It seems to me that many who have left the hive seem to want to do a sort of "anti-preaching", to proclaim the evils of the society, religion, whatever. I agree that certain issues need to be made known to the public, but my question is about how we do it. If we're preachy about it, how effective are we likely to be? Might it be a sign that we still have some JW conditioning in us?
Introspection
JoinedPosts by Introspection
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Still preaching?
by Introspection init seems to me that many who have left the hive seem to want to do a sort of "anti-preaching", to proclaim the evils of the society, religion, whatever.
i agree that certain issues need to be made known to the public, but my question is about how we do it.
if we're preachy about it, how effective are we likely to be?
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Egocentric support?
by Introspection ini thought this would be a good topic as many who are still sorting through the jw experience do not seem to see that their newly adopted worldview is just that, their own.
while i can understand how some would want to just "vent", i fail to see how such behavior helps anyone.
we all know that as jws we went along with what others told us to believe, yet it seems to me that beneath many posts of self expression, there's a subtle tendancy to be pushy, even preachy.
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Introspection
I thought this would be a good topic as many who are still sorting through the JW experience do not seem to see that their newly adopted worldview is just that, their own. While I can understand how some would want to just "vent", I fail to see how such behavior helps anyone. We all know that as JWs we went along with what others told us to believe, yet it seems to me that beneath many posts of self expression, there's a subtle tendancy to be pushy, even preachy. Mind you, I don't see this being limited to those who still hold religious beliefs in some way. Granted this is my own observation, but I just wanted to point out the simple fact that telling people what you think does not encourage them to think for themselves. It may be that sometimes the best course of action is to leave them alone, I for one didn't have any support when I left, and I am just fine now. If we do want to help, lets have their best interest in mind. It's a shame that many otherwise intelligent people seem to be operating out of what Jean Piaget described as pre-operational thought. I don't believe these adults are really limited in their development, but lets be adults and treat each other like adults.
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Psychology of prayer
by Introspection init seems there has been much talk on prayer lately, and i thought it would be helpful for us to discuss the psychological nuts and bolts, without getting into the realm of religious belief.
regardless of whether the source of change is human or divine mind, i think we can agree that the mind is a powerful thing, capable of affecting real change.. my guess is most of us don't pray for money or material things, but those of us who do basically ask for two things: direction and strength, or you might say knowledge and power.
i recall that as jws, we were taught to be specific in our prayers.
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Introspection
Here's a bit more from Be Careful What You Pray For... I suspect that some who are just leaving might be very sensitive to words like evolution, I know I was. Please note that in this context it only points to the development of a trait.
One might wonder whether we have some sort of biological predilection for negativity. Mihaly Csikszentmihalyi, professor and former chairman of the University of Chicago's Department of Psychology, explains in his admirable book, The Evolving Self, why the mind seems to drift inevitably toward unhappiness. He suggests that we may be hardwired for negativity. A pessimistic bias may have been ingrained in our thinking through the long course of evolution. According to evolutionary theory, those traits and behaviors that help an organism survive and reproduce become built in biologically and are perpetuated in subsequent generations. Unhappiness, not happiness Csikszentmihalyi proposes, is more likely to help an organism survive in a hostile environment. If we dwell on negative possibilities, we will be more alert and poised to responed to dangerous events that could happen at any time. "By dwelling on unpleasant possibilities," Csikszentmihalyi states, "we will be better prepared for the unexpected." If this hypothesis is correct, the mind has become trained across our species' long history to turn toward negative thoughts, like a compass needle points northward.
The possible link between our biology and our fascination with the negative side of life raises interesting questions about religion. One of the distinguishing characteristics of many Western religious views is their focus on the innate depravity of human beings and their need to be redeemed or saved. Could our collective religious fascination with the dark side of human nature be a hangover from our remote biological past? Do we find the image of intrinsic depravity more alluring than inner divinity because we have a built-in bias toward unhappiness? Are we destined by our DNA to be more enchanted by our weaknesses than our glory?
