Posts by jgnat

8

Who is Shiloh?

by jgnat in

what got me studying shiloh?

the following is extracted from wt october 1, 2002 comfort in a troubled world, nov 24 study, cultivate obedience as the end draws near paragraphs 1, 2. the article goes on to explain how the faithful and discreet slave are ambassadors substituting for christ(para 4).

here are the beginning paragraphs:.

jgnat

Thanks, A Paduan, for responding to a rather dry and quiet post. The women danced in the vineyards on festival days (Judges 21:19-23). I read that Hannah went here to worship, so Eli and his sons were there already. Samuel must have stuck around. It seems to me that Shiloh would be a nice, peaceful town to put down roots and build a home (at least until the Philistines got there).

I wanted to bring in a broader perspective than offered in the WTS article, which suggested that Shiloh symbolizes the right to rule and command.

Come unto me, all ye that labor and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest. Mat 11:28 ASV

13

Comments You Will Not Hear at the 11-24 WT Study

by blondie in

sorry this is late.. comments you will not hear at the wt study 11-24-02. october 1, 2002 watchtower page 17. cultivate obedience as the end draws near"to [shiloh] the obedience of the peoples will belong.

"genesis 49:10. introduction.

the first thought that went through my mind was why obedience was highlighted so much, what happened to love?

jgnat

Right on again, Blondie.

The following are my own comments on WT October 1, 2002 Comfort in a Troubled World, Nov 24 Study, "Cultivate Obedience as the End Draws Near"

P. 1, 2 I did my own study on Shiloh here. Jesus consistently fulfilled many prophesies foretelling his arrival from Genesis on. His kingship and authority have been firmly established.

P. 3 When Jesus ascended in to heaven, he did not immediately take up the scepter of rulership over the peoples of the world. The references given (Psalm 110:1, Colossians 1:13, Acts 2:1-4) provide no proofs as to when Jesus' kingship was established.

P.4 As "ambassadors substituting for Christ", the spirit-anointed disciples obediently started to gather others who would become "fellow citizens" in that spiritual kingdom. From Acts 2:43-47 I inferred that the Holy Spirit gathered, and the disciples enthusiastically participated with joy and generosity. Did the first century Christians have circuit overseers and time cards to monitor this enthusiastic gathering activity?

Additionally , these had to remain "fitly in the same mind and in the same line of thought" in order to enjoy the approval of their King Jesus Christ. (1 Corinthians 1:1)

Paul was reprimanding the people for dividing over silly arguments,

"Some of you are saying, "I am a follower of Paul." Others are saying, "I follow Apollos," or "I follow Peter," or "I follow only Christ" 1 Corinthians 1:12NLT or, "I follow the Faithful and Discreet Slave". oops. Did I just add two what is written?

P.5, 6 Jehovah has always provided teachers for his people Yes, the FDS is priming us for the key message of this article, that the FDS is the exclusive spirit-anointed teacher of Jehovah's Word today. Um, excuse me, raising hand...who provided food in season for faithful Christians between the time of the first-century Christians to modern times? The Aryans? Forerunners to the Seventh-Day Adventists? That sure left a lot of faithful Christians out in the cold, didnt it? Come to think of it, if the FDS is right, there are billions of Christians today that are left out in the cold as well. What are the signs accompanying the FDS's claim to exclusive providers of our Masters food?

the Governing Body has clarified such important issues as

..tithing mint and cummin? (Matthew 23:23)

P. 7 Hold your noses, folks...By submitting to the slave class, God's people also show their subjection to the Master, Jesus Christ. How many times was the existence of the FDS foretold in the Hebrew scriptures? In the Greek scriptures? Hold it a moment. Servants and slaves are at the bottom of the ladder. They do not direct, they submit. Jesus asked the disciples to be servants to each other. No one was to be greater than his brother. He set the example, and asked all who followed him to do the same.

Could they be referring to

Behold, my servant whom I have chosen; My beloved in whom my soul is well pleased: I will put my Spirit upon him, And he shall declare judgment to the Gentiles. Mat 12:18 ASV

- but that refers to Jesus.

