Believing in a burning hell doesn't hurt anyone else, so very very different.

I disagree but that is not very important. Luke does seem to talk about about a hell on the most natural interpretation. Do we have to accept that a "good Christian" must accept hell? I don't see how that follows...

Can you see the difference yet? Of course not, there are none so blind as those who apologize for Islam.

I make no apologies for Islam... why do you keep insisting that I do? I think it is an awful book, as I have written before, and you can derive better moral teachings from the X-men than you can from the Quran. Do I have to write this in every post?

233

Number of Muslims protesting London terrorist attack = ZERO. Number of Muslims protesting forced Mosque closure in France = HUNDREDS

by kpop in

so it is now two days after another islamic terrorist attack.

how many muslims are in the streets protesting and condemning this evil?

how many are marching in all the big cities condemning this in mass protests?.

bohm

Simon: Well they have this book ... called the Quran ...

Very well. The Quran exists, that is an "it".

How can we go from that "it" to what it means to be a good Muslim? (an "ought").

and then other books that chronicle Mohammed's life that it's adherents are meant to imitate.

There is the "ought". How did that follow? Did we just solve Humes problem?

Why are they meant to imitate it? Why can't they pick and choose like modern Christians/jews do, or organize their beliefs around a church hierarchy/tradition like the Catholics, or whatever?

Luke talks about a burning hell, IMO one of the morally corrosive ideas both found in the Quran and the Bible. Does that mean a person who does not believe in a burning hell is not a "good Christian"? I don't think so, I certainly don't think there are any logical reasons for it.

233

Number of Muslims protesting London terrorist attack = ZERO. Number of Muslims protesting forced Mosque closure in France = HUNDREDS

by kpop in

so it is now two days after another islamic terrorist attack.

how many muslims are in the streets protesting and condemning this evil?

how many are marching in all the big cities condemning this in mass protests?.

bohm

Why are you trying to defined this crap? Are you so well conditioned that you feel you have to defend Islam against criticism?

Certainly not. I think I extensively laid out my reasons for thinking Islam is not a good religion a few days ago and my thinking has not changed. In fact, I think you told me that some of my reasons for thinking Islam was bad were wrong so if anything my critique of Islam went too far...

I am trying to "define this crap" because I think ISIS/the Saudis, etc. are wrong on this issue as well and I think it is important to point that out. The idea that women can't be Muslim unless they cover their hair or wear garments that cover all of their bodies is IMO helping hardline Islamists. Jews and Christians solved that problem (of hardcore literalism) and I think the solution is worth advertising.

This is not my argument, other reformers of Islam (both current and former Muslims) are pointing this out.

233

Number of Muslims protesting London terrorist attack = ZERO. Number of Muslims protesting forced Mosque closure in France = HUNDREDS

by kpop in

so it is now two days after another islamic terrorist attack.

how many muslims are in the streets protesting and condemning this evil?

how many are marching in all the big cities condemning this in mass protests?.

bohm

Simon: I will give examples if you answer my question..

Can we agree that to say someone is a "good Muslim" only if he follows the rules laid out by ISIS (or something very similar), we are making a claim about how that person "ought" to behave and that "ought" must necessarily be derived from some "is"'s about facts of the world (such as the things Muhammed is supposed to have said)

In other words, this is what you claim to be able to do?

Alternatively, is your notion of "a good muslim" unrelated to how a muslim ought to behave?

233

Number of Muslims protesting London terrorist attack = ZERO. Number of Muslims protesting forced Mosque closure in France = HUNDREDS

by kpop in

so it is now two days after another islamic terrorist attack.

how many muslims are in the streets protesting and condemning this evil?

how many are marching in all the big cities condemning this in mass protests?.

bohm

Point me to "the most Muslim" people on the planet, who are living the dream, walking the walk.

I am not the person who claims to have discovered what it means to be a "good Muslim", or be "the most Muslim"! I am exactly questioning if you or ISIS or anyone else have!

233

Number of Muslims protesting London terrorist attack = ZERO. Number of Muslims protesting forced Mosque closure in France = HUNDREDS

by kpop in

so it is now two days after another islamic terrorist attack.

how many muslims are in the streets protesting and condemning this evil?

how many are marching in all the big cities condemning this in mass protests?.

bohm

They can only be considered a good Christian upto a point because the definition is rather vague and wishy washy and their is a prevalence among other "Christians" not to judge / to be tolerant etc... It's why Christians are far more benign as a whole than Muslims.

