Posts by PSacramento

302

TEC Documentary hypothesis

by mP in

continuing on our mini discussing at.

http://jehovahs-witness.net/watchtower/beliefs/246435/8/greatest-show-on-earth#4664173.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/documentary_hypothesis.

TEC Documentary hypothesis

by mP in

continuing on our mini discussing at.

http://jehovahs-witness.net/watchtower/beliefs/246435/8/greatest-show-on-earth#4664173.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/documentary_hypothesis.

PSacramento

jgnat,

You seemed to be concerend that not everyone understands the voice of their Lord and/or God the same way, yes?

Is there a reason why you think people of different life expereinces, people of different backgrounds, people with different understandings and goals in life, would hear the same message with the same details in the same way at the same time ?

302

TEC Documentary hypothesis

by mP in

continuing on our mini discussing at.

http://jehovahs-witness.net/watchtower/beliefs/246435/8/greatest-show-on-earth#4664173.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/documentary_hypothesis.

PSacramento

It makes you wonder why Matthew uses Mark's account about the conversion of Matthew.

Probably because the GOM was not written directly by Matthew ( the Tax collector) but probably by one of his aides/followers.

It is the Gospel according to Matthew, not the Gospel written by Matthew.

One theory goes that while Matt wrote the orginal in Aramaic (or hebrew), when it was written in greek the copiest/editor added things that were not there before to make it more complete and used Mark (possibly as a source).

Truth is we don't know.

42

Is God's Name Yahweh or Jehovah?

by Soldier77 in

http://www.catholic.com/quickquestions/is-gods-name-yahweh-or-jehovah.

subject title refers to the link that i found in another thread, somewhat buried in text, but i thought it deserved to be highlighted.

take the time to read it if you can and just sit and think about it for a second, think about all of the hate and disgust jw's have for the cc and just let that truth settle in.. amazing really.

PSacramento

I remeber my mom once saying that even Catholic priests know that God's name is Jehovah because they use it sometimes.

I said to her, of course they know, they invented that name and I proceeded to show her HOW it came to be, inculding from the JW book, "the name that will endure' where it states that Yahweh is probably more correct but that Jehovah is used because it is more popular.

302

TEC Documentary hypothesis

by mP in

continuing on our mini discussing at.

http://jehovahs-witness.net/watchtower/beliefs/246435/8/greatest-show-on-earth#4664173.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/documentary_hypothesis.

PSacramento

When I first read about the various sources in Genesis and in the synoptic gospels it made so much sense.

Indeed. I recall on one class we had the debate about the synoptic gospels and not so much who used whom as source or even the validity of the "Q" hypothesis, but WHY the writers would have needed a source other than their own expereince.

I pointed out that, there is no reason to believe that ALL apostles were with Jesus ALL the time for ALL 3 years.

Mark wrote, according to some, what Peter would tell him whenever Peter felt liek telling him or maybe when Peter re-told something to others.

Matthew ( or thw writer of GOM) wrote basedon what He expereinced and, according to some, used Mark for thinsg that he may not have been witness to.

Luke wasn't eyewitness to anything, so of course he used all sources he could.

John ( whoever He was) wrote more of a theological narrative than a "choronological account" of all the events.

302

TEC Documentary hypothesis

by mP in

continuing on our mini discussing at.

http://jehovahs-witness.net/watchtower/beliefs/246435/8/greatest-show-on-earth#4664173.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/documentary_hypothesis.

PSacramento

The documentary hypothesis does a good job of answering real problems with Genesis and the other books of the torah.

The fragmentation, contradictions, duplications and starkly differing depictions of God/J are consistent with multiple sources, ie, the four mentioned,

J, E, P and D.

What is the other hypothesis?

That God authored it, and did a poor job of editing?

Indeed.

Even just looking at "writing styles" you can see that there had to have been more than one writer.

The compliers of the bible books and letters knew this so they had no issues in leaving in supposed "contridictions" and "difficulties" that people that WANT to bible to be "inerant and infalliable" in ALL reagrds, have to deal with and try to reconcile.

That different writers had different views at different times in regards to their understanding of God will is clear then as it is today even.

273

greatest show on earth

by unstopableravens in

i wanted to start this thread two weeks ago,however i have had alot going on with wifey and the elders,that is another thread.

to be honest my mind has been on my family.

i will be able to discuss the book tommorow morning.

PSacramento

Its been awhile since i read this book but I liked it.

Dawkins is great when he explains the evidence and facts about evolution and leaves the reader to "reconcile " things for themselves.

He doesn't need to be preachy or take shots at beleivers ( though explaing the issues with YEC makes perfect sense under the context of the book).

I do recommend this book to anyone that wants to get a passionate and great view of evolution by one of the most popular evolutionary biologists out there.

27

Early church fathers

by Rattigan350 in

in a post by leolaia she stated:.

then the trinity brochure came out and i almost immediately became upset at its intellectual dishonesty, as by this time i was very familiar with the early church fathers and recognized that the brochure distorted heavily their views.. .

early church fathers and their views?

PSacramento

What historical proof have you got for xian persecution during the 1st - 2nd century

To what degree and extend Christians were persecuted is debated by some scholars.

That there was some persecution is recognised by most.

From Wiki:

Under Nero

Main article: Great Fire of Rome See also: Early centers of Christianity#Rome A Christian Dirce, by Henryk Siemiradzki. A Christian woman is martyred in a re-enactment of the myth of Dirce (murdered by being tied to the horns of a bull), while emperor Nero looks on (central figure).