If our capacity to focus on negative possibilites and to be unhappy has given us a survival advantage in our long evolutionary history, then unhappiness is a friend and ally deserving our respect and gratitude. Were it not for our intrinsic capacity to feel sad, we might not be around to lament the fact that we are not always ecstatic. Instead of trying to pray away our melancholy, we might consider giving thanks the next time we feel down in the dumps, recalling that unhappiness has paved the way for happiness across the eons. From this perspective we might see that gloominess and joy, like light and shadow, are really in cahoots. This perspective might actually help us endure sadness and might prevent us from becoming trapped in that pathetic, negative feedback loop of becoming unhappier about not feeling happy. If we realized the value of unhappiness in life--not just in our individual life but in the history of our species--we might be more balanced, more stable, and tougher. We might need less Valium.
In view of the potential of our prayers to make matters worse, it is easy to drift into a sense of futility and to abandon prayer altogether. But we should not give up on prayer. There is an expert who knows the specific interventions needed in any complex situation--the Absolute--God, Goddess, Allah, the Tao, Brahman, Universe, however named. Scientists have recently discovered new evidence of this wisdom and have been inventing new terms for it. Experts in chaos theory, for example, have stumbled onto a force called a "strange attractor," an invisible ordering principle or "tug from in front" that guides current situations toward more highly ordered, future states. Some scientists believe that this apparent goal directedness is evidence of a Universal Intelligence, or God, working behind the scenes. The details of these developments need not conern us here. The point is that an innate, invisible wisdom does seem to be present in the universe. We are not required to understand this ordering force. Our task instead may be to cooperate and not interfere with it and to facilitate it where we can--perhaps by setting our personal agendas aside and praying "Thy will be done" instead of "My will be done."
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Psychology of prayer
by Introspection init seems there has been much talk on prayer lately, and i thought it would be helpful for us to discuss the psychological nuts and bolts, without getting into the realm of religious belief.
regardless of whether the source of change is human or divine mind, i think we can agree that the mind is a powerful thing, capable of affecting real change.. my guess is most of us don't pray for money or material things, but those of us who do basically ask for two things: direction and strength, or you might say knowledge and power.
i recall that as jws, we were taught to be specific in our prayers.
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Introspection
It seems there has been much talk on prayer lately, and I thought it would be helpful for us to discuss the psychological nuts and bolts, without getting into the realm of religious belief. Regardless of whether the source of change is human or divine mind, I think we can agree that the mind is a powerful thing, capable of affecting real change.
My guess is most of us don't pray for money or material things, but those of us who do basically ask for two things: direction and strength, or you might say knowledge and power. I recall that as JWs, we were taught to be specific in our prayers. It occurs to me that we assume we know or can know what it is that we want, (perhaps we do, but it may not be what we actually need) and we are essentially asking for a higher power to do our bidding. Naturally, those of us who are leaving the organization are likely to be hurt, but I'd like to point out that like physical pain, it indicates something is wrong. If we did not have pain at all we would never notice more serious problems, it is simply a signal that points to the real problem. I think it is important to recognize the complexity of the issues involved rather than get caught up in our feelings. It may seem overwhelming at first, but surely those who still believe in God don't think that we should be sheltered from all harm without ever having to understand any of it.
The following quotes are from the book Be Careful What You Pray For ... You Just Might Get It by Larry Dossey, MD. Dossey served as co-chairman of the original Panel on Mind/Body Interventions, Office of Alternative Medicine at the National Institutes of Health and is the executive editor of Alternative Therapies, a peer-reviewed journal. My intention for sharing these quotes is not to cause any alarm, but to encourage us to think about the possible implications that our prayers might have.
One of the most helpful frameworks for thinking about how prayer backfires has been developed by sociologist Charles Perrow. Unintended consequences occur, he states, when we intervene in complex technological systems whose components are so intimately connected that changes in one part of the system results in unforseen changes in others. In such a system, Perrow states, "operator error" is inevitable.
----The issue is not that we pray, but how we pray. When something goes wrong in our life, we tend to invoke prayers involving highly specific, designated outcomes. We're certain we have the knowledge to set things right, and we waste no time telling the Absolute what to do. We do not realize we are interfering in a highly complex, tightly coupled system that, when tweaked, often responds in unpredictable ways. Giving orders with prayer invites disaster. It is rather like hitting a card table from below, hoping that the pieces of the jigsaw puzzle on top will fall into greater order than before. This may happen, but usually the result is more disorganization.
------Our lives are exquisitely linked with the members of our family, community, nation, and world. Our tight coupling with others and our world sets the stage for a negative outcome when we employ specific interventions ... When the results are worse than before, prayer is often blamed for "not working." But the real problem may not be prayer, but an operator error--how prayer is used and what is asked for."
