keyser: Good to see you back. I never said I place great value on ALL life. Just that of innocents. I consider a fetus at 5 and half months that could survive out of the womb to be an innocent life. I understand not all agree but that is my opinion of when a life is a life. Legally it's a gray area in an abortion case it's at birth but if you hit a pregnant woman in my state (TX) and she miscaries you will be charged with murder of that fetus as a human life. So for those using the current law as your compass on this explain that? That being said my opinion is this Dr's life has less value than say that of a school teacher. Does that give the shooter the right to break that law and kill him, ABSOLUTLEY NOT. But if I have to choose to place a value on a life which we do as a society (the death penalty and organ donations) that's how I would decide. The shooter certainly will pay for his actions and is subject to law. Do I have to feel sorry for this Doctor being gone, nope not at all. This Doctor bragged about preforming over 60,000 abortions. Many on this board would say Hitler's life was less valuable than say Mother Theresa's as Hitler deliberately killed six million innocent victims. I would say none of you would shed a tear over Hitler's demise, but I will stop short of calling you hypocrits. I don't think that is necessary or productive.
Brocephus
JoinedPosts by Brocephus
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129
Religious Fundamentalist Terrorist Strike Again?
by Justitia Themis init doesn't appear police know the motive for this shooting, but it seems there is a high chance it is religous terrorism.
this doctor has repeatedly put his life on the line to fight fundamentalism.
abortion provider dr. george tiller killed at church.
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129
Religious Fundamentalist Terrorist Strike Again?
by Justitia Themis init doesn't appear police know the motive for this shooting, but it seems there is a high chance it is religous terrorism.
this doctor has repeatedly put his life on the line to fight fundamentalism.
abortion provider dr. george tiller killed at church.
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Brocephus
beksbks you are probably correct I can be a big smug and verbose when debating but I was taught confidence in my arguments from an early age.
Back on topic. You said you feel far more "Generous" towars John Brown. They both essentially did the same thing. Can you please explain the difference to me? In John Brown's day it was the "law of the land" to own slaves. John Brown had no more of a "legal" right to shoot a slave holder or auctioneer than I would to kill someone for owning a dog or Ford. I am not sure if you condone John Brown's actions or you are just saying you can emphathize and see how he could think he had to take such drastic measures to stop something he felt was so wrong.
John Doe The first 2 pages of this thread suck and are full of trite platitudes and emotionalism. It took a while but I finally got people to start talking about their own thoughts and to stop parroting the pro-life or pro-choice mantras around page 3.
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129
Religious Fundamentalist Terrorist Strike Again?
by Justitia Themis init doesn't appear police know the motive for this shooting, but it seems there is a high chance it is religous terrorism.
this doctor has repeatedly put his life on the line to fight fundamentalism.
abortion provider dr. george tiller killed at church.
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Brocephus
Looks like beksbks is going to pic up the name calling torch that Keyser and Dinah dropped.
Justitia you are correct, Dinah did take the bait and I am glad I made my point. Not to humiliate anyone but to get the debate going from a e-lynching to a discussion. Also if I would have called each opponent in Speech or Debate class a "prick" and sat down I would have failed and ultimately been dismissed from college. In the boardroom? I don't know what business you work in but anyone in my profession (banking) would not be taken seriously if they just resorted to name calling with anyone who disagreed with them. We expect facts, reason, and hopefully numbers to back up arguments in my profession.
I am very impressed with everything I have read over the last 3 pages. I find journey-on's slave analogy interesting. Didn't JOHN BROWN go around killing slave holders and slave auctioneers before the civil war? He attempted to start the Civil War and a slave rebellion at Harpers Ferry to abolish something he saw as digusting. This is a good analogy for this reason: The question isn't is slavery or abortion morally or legally correct. The question is when a man finds something that digusting and horrible what obligation or right does he have to stop it? For the record, yes John Brown was a nut like the shooter of the Doctor.
Finally people are expressing their thoughts. I guess it's time I express mine.
Personally, I think the professional pro-life harassers are not helping their cause. While I don't think a woman has a right to electivley abort a fetus as that fetus has a right to live in my opnion. The fetus didn't choose to have unprocted sex or sex at all. I can't imagine making a fetus responsible for my lack of self control. In a life or death case of the mother, that is different and must be a decision for the family and the doctor to make. But abortion as contraception is disguting to me and wrong. However, the only way to reasonably change this is through the legal system. Killing abortion doctors is murder and insane in my opinion. However because I can understand the shooters motivation and feelings doesn't mean I condone his actions. How many people understand why John Brown did what he did, but he was a mad man and wrong.