The Parable of the Unforgiving Slave? Matthew 18:21-35
The Parable of the King's Servants? Matthew 25:14-30, Luke 19:11-27
The Parable of the Evil Farmers? Mark 12:1-12, Luke 20:8-19, Matthew 21:23-27 - but the servant here was murdered. Jesus was talking of himself.

None of these scriptures imply that blind obedience to the slave is required. On the contrary, these parables make it clear that servants are held accountable for their actions.

No longer do I call you servants; for the servant knoweth not what his lord doeth: but I have called you friends; for all things that I heard from my Father, I have made known unto you. John 15:5 ASV

Can we be a friend of Jesus in these last days?

P. 8 In that year (1914) Christs invisible "presence" as Messianic King began..Um, excuse me teacher, how does the following scripture apply?

For as the lightning lights up the entire sky, so it will be when the Son of Man comes. Matthew 24:27 NLT

P. 9 Since then, these wicked spirits have fomented unprecedented woe for mankind, besides fostering an environment that makes obedience to Jehovah a challenge. It is a commonly held belief that we are living in the wickedest time of the world, and experiencing unprecedented natural disasters. This is a belief that has been common to man for as long as we have had the written word. The worst disaster in the world, according to the Guinness Book of World Records, was the Pandemic of 1347-51. The Black Death claimed an estimated 75 million people. People believed back then the end times were upon them, too. Why is obedience to Jehovah a challenge?

Take my yoke upon you, and learn of me; for I am meek and lowly in heart: and ye shall find rest unto your souls. For my yoke is easy, and my burden is light. Matthew 11:29, 30 ASV

In fact, the main target of Satans spiritual warfare consists of Jehovahs anointed ones...and their "other sheep" companions.

Perhaps the sheep are not burdened down by Satan, but by heavy burden of the interpretation of the law.

For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous. For whatsoever is begotten of God overcometh the world: and this is the victory that hath overcome the world, even our faith. And who is he that overcometh the world, but he that believeth that Jesus is the Son of God? 1 John 5:3-5 ASV

Yea, they bind heavy burdens and grievous to be borne, and lay them on men's shoulders; but they themselves will not move them with their finger. Matthew 23:4 ASV

10 Satan is doomed to failure. What a relief. That picture of Satans demons being hurled to earth had me terrified for a moment there. Unlike their anointed companions, however, these ones will become Jesus obedient earthly subjects (Daniel 7:13,14) Gee. The Daniel reference does not make any mention of "other sheep". That scripture makes it sound like Jesus is given dominion over the whole world, all 6,292,456,884 of them.

11 Those who are not obedient to the good news will be destroyed. What is the good news?

12 Nope. Not talking about good news. We are back on Satan and "the spirit of the world" again.

13 Wow! They snuck in my favourite scripture! Galatians 5:22, 23. That scripture is not about obedience. Or the good news.

14 Oh. The seven candlesticks and seven stars were not seven different Churches, but seven congregations of the Jehovahs Witnesses. (Revelation 1:10, 11) I wonder which ones? Japan? Europe? Africa? I guess these admonitions will not be of any use outside of the WTS. Where is the good news we are to be obedient to?

15-19 The seven letters are expounded upon. No more mention of the fruit of the spirit (Galatians 5:22, 23). No more mention of the good news. More talk about keeping morally pure, regular bible study, meeting attendance, prayer and meditation.

It seems to me that Witnesses should be up on what the good news is, if they want to avoid destruction.

16 Yes, for immorality is by far the leading cause for disfellowshipping among Gods people. How important, therefore, that we avoid association with all individuals - inside and outside the congregation - who are morally corrupting influences...eschew questionable entertainment as well as printed and Internet pornography. Based on the illustration,a guy with a tacky tie and flowers is morally corrupting influence. Picture Laverne and Squiggy from the Laverne and Shirley show. Better keep away from mom and dad and brothers and sisters and children and neighbours and grandma and grandpa and in-laws and all those worldly folks, no matter how nice they seem. Better stop taking the bus to work. Darn. Work is full of them too. Better work from home. Or better still, begin full-time Pioneer work. Use gloves when knocking on the strangers door. All that corruption might be contagious!

20 In the Lords day, beginning in 1914, a faithful remnant and their other sheep companions, now numbering millions, have also kept Jesus word by sharing zealously in the ministry and by holding fast to their integrity. Yes, but have they been sharing the good news? Do they even know what the good news is? And what of the great crowd of witnesses, the heroes of the faith, who have stood for God over the last 2000 years? What of them?

21 As we approach the great tribulation, the faithful and discreet slave remains resolved not to compromise its obedience to the Master, Christ. Thats lucky for them (oops I mean fortunate). Jesus promised some pretty nasty stuff for unfaithful slaves who hurt his sheep. This includes preparing timely spiritual food for Gods household. I am waiting...what is the good news? So let us continue to appreciate Jehovahs wonderful theocratic organization. I dont think so. I will be obedient to the good news, not imperfect men in an imperfect organization.

Note: Italics are quotes from WT materials.

I use Quotes for bible references.

8

Who is Shiloh?

by jgnat in

what got me studying shiloh?

the following is extracted from wt october 1, 2002 comfort in a troubled world, nov 24 study, cultivate obedience as the end draws near paragraphs 1, 2. the article goes on to explain how the faithful and discreet slave are ambassadors substituting for christ(para 4).

here are the beginning paragraphs:.

jgnat

What got me studying Shiloh?

The following is extracted from WT October 1, 2002 Comfort in a Troubled World, Nov 24 Study, Cultivate Obedience as the End Draws Near Paragraphs 1, 2. The article goes on to explain how the Faithful and Discreet Slave are ambassadors substituting for Christ(para 4). Here are the beginning paragraphs:

1 Obedience to Jehovah has often involved obedience to his representatives..(

examples are given and Isaiah 9:6,7 is referenced).Jacob prophesied about this future ruler: "The Scepter will not turn aside from Judah, neither the commanders staff from between his feet, until Shiloh comes; and to him the obedience of the peoples will belong." Genesis 49:10 NWT

2 "Shiloh" is a Hebrew term meaning "He Whose It is" or "He to Whom it Belongs". Yes, Shiloh would inherit nothing less than the right to rulership, as symbolized by the scepter, and the power to command...

The message here is Shilohs right to rule and command. Is this an accurate interpretation of the scriptures? I took a closer look, and concluded that the prophesy that started with Jacob in Genesis, and repeated by Zecharaiah, was fulfilled in Mark 11 when Jesus entered Jerusalem on a colt. Jesus replaced the old law with a higher law based on humility, sacrifice, and mercy that glorious day he entered Jerusalem. I base these conclusions on a study on the meaning of Shiloh, and the intertwining prophesy and fulfillment with the humble image Jesus riding the back of a young colt on the way to his own death.

The Meaning of Shiloh

The Reasoning book gives the definition of Shiloh as "He Whose It Is", but I do not know where that originates from. The word and its root gives a strong message of peace and contentment. Here is Strongs definition of Shiloh:

shee-lo': From H7951; tranquil; Shiloh, an epithet of the Messiah: - Shiloh. Genesis 49:9-11 is the only use of this word.

shaw-law', shaw-lav' H7951: The second form being used in Job 3:26 a primitive root; to be tranquil, that is, secure or successful: - be happy, prosper, be in safety.

All the references for H7951 and H7961 (Shiloh) indeed have to do with tranquillity and contentment. The NWT consistently translates this word as carefree, at ease, free from care. (1Ch 4:40, Job 3:26, 12:6, 16:12, 20:20, 21:23, Psa 73:12, 122:6, Lam 1:5, Jer 12:1, Eze 23:42 Zec 7:6-7). Shiloh will be a different kind of ruler than has ever been seen before.

Shiloh is Also a Place

Shiloh was the town where the worship tent was set up after the conquest of Canaan. Shiloh became the centre of Israel's worship, and the tent was replaced by a more permanent building. Each year a special festival was held there. About 1050 BC, Shiloh was destroyed by the Philistines. I concluded from this that Shiloh is also associated with worship.

Jacobs Prophecy

Instead of starting with Isaiah (as the WT study did), lets start at the beginning. Jacob gave this prophesy to his son, Judah.

And Jacob called unto his sons, and said: gather yourselves together, that I may tell you that which shall befall you in the latter days... Judah is a lion's whelp; From the prey, my son, thou art gone up: He stooped down, he couched as a lion, And as a lioness; who shall rouse him up? The sceptre shall not depart from Judah, Nor the ruler's staff from between his feet, Until Shiloh come: And unto him shall the obedience of the peoples be. Binding his foal unto the vine, And his ass's colt unto the choice vine; He hath washed his garments in wine, And his vesture in the blood of grapes: Genesis 49:1, 9-11 ASV

Judah was the tribe responsible for worship, and as we can see from above, Shiloh is also strongly associated with worship. Judah's ruler's staff will transfer to Shiloh when he comes. And how will we know the rulership transfer has come? We will see the young colt. And the new ruler will wash his garments in blood.

Zechariahs Prophecy

Rejoice greatly, O daughter of Zion; shout, O daughter of Jerusalem: behold, thy king cometh unto thee; he is just, and having salvation; lowly, and riding upon an ass, even upon a colt the foal of an ass. Zec 9:9 ASV

This king will be a different kind of ruler than has ever been seen before.

The Gospel Accounts

And finally, Jesus directly references Zechariahs prophecy in Matthew's account of Jesus' ride in to Jerusalem:

Now this is come to pass, that it might be fulfilled which was spoken through the prophet, saying, Tell ye the daughter of Zion, Behold, thy King cometh unto thee, Meek, and riding upon an ass, And upon a colt the foal of an ass. And the disciples went, and did even as Jesus appointed them, and brought the ass, and the colt, and put on them their garments; and he sat thereon. And the most part of the multitude spread their garments in the way; and others cut branches from the trees, and spread them in the way. And the multitudes that went before him, and that followed, cried, saying, Hosanna to the son of David: Blessed is he that cometh in the name of the Lord; Hosanna in the highest. Matthew 21:4-9 ASV

Mark, Luke, and John also added their accounts (Mark 11:4-10 Luke 19:30-40 John 2:12-16). The event was marked by music, celebration and dancing - worship to a new kind of King. The people who recognized him and worshipped him were the simple folk of Jerusalem. They celebrated and obeyed a King who gave his life instead of taking lives.

Judah's ruler's staff transferred to Shiloh when he came. He came humbly, riding on a young colt. And our new ruler washed his garments in blood. Our new king established a new covenant, asking us to remember Him by drinking the blood of grapes, His blood, which he freely gave for our lives. Therefore the old law of obedience to rules and commands is replaced by the higher law of humility, sacrifice, and mercy. The slant given by the WTS article is wrong. Jacobs prophecy was not intended to enforce obedience, but to bring tranquillity and contentment to ordinary people everywhere.

Note:

Italics are quotes from WT materials.

I use Quotes for bible references.

26

Are There Any Episcopalians Out There?

by Robdar in

jw
friends

okay, the episcopalians are out to convert me.

i have recently made a couple of new friends, both episcopalian, and they are eager for me to attend one of their services.

they have nothing but good things to say about their church and its members.

jgnat

Sorry, not me. I found a link, though http://www.episcopalian.org/eorg/Primer/whoweare.htm

They look fine to me, but keep in mind my experience with Christianity is far more positive than what most of you guys have faced. I am much more ready to trust, and not so hung up on what I consider minor points of theology. What I have seen around the board, I think you will find more pleasure in your spiritual journey if you take your time. You have no obligation towards these lovely people. If you need to step away for a while and think about things, that is entirely your right.

One of the big differences between Christendom's Churches and the FDS, is that you do not have to sign your life away to these people. Pick and choose. Come and go. Revel in your freedom. You will be accepted either way.

24

Best Country for Immigrants...America

by WhyNow2000 in

jw
friends

lately, there has been a lot of lively discussion about the good the bad and the ugly about .

what i want to know is which country is the best for immigrants?

every government is a bad government until it is compared to other governments.

jgnat

Canada is the best place for immigrants.

I am sixth generation Canadian. Most of my ancestors come from Scotland. My daughter married an immigrant. Lately, she has been disgusted by the ignorant comments from people who don't know any better, who claim that immigrants are taking away jobs from native born Canadians.

I told her, the next time they opened up a Michelina's or other microwave dinner, ask them how much they enjoy it. Then ask them if they knew they were eating a meal prepared by an immigrant. Ditto for the clothes on their back. The truth of the matter is, my daughter's husband will do jobs no native-born Canadian would touch, and he does it gladly. In two years, he picked up English as his seventh language. He has drive, intelligence, ambition, and a great attitude. He is grateful for the freedom and peace our country has to offer, and amazed that any Canadian can pursue secondary education regardless of family connections or finances. I figure he is an asset to our country. I hope six generations from now, his descendants will defend the rights of the next wave of immigrants who wish to join in our prosperity.

So there.

21

Head Coverings as a Sign of Submission

by jgnat in

this topic came up in chat.

as an outsider looking in, i find the whole "throw a napkin on your head, quick" thing ludicrous at best.

it seems a lot of women resent the practice as humiliating and degrading.

jgnat

JT It seems from my informal poll that people will do the most silly things, and be comfortable with it, if it fits with what they believe.

Blondie and Elsewhere, if I recall, the disciples asked Jesus HOW to pray, not WHO could pray. Jesus did not mention dishrags, either. My JW honey has a pathetically weak prayer life for someone supposedly dedicated to Jehovah. He does not like praying aloud. He is hesitant and fearful of sounding silly. That hesitancy to pray is about as bad as a worldly person. Is this typical?

Thanks, SYN. are you the boards token male feminist?

California Sunshine - I wonder if head covering would be more accepted if it were a recognizable item of clothing, like the Jewish boys wear. They seem to understand that whipping out the old covering in front of the uninitiated is more a distraction than a symbol of reverence.

SPAZnik - What do head coverings have to do with politics?

Mouthy ROTFL. Maybe a little levity will help a lurker or two see themselves a little more honestly.

21

Head Coverings as a Sign of Submission

by jgnat in

this topic came up in chat.

as an outsider looking in, i find the whole "throw a napkin on your head, quick" thing ludicrous at best.

it seems a lot of women resent the practice as humiliating and degrading.

jgnat

Great reply, Blondie. I like how you stick to your guns with confidence. Xandria, thanks for clearing that up. Country Girl, I am glad you had your say (to a bigger audience this time).

Edited by - jgnat on 20 November 2002 23:8:51

21

Head Coverings as a Sign of Submission

by jgnat in

this topic came up in chat.

as an outsider looking in, i find the whole "throw a napkin on your head, quick" thing ludicrous at best.

it seems a lot of women resent the practice as humiliating and degrading.

jgnat

ROTFL, Valis. I don't think this is what Paul had in mind...of course, that is only my opinion...

58

Cats and lawnmowers

by troucul in

jw
friends

ok guys, (simon probably won't like this thread) what's the worst thing you did as a kid to a defenseless animal?

me, i liked to throw rocks at frogs.

my mom was so mad when she saw me..... the girls are gonna be pissed..... rotfl

jgnat

Mosquitoes are the instruments of torture in northern Alberta. My son, in revenge, would catch them, live, and microwave them.

They moved really fast just before they died.

21

Head Coverings as a Sign of Submission

by jgnat in

this topic came up in chat.

as an outsider looking in, i find the whole "throw a napkin on your head, quick" thing ludicrous at best.

it seems a lot of women resent the practice as humiliating and degrading.

jgnat

Concerned Mama - from the outside, the dripping dishtowels sure does look weird, doesn't it? By the way, I let my hotmail account expire, but it is up and running again. I think it is time I came out of hiding and had a face-to-face with you some time, if you are up to it. A mini-apostafest in BRRREdmonton.

Tres Happy, . Island Woman, I think you are dead on with the Bible Customs thought. I often ask my honey (when he gets on his first century Christian soapbox) why the witnesses don't wear sandals door to door. How else are they gonna shake the sand out? Xandria, are we talking about the same chat experience? My memory has holes like swiss cheese. Blondie - I am curious about your avoidance technique. Did you run out of the room when an Elder showed up? A friend told me in the UK women still wear their bonnets to church. A more conservative bunch?