bohm

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Posts by bohm

• 
  233

  Number of Muslims protesting London terrorist attack = ZERO. Number of Muslims protesting forced Mosque closure in France = HUNDREDS

  by kpop in

  1. watchtower
  2. bible

  so it is now two days after another islamic terrorist attack.

  how many muslims are in the streets protesting and condemning this evil?

  how many are marching in all the big cities condemning this in mass protests?.

  1. 
  2. 
  3. 
• 

  bohm

  LUHE: You agree with the claim that all good muslims have to rape. Proving that some parts of Islam admits rape is not the same as proving that all good Muslims have to rape

  Do you believe all "good Muslims" are in ISIS?
• 
  233

  Number of Muslims protesting London terrorist attack = ZERO. Number of Muslims protesting forced Mosque closure in France = HUNDREDS

  by kpop in

  1. watchtower
  2. bible

  so it is now two days after another islamic terrorist attack.

  how many muslims are in the streets protesting and condemning this evil?

  how many are marching in all the big cities condemning this in mass protests?.

  1. 
  2. 
  3. 
• 

  bohm

  Although not necessarily considered part of mainstream Islam, everything ISIS does is according to Sharia and the example of Muhammad. So, ISIS members have the required qualities of Muhammad's example and meet the strict standard of Sharia. Hence, they can be spoken of as 'good' Muslims.

  Okay. So we agree that on ISIS interpretation of Islam, rape is fine and dandy in some cases. What you have demonstrated so far is therefore that on ISIS interpretation of Islam, which you yourself describe as not necessarily mainstream*, rape is fine. Accordingly you implicitly agree there are other interpretation of Islam according to which rape is not okay. (you agree with me on that? or do you believe all interpretations of Islam teaches its adherents they *have* to rape?)

  At most where you end up is that you work with a definition of "good muslim" according to which ISIS are PART of the set of good Muslims and ISIS allows rape (I refrain from parsing the difference between allows and orders rape, i.e. the "have").
  

  Can you please tell me how you get from these premises to the statement that a "good Muslim" have to rape?

  For your ISIS example to be relevant you will have to prove ISIS contains all the "good Muslims". I know ISIS believes that, but I am very curious as to how you will prove it.
• 
  233

  Number of Muslims protesting London terrorist attack = ZERO. Number of Muslims protesting forced Mosque closure in France = HUNDREDS

  by kpop in

  1. watchtower
  2. bible

  so it is now two days after another islamic terrorist attack.

  how many muslims are in the streets protesting and condemning this evil?

  how many are marching in all the big cities condemning this in mass protests?.

  1. 
  2. 
  3. 
• 

  bohm

  SBF: Don't despair, any moment now LUHE will provide the intellectual artillery required to prove a good Muslim have to rape. It will be a brutal knock-down argument.
• 
  233

  Number of Muslims protesting London terrorist attack = ZERO. Number of Muslims protesting forced Mosque closure in France = HUNDREDS

  by kpop in

  1. watchtower
  2. bible

  so it is now two days after another islamic terrorist attack.

  how many muslims are in the streets protesting and condemning this evil?

  how many are marching in all the big cities condemning this in mass protests?.

  1. 
  2. 
  3. 
• 

  bohm

  Adherents is probably a better word, and yes, scumbags ISIS or otherwise who base their bullshit on the Quran are very adherent. Hows that?

  I think that is exactly what I have been saying for pages. I even quoted a scholar who holds that belief: ISIS base their beliefs on the Quran, in particular one kind of interpretation of the Quran. If this is not true I would like to see a refutation.

  bohm I think the problem is you are trying to discuss ISIS vs Islam, and to me that's not the discussion.

  What is the discussion then? I objected to the claim that a good muslim has to be a rapist. If you believe this claim is true I would very much like to hear your reasoning. If not, I don't understand what people are objecting to as this has been my point.