And on a personal note, I fully understand the consequences of making abortions tougher to get. I lost a relative due to a "back room" illegal abortion. That was her choice and she knew bleeding out was a possible consequence. It makes me very sad that it happened but doesn't change what I think is wrong or right. If my brother died robbing a bank I would be sad but I wouldn't say bank robbing is ok because of a personal tradgedy.
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129
Religious Fundamentalist Terrorist Strike Again?
by Justitia Themis init doesn't appear police know the motive for this shooting, but it seems there is a high chance it is religous terrorism.
this doctor has repeatedly put his life on the line to fight fundamentalism.
abortion provider dr. george tiller killed at church.
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Brocephus
Well atleast folks seem to be making a choice and giving a reason why. The last 2 pages of post have certainly provoked more thought than the first two.
Sammieswife: I am sorry if you felt my demand was arrogant but I was getting tired of your evasiveness. Just say you don't want to answer the question so you can keep preaching about how bad crazy some people are that oppose Abortion on religous principles. I already agree with you on that. If you haven't connected the dots yet my opposition is on a scientific/logical level.
Logos, pathos, ethos folks...
Man I just found $20 in my pocket I am going out to dinner, peace out.
Justitia: I didn't intend for it to become an Abortion debate either. I just wanted to have it explained why some reasonable people can logically support something I consider insane. It was like pulling teeth but I think I finally got a couple of honest explanations with which I should marinate my mind.
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129
Religious Fundamentalist Terrorist Strike Again?
by Justitia Themis init doesn't appear police know the motive for this shooting, but it seems there is a high chance it is religous terrorism.
this doctor has repeatedly put his life on the line to fight fundamentalism.
abortion provider dr. george tiller killed at church.
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Brocephus
This is not a issue; because, Dr. Tiller practiced in Kansas and it is illegal to perform an elective abortion after the 21st week in Kansas.
PEC Just when I was bragging on you? http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2009/03/27/george-tiller-kansas-doct_n_180280.html
Dr. Tiller was accused or circumventing the laws to preform the abortions past the limit of Kansas law. See above link.
Regardless of if he was or wasn't I still thought you would answer the question? How could it not be an issue?
No one seems to be able to really defend the position that late term abortion of a viable fetus is not murder. I won't push yall anymore but
all of you have failed to convince me my feelings are wrong. Better luck next time.
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129
Religious Fundamentalist Terrorist Strike Again?
by Justitia Themis init doesn't appear police know the motive for this shooting, but it seems there is a high chance it is religous terrorism.
this doctor has repeatedly put his life on the line to fight fundamentalism.
abortion provider dr. george tiller killed at church.
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Brocephus
I don't know the answer to most of your questions, Sammieswife.
Seriously can you not read the question? I am not asking if the killing of this D octor was right or wrong, or why people are the way they are.
I am asking for the last time I promise:
Is Late Term Abortion murder? If not why?
Why can't you just answer the question Sammieswife? You keep talking about everything under the sun but the question. I seriously want to know. Your platitudes and sterotypes are not telling me anything about what you believe or think. I want to know how someone who sees this differently than me came to the conclusion. Or did you only come to your conclusion because you decided Pro-Lifers were bigger A--holes that Pro-choiers? We get it you think Pro-Lifers are jerks but what about your answer to the question? Please see PEC's post for an example of answering a direct question if you need an example. Unlike the Watchtower the answer is not the third sentence in this paragraph. You will have to synthesize and answer of your own. Good luck!
And trying to stay unemotional but you don't really think soldiers wake up and with the intention of killing children? If your answer is yes that may explain your difficulty grasping a simple question.
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129
Religious Fundamentalist Terrorist Strike Again?
by Justitia Themis init doesn't appear police know the motive for this shooting, but it seems there is a high chance it is religous terrorism.
this doctor has repeatedly put his life on the line to fight fundamentalism.
abortion provider dr. george tiller killed at church.