Well, a very conservative Christian would say that it is exactly the "poor Christians" who are desperately hanging onto the vishy-vashy part and he follows the real teachings of Paul according to which homosexuality is a sin. Does that mean the more liberal Christians are not "good Christians"? I don't think so.

Now, tell me why ISIS aren't actually the purest and most impeccable followers of Islam.

To cut through all of this: To make any such claim you got to assume that there is a particular way we ought to follow Islam. That Ought must follow from some "is"'s about what is written in books, practices, history, etc. etc.

My argument is going to be that I don't think this is a case where you can go from an ought to an is and someone who is making a claim that Muslims "ought" to be some way is claiming to do exactly that -- something I would like to see him do before I accept it.

If we accept there is no way Muslims ought to behave that can be derived from "is"'s about the Quran, I don't think we can say there is a single way to be a "good Muslim" because "good" is classical "ought"-language.

Alternatively, if you believe there is such a thing as a single way to be a "good Muslim", but that is separate from anything a Muslim ought to do, I think a Muslim (or me) can just reject it because it does not have to do with how a Muslim ought to behave, which is surely what we are concerned about.

Where is the error in the above argument?

233

Number of Muslims protesting London terrorist attack = ZERO. Number of Muslims protesting forced Mosque closure in France = HUNDREDS

by kpop in

so it is now two days after another islamic terrorist attack.

how many muslims are in the streets protesting and condemning this evil?

how many are marching in all the big cities condemning this in mass protests?.

bohm

Simon:

Does a Christian have to choose between supporting LBGT rights and being a good Christian?
Yes. I applaud people who chose common sense civility over the bigotry from ancient religious books but let's be honest, they are not following those books.

Well, I agree, you aren't following the simplest interpretation of the bible if you are a Christian and support LGBT rights. But this still does not answer my question: Can a person support LGBT rights and still be a good Christians?

I believe so...

Well, the question is not which standards some people use, but which standards we should use.
Wow, so you get to appoint yourself head of all Islam to decide everything? Good for you!

Where did I do that? Can you quote me?

I believe you are the one on this thread who is explaining me what "a good Muslim" is.

If you bother to educate yourself, you will see that Islam is very, very, very clear on what being "a good muslim" entails. That is one of the problems, it's impossible to re-write or re-interpret as it's so simple:
Kill any non-believers. Rape their women, take as many as you want. Humiliate them. Butcher them. Wage Jihad.

Well, I have read the Quran so there..

The bible is also clear on the LGBT issue and it takes a lot of gymnastics to get around that. I don't believe that means you can't be a "good christian" and support gay rights.

If you accept that you can't be "a good Muslim" and read the Quran according to a literal, bloodthirsty interpretation according to which someone like Majiid Newaz is a poor Muslim then, well, I disagree with you similar to how I believe you can be a "good jew" without being orthodox...

This idea, that the hard-core muslims are the real muslims, is an important part of ISIS propaganda as well as the idea that a Muslim without veil is not a "real" muslim... I think ISIS is wrong on that too.

233

Number of Muslims protesting London terrorist attack = ZERO. Number of Muslims protesting forced Mosque closure in France = HUNDREDS

by kpop in

so it is now two days after another islamic terrorist attack.

how many muslims are in the streets protesting and condemning this evil?

how many are marching in all the big cities condemning this in mass protests?.

bohm

"Here in Canada we have Justin Trudeau who's government is backing moves to make criticism of Islam a crime. "
So I looked that up, and what the actual f....!! I officially don't like him anymore.

Can I see a verifiable link to this? It would be a very big set back for free speech in Canada...

233

Number of Muslims protesting London terrorist attack = ZERO. Number of Muslims protesting forced Mosque closure in France = HUNDREDS

by kpop in

so it is now two days after another islamic terrorist attack.

how many muslims are in the streets protesting and condemning this evil?

how many are marching in all the big cities condemning this in mass protests?.

bohm

Masjid is one of the good ones (by western values) but a bad one (by islamists standards).

Well, the question is not which standards some people use, but which standards we should use.

Do you agree with Simon that:

That's the big difference with Islam - to be a good Muslim you have to be a butcher and a rapist.

233

Number of Muslims protesting London terrorist attack = ZERO. Number of Muslims protesting forced Mosque closure in France = HUNDREDS

by kpop in

so it is now two days after another islamic terrorist attack.

how many muslims are in the streets protesting and condemning this evil?

how many are marching in all the big cities condemning this in mass protests?.

bohm

LUHE:

What is your point? Do you think he is a bad muslim?