Of course, this begs the question: How are we supposed to pray? I think this is where acceptance comes in. To affect change, we have to first understand where we're coming from, so we have to see where things are at the present moment, rather than just wanting the suffering to be over.
We may also find ourselves praying for strength to cope, rather than having a specific agenda. This is fine, but I think we need to be wise in how we invest our energy, just as Stephen has pointed out through Caroline Myss' work. This idea of coping and "hanging in there" seems to imply not doing anything, just allowing things to continue as they are, which inevitably leads to a feeling of stagnation. While I think we should clearly assess the situation, it is also within our power to do something about it. It may be small at first and it may be slow, but the important thing is to begin, and that starts with our intention.
Please, share your thoughts on this topic. It seems to me it is very important to many who are breaking away and if we make some sense of it, it would no doubt be helpful.
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new
by bonnie38 ini have been browsing this site for a short time, and i have found it very inteteresting.
my personal story is lengthy, so i will not bore you with it at this time.
this is my dilemma: i was disfellowshipped four years ago.
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Introspection
Hi Bonnie, first I'd like to welcome you to this board. As far as this feeling of worthlessness is concerned, I'm sure you see that it is based on the JW opinion of personal worth. No doubt you know the bible says God reads the heart. You say you still believe in basic bible teachings, while I don't know exactly what that is for you I do want to point out that there's a big difference between those teachings and the approval of man. After all, disfellowshipping is basically peer pressure isn't it? It may be that you still long for the fellowship of those days, but if it is just the opinion of man, what is THAT worth?
It's just that at the end of the day, down deep inside I still feel like a worthless person.
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Atheists/Agnostics/Prayer
by patio34 inon the subject of prayer: this is addressed to the more atheistic or agnostic ones amongst us.. now, all those years i prayed really hard when times were tough, and then things worked out.
i now believe it was my own hard work that gave the solutions.
prayer was helpful in that i felt i had help.
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Introspection
Comf, no you don't want to make that assumption, and that is not what I am saying. My point isn't about having help or no help, but it's a matter of acceptance. As long as you are still personally identified with the circumstances, your analysis will be less than objective. I don't want to repeat myself as we've been discussing this under Mental Health, but suffice it to say to really make informed decisions you need a quality of openness. If you're so caught up with your own plan then you may not see it when someone happens to offer a helping hand. Even if help isn't intended, you can miss the opportunity if you are not open to it.
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Atheists/Agnostics/Prayer
by patio34 inon the subject of prayer: this is addressed to the more atheistic or agnostic ones amongst us.. now, all those years i prayed really hard when times were tough, and then things worked out.
i now believe it was my own hard work that gave the solutions.
prayer was helpful in that i felt i had help.
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Introspection
Well, I think it would be a mistake to think we're all alone, even if you don't believe in supernatural causes. It seems to me there is one key thing about prayer, and that's intention. I guess that has more to do with the kind of prayer where we're looking for something, though there's also the 'ol "thy will be done" kind, which seems to me is more like acceptance. We can't control the outcome of our efforts after all, but of course we try. I guess what I'm trying to say is, just don't close your eyes and go at it blindly as if you are all there is. You want to own your own stuff, but I think ultimately, ownership is illusory in the big picture.
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Tales from the Couch
by Seven ini asked my therapist if it is possible for a patient to be re-traumatized during the course of treatment.
confronting memories over and over again.
painting mental images even more graphic to replace the vague ones i once had-is this a good thing?
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Introspection
Seven, I'm really happey for you. I think you do know the reason though, even if the process isn't clear. You said so yourself, you're free.
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Introspection
Acapulco welcome, have you posted your story yet?
Stephen, lets set something up for when you visit the area.
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Have I changed?
by mommy inas most of you know i am new to the world of the internet.
therefore i am new to the discussion board forum.
when i first entered simon's place, i did not fear to speak my mind.
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Introspection
I just wanted to comment on Patio's message, I also think you can get to know others on a deeper level online. Having been online since I was about 12 I know it's a meaningful connection for me. Basically, I think it's a matter of self disclosure. How much and how honestly you share determines the quality of the exchange, and I think it's evident that many on this board have really poured their hearts out in this way.