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Brocephus
PEC I appreciate you sharing with me your thoughts on why a late term aborition is not murder. Religous or moral principles aside I think chosing between the mother or your child and your child would be torture. On one hand I could be inclined to agree with you but on the other it seems unnatural to not sacrifice the older generation for the next. But what about if the procedure is purely elective, a matter of contraception and convience? Should terminating a fetus that could be viable at 5 1/2 months still not be considered murder? Regardless, it gives me something to think about.
Sixofnine I am not sure if the "you aren't alive till you poop" theory is serious or not. Due to the scarcity of other arguments I will treat as sincere. When I think about it, there is something that makes sense. But, I am not sure if the poop theory holds for me in the end. At 5 1/2 months the fetus is not "pooping" but it is considered viable. It can be removed from the womb in a C-section and birthed or it can be disected and removed through an abortion. If it "poops" or not would not necessarily indicate life or not to me considering those facts.
It has been assumed by posters on this thread that I am a "prick" "fundamentalist" "Rush Limbaugh supporter" "Bible Thumper", just becuase I shared some feelings about a news story and asked a serious question. If you disagree with my "feelings" that is fine, I never expected any to agree. However please notice I have managed to support my position and feelings with logic and facts. I never mentioned "sin", "Jesus" , "Rush Limbaugh" or the "Bible" I found Justitia's comment about college funny as I was beginning to think I was the only on this board that went to college.
Sammieswife gets half credit. She managed to articulate that she clearly did not believe late term abortion was murder but went on to bash Bill Oreilly which has nothing to do with my question before giving her logic. I don't like Bill Oreilly either and he would be a bad person for me to ask why a late term abortion is not murder. He clearly supports the other side!
The rest of you have failed Professor Brocephus' exam today. One of the things you are made to do in college is sucessfully argue for an issue with which you do not agree personally. It teaches detatchment and reasoning which makes you a stronger debater for something you do believe in, hopefully. My intention was not to educate anyone. However, I was dissapointed. The JW's really screwed us by talking us out of college.
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129
Religious Fundamentalist Terrorist Strike Again?
by Justitia Themis init doesn't appear police know the motive for this shooting, but it seems there is a high chance it is religous terrorism.
this doctor has repeatedly put his life on the line to fight fundamentalism.
abortion provider dr. george tiller killed at church.
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Brocephus
I applaud PEC and Journey-on for actually having the balls to have a rational discussion about this. I am really surprised at how many of you choose to just insult and name call me instead of discuss a serious topic.
Sammieswife and GommitsK I give you honorable mention. Sammieswife came real close to being honest and intellectual when you said it's a quantum lead to compare defending a unborn fetus from an abortion doctor to defending a loved on from an attacker. You restated my point in a way.
I agree this shooter made that "quantum leap" in his head somewhere. As Journey-on stated the shooter was so repulsed by the abortions he was right in his own mind. To bash the shoorter or the Doctor as a cold blooded killer is to over simplify a serious matter and ignore the root cause. My question was simple, "Please tell me how late term abortions are not murder?". I indicated I have a lot of emphathetic feelings for the shooters feelings and thinking not his actions. You remind me of the Elders at the KH, bashing me for asking an honest question. Instead of taking the opportunity to be reflective or convincing most of the posters choose to be insulting and trite. It is scary to me how quick a lot of you are to insult and name call when all I was asking for was an honest and mature discussion. A lot of people are here for support and it surprises me how eager some people on here were to label me as "Right wing, Repulican, Rush Limbaughite, Fundamentalist". I would ask you your evidence for calling me such but now I familiar with your logic (or lack of) there is no need to even pose that question.
As far as the issue; That is interesting Pec I would like to see the numbers on late term abortion. The reason I posed that as the question was because this Doctor worked for one of only three Abortion Clinics that would preform and Abortion after the 21st week. The state of Kansas tried him and lost last year for preforming Abortions past the limit their law allows. As far as saving women's lives, I see no indication that these were anything but elective abortions. I believe any doctor can preform a medically necessary abortion at anytime to save a mother's life. This Doctor had been Bombed and Shot before. He knew these folks were after him as they saw him as the worse of the worse. It's still hard for me to swallow a elective abortion of a 5 and half month old fetus. I would still like to hear any rational arguments as to how that is different from murder. Aren't there babies delivered now at 5 and 6 months that survive now? I am not here calling names or judging. I am not even debating if Abortion is or should be legal. I have done nothing but asked for a rational and reasonable argument to counter my initial feelings on this matter.