  ISIS is one crap part of it, but its not all, its not all the terrorists, it's not all the human rights that Islam violates

  Well, bingo. That's precisely my point. Can you explain how I am an Islamophile if we agree that ISIS is a subset of Islam but not all of Islam? It is possible you are suffering of some Islamophelia as well.
• 
  233

  Number of Muslims protesting London terrorist attack = ZERO. Number of Muslims protesting forced Mosque closure in France = HUNDREDS

  by kpop in

  1. watchtower
  2. bible

  so it is now two days after another islamic terrorist attack.

  how many muslims are in the streets protesting and condemning this evil?

  how many are marching in all the big cities condemning this in mass protests?.

  1. 
  2. 
  3. 
• 

  bohm

  very well. Noting that I think it is oversimplifying things then yes. I am now curious to hear your argument for why a good Muslim must be a rapist.
• 
  233

  Number of Muslims protesting London terrorist attack = ZERO. Number of Muslims protesting forced Mosque closure in France = HUNDREDS

  by kpop in

  1. watchtower
  2. bible

  so it is now two days after another islamic terrorist attack.

  how many muslims are in the streets protesting and condemning this evil?

  how many are marching in all the big cities condemning this in mass protests?.

  1. 
  2. 
  3. 
• 

  bohm

  I am bored of this conversation. I replied by a reference to an article because I don't think a yes or no answer is very illuminating. If I do give a yes or no answer anyway, despite my belief that important nuances will be lost, will you answer my question?
• 
  233

  Number of Muslims protesting London terrorist attack = ZERO. Number of Muslims protesting forced Mosque closure in France = HUNDREDS

  by kpop in

  1. watchtower
  2. bible

  so it is now two days after another islamic terrorist attack.

  how many muslims are in the streets protesting and condemning this evil?

  how many are marching in all the big cities condemning this in mass protests?.

  1. 
  2. 
  3. 
• 

  bohm

  LUHE: I actually answered that; my views are similar to Bernhard Haykel. tl;dr: ISIS is in important ways deriving their teachings from the Quran.

  While I don't think ISIS is as historically accurate as they portray themselves to be (read the article) I do not (and have not!) at any point denied they derive many of their teachings from the Quran, which I consider to be full of morally outrageous teachings, often using natural interpretations,

  Now that I have pointed out I have answered this question can you now explain how we go from that fact to demonstrating that "to be a good Muslim you have to be a butcher and a rapist"? I will make it easier for you: I will be content with a demonstration that a good Muslim have to be a rapist.

  
  
• 
  233

  Number of Muslims protesting London terrorist attack = ZERO. Number of Muslims protesting forced Mosque closure in France = HUNDREDS

  by kpop in

  1. watchtower
  2. bible

  so it is now two days after another islamic terrorist attack.

  how many muslims are in the streets protesting and condemning this evil?

  how many are marching in all the big cities condemning this in mass protests?.

  1. 
  2. 
  3. 
• 

  bohm

  FMF: Denouncing the ISIS as un-Islamic or "bad" Muslims is counterproductive, especially if those who hear the message have read the holy texts and seen the endorsement of many of ISIS's practices written plainly within them.

  I don't know if this was just a general comment, but I want to point out I haven't done that. Again see the article I posted which represents IMO a balanced view of the relationship between ISIS and Islam.

  I raised questions on the claim that "to be a good Muslim you have to be a butcher and a rapist.". I don't think that is true. If you believe it is true I would like to hear your reasons, in particular what it means to be a "good muslim".

  
  
  
  
• 
  233

  Number of Muslims protesting London terrorist attack = ZERO. Number of Muslims protesting forced Mosque closure in France = HUNDREDS

  by kpop in

  1. watchtower
  2. bible

  so it is now two days after another islamic terrorist attack.

  how many muslims are in the streets protesting and condemning this evil?

  how many are marching in all the big cities condemning this in mass protests?.