Evidence from ancient documents suggests that the persecution of Christians by the Roman government did not occur until the reign of Nero. [ 56 ] In 64, a great fire broke out in Rome, destroying portions of the city and economically devastating the Roman population. Tacitus records (Annals 15.44) that Nero was rumored to have ordered the fire himself, and in order to dispel the accusations, accused and savagely punished the already-detested Christians. Suetonius mentions that Christians were killed under Nero's reign, but does not mention anything about the fire (Nero 16.2) [ 60 ] Scholars disagree about whether Christians were persecuted solely under the charge of organized arson or for other general crimes associated with Christianity. [ 56 ] [ 61 ]

Because Tertullian mentions an institutum Neronianum in his apology "To the Nations", scholars also debate the possibility of a creation of a law or decree against the Christians under Nero. However, it has been argued that in context, the institutum Neronianum merely describes the persecutions; it does not provide a legal basis for them. Furthermore, no known writers show knowledge of a law against Christians [ 62 ]

Christian writers claim that the apostles Saint Peter and Saint Paul were martyred in Rome during this persecution; the only evidence for this claim is derived from later martyrologies.

Under Domitian

According to some historians, Jews and Christians were heavily persecuted toward the end of Domitian's reign (89-96). [ 63 ] The Book of Revelation, which mentions at least one instance of martyrdom (Rev 2:13; cf. 6:9), is thought by many scholars to have been written during Domitian's reign. [ 64 ] [ 65 ] Eusebius, a scholar of biblical canon, wrote that the social conflict described by Revelation reflects Domitian's organization of excessive and cruel banishments and executions of Christians, but these claims may be exaggerated or false. [ 66 ] Many historians, however, have maintained that there was little or no persecution of Christians during Domitian's time. [ 67 ] [ 68 ] [ 69 ] The lack of consensus by historians about the extent of persecution during the reign of Domitian derives from the fact that while accounts of persecution exist, these accounts are very cursory or their reliability is debated. [ 61 ]

Often, reference is made to the execution of Flavius Clemens, a Roman consul and cousin of the Emperor, and the banishment of his wife, Flavia Domitilla, to the island of Pandateria. Eusebius alleges that Flavia Domitilla was banished because she was a Christian, leading some modern interpreters to suggest the same. However, Dio's account 67.14.1-2) only reports that she, along with many others, was guilty of sympathy for Judaism, [ 70 ] and Suetonis does not mention the exile at all [ 71 ] According to Keresztes, it is far more probable is that they were converts to Judaism who attempted to evade payment of the Fiscus Iudaicus - the tax imposed on all persons who practiced Judaism. (262-265). [ 64 ] In any case, no stories of Christian persecution during Domitian's reign reference any sort of legal ordinances [ 61 ]

Under Trajan

Main article: Pliny the Younger on Christians

Between 109 and 111, Pliny the Younger was sent by the emperor Trajan (r. 98-117) to the province of Bithynia (in Anatolia) as governor, and their correspondence is considered a valuable historical source. In one of his letters (Letter 10.96), he inquires about both the charge against and the punishment for Christians. [ 56 ] While some scholars believe that this inquiry shows that Christians had been persecuted in the past, [ 72 ] others find that this shows they were accused but not persecuted. [ 61 ] Because the letter also raises the question about whether Christians should be persecuted for their rumored terrible deeds they (flagitia) their Christianity itself (Superstitio); there is no scholarly consensus on Pliny's beliefs on the matter. [ 56 ] [ 73 ] The correspondence also shows that Trajan gave no definite rules or laws about the persecution of Christians [ 56 ] and did not wish to seek out Christians or accept anonymous delations. [ 56 ] <Timothy D. Barnes, Chapter 11 ("Persecution") in Tertullian (1971, revised 1985). pp. 145–146.</ref> Many scholars believe that this order was often ignored in the provinces, and Christians were anonymously delated?. The letter also shows that Christians were only tested and forced to perform sacrifices only once they were accused, evidencing the accusatory rather than inquisitory nature of the persecution of Christians before 250. [ 56

52

Josephus and Jesus

by jhine in

on another thread wot i read a few days ago and can't remember which one, someone asked why josephus never mentions jesus .

at the time i had no knowledge of this so kept quiet .

however today while reading an excellent book (don't know if i should advertise but if anyone wants the title let me know ) i have found out that josephus mentions jesus in around about manner.

PSacramento

I recall that debate Terry.

Both made valid poiints in my view.

It's funny, people tend to "see" what they want and that h appens on BOTH sides, ex:

http://www.apologetics315.com/2010/04/craig-evans-vs-bart-ehrman-debate-does.html

http://winteryknight.wordpress.com/2010/04/06/must-see-craig-evans-vs-bart-ehrman-on-the-reliability-of-the-gospels/

302

TEC Documentary hypothesis

by mP in

continuing on our mini discussing at.

http://jehovahs-witness.net/watchtower/beliefs/246435/8/greatest-show-on-earth#4664173.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/documentary_hypothesis.

PSacramento

To read something literaly is to read it within it's literary context.

It is not to read it in a "literal and concrete" manner.

I agree with the multi-source WRITINGS of Genesis.

Genesis 1 gives an account of the creation of the world, whereas Genesis 2 focuses on the events withing Eden.

Not two different accounts in regards to creation, but two different stories about creation.