Isn't funny how I am the one just expressing my thoughts and being open minded, yet I am the one being called an close minded extremist bible thumper by 80% of the posters on this board. Uhhhh huh...... yaaaaaaaaaa..... some of yall have some deprogramming left to do from the bORG, I do beleive.
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129
Religious Fundamentalist Terrorist Strike Again?
by Justitia Themis init doesn't appear police know the motive for this shooting, but it seems there is a high chance it is religous terrorism.
this doctor has repeatedly put his life on the line to fight fundamentalism.
abortion provider dr. george tiller killed at church.
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Brocephus
Keyser: When did this become about me? Did I shoot anyone? Sure I have my personal feelings and have expressed them gently in my postings but, by no means am I saying they are anything but my personal feelings, right or wrong. What bothers me is again you all refuse to enter a logical debate and explain, how late term abortion is not murder. If it isn't then it can be proven correct? I can see very clearly how a western Kansas fundamentalist would see it as such considering I do as well. And, I am very liberal and open minded. I can furthermore see how they would see killing the doctor protecting human life. Does it mean I endorse it or condone this killing? Absolutely not it means I have the mental powers of reason and perception. So if you wish to change peoples minds stop labeling those who oppose you as terrorist or extremeist. To win a debate you need not worry about those who agree with you but those who disagree. I am honestly stating my perception of this event and topic and I get insulted. I am giving yall a chance to change my mind but most of you waste it hurling insults at me. How do you intend to do convince anyone you are right? Instead address the issue and explain how late term abortion is not murder. If someone could have changed the shooter's mind about the issue this Doctor would probably still be alive. So again, someone anyone explain it to me please. I am out of post (much to Dinah's pleasure I am sure).
OK: Dinah can you see how a crack addict would prostitute themselves or steal something for it? Can see their logic understand why they do it? Does it mean you automatically endorse that behavior of course not? Come on, if you want to be a judgmental name caller go back to the KH. The real world is for thinkers.
I guess if you want to spend 1 of your 100 post bragging about your post them go for it. Could you spend 1 honestly and intellectually answering my question or are you content to name call?
Gromit: Again out of post.. But I read your last one. I applaud your effort to use logic and fact and I agree with the basis of what you say. I apologize if you feel like I am talking down to you. This is a debate and I am treating it logically not sensitively, nothing personal. I would tend to agree Abortion is a moral choice that the law allows us to choose. Personally I see nothing wrong things being that way. As I believe we will all be judged right or wrong by the Creator. I could be wrong or I could be right but unlike Dinah I don't think because I "feel it" means it's right. Her feelings tell her I am a prick so she feels she is right, right enough to call me on this board. I feel a lot of things about her, but I don't think it would be right for me to call her those things. She is probably a nice woman, therefore my "feeling" doesn't mean something is what I "feel" it is. The fact that I can feel, understand and even emphathize with the shooter doesn't make what he did right or make my views right. I am being honest, sorry if yall can't tell the difference. I am giving yall a chance to change my mind.
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129
Religious Fundamentalist Terrorist Strike Again?
by Justitia Themis init doesn't appear police know the motive for this shooting, but it seems there is a high chance it is religous terrorism.
this doctor has repeatedly put his life on the line to fight fundamentalism.
abortion provider dr. george tiller killed at church.
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Brocephus
GromitSK: I never said I was right, did I? The US government doesn't think I have the right buy more than 2 boxes of sudafed because the DEA thinks I could build a meth lab. Does that make it right or wrong, no it only makes it legal or illegal. Do you understand the difference? I don't disagree that Abortion is legal and Roe V Wade has been upheld by the Court. That is factual, I would be insane to argue otherwise.
The last Gallup poll concluded that 51% of Americans oppose abortion while 42% support abortion rights. Last time I checked 51% is a majority but regardless that does not change the legality of abortion. I concede that working with the legal system is the civilized way to change Abortion law. But your logic is flawed to say that because something is legal a majority must support that measure. I am sure 99% of Americans disagree with the Income Taxes they pay that doesn't make them legal or illegal. So again, anyone wish to tell me how late term abortion is not murder? I am still listening, patiently waiting.....