  1. 
  2. 
  3. 
• 

  bohm

  I saw a great word on Twitter to counter the "islamophobia" label: it's "islamophilia"

  I think you're an Islamophile. For some reason you are attracted to it and want to defend it.

  You should get help. (..)

  Now, is that "particular ideological branch" based on an exact reading of the Islamic texts or not?
  The problem you have is that despite all the "scholars" (who want to sell you on needing them to interpret things) it's actually very very simple to interpret. It has to be, it's designed for dumb people.

  Well, quite frankly, I don't understand what I have said that deems me an "Islamophile" (I am now declared both an Islamophobe and and Islamophile, lol). My views on the texts of Islam and violent Islam is that there is clearly a link, as I have said before many times before and which should be apparent from even a cursory glance on Dabiq, and which I at this point would put in my signature because it seems that this is a continuous surprise in these discussions. If you are more interested in my views on this link I suggest you read Bernhard Haykel.

  But I repeat this point: To say there is a link between Islamic texts and the action of ISIS is not to say a good Muslim butcher and rape, similar to how there being an obvious link between the texts of the bible and what JWs believe but that is not saying a "Good Christian" must shun family members.

  Now I have a question for you: Have you read the article I posted by Haykel? Is anything he says factually wrong?

  By all accounts I know, he is a serious western scholar on Islam, and I can't be convinced he is wrong simply by assertion and labels like "Islamophile".

  If he is not a serious scholar, and I am somehow erring in reading him, please post a link to the scholars you would recommend me to read.
• 
  233

  Number of Muslims protesting London terrorist attack = ZERO. Number of Muslims protesting forced Mosque closure in France = HUNDREDS

  by kpop in

  1. watchtower
  2. bible

  so it is now two days after another islamic terrorist attack.

  how many muslims are in the streets protesting and condemning this evil?

  how many are marching in all the big cities condemning this in mass protests?.

  1. 
  2. 
  3. 
• 

  bohm

  Simon:

  YES! Because to be a good muslim doesn't entail being a good catholiic or a good JW.

  I don't really know what you mean here. My point was that just as there are different branches within Christianity, there are different branches within Islam. Can we agree so far?

  Then if we accept that, we can say that you can be a "good muslim" according to your particular branch of Islam, similar to how you said you could be a "good catholic" or a "good JW"; both are in that sense "good christians" (I still don't accept this "good Muslim/Christian" business is all that well-defined but here goes..), but believe very different things. Do you at least see the analogy I am trying to draw here?

  If we can accept this kind of definition, I think someone like Majiid can say he is a "good Muslim" according to his particular style of Islam, where by "good" he means a mix of "virtuous" and "adherence to whatever values he associate with his brand of Islam".

  I accept this is not a 100% rigorous definition and you are going to have to do violence to some ideas found in Islamic scriptures, but I think that is inherent because Islam is based on something false and contradictory; I think every Muslim (Or Christian, or Jew, ...) has that problem.

  Because it makes no sense outside of the crazy world of liberals to ignore reality. It's falling for the "self identify as ..."

  Did you read Haykels article? How is he wrong?

  many Islamic scholars are apologists or preachers of it more than informers of what it contains.

  Haykel is certainly not an apologists. Did you read what he had to say? His views form the basis of the Atlantic article "What ISIS really want". Didn't you agree with that article?

  We can't hope to solve this by simple declaration of who is right/wrong. If you are aware of other academic work on Islam and ISIS I will be happy to read it, but I am going to stick to the academic literature on this one...

  It appears you worship Obama though.

  I certainly do not. I just wrote about something on which I disagree with Obama.

  So, are ISIS more or less Islamic than Maajid Nawaz?

  ISIS is more aligned with a particular ideological branch within Islam than Maajid Nawaz (see Haykels article). It is in my view a confusion to use that to say he is a more or less "good Muslim" than the ISIS sympathizer because of that.