Posts by jgnat

144

Have you ever read the review of Steven Hassan's books on Cult news.com?

by Enzo in

hi, to everyone my username is enzo, .

recently a saw a video presented by john cedar presenting steve hassan as a cult expert.. .

but read this reviews presented on cult news about steve hassan's books, and it's up to you make your own opinion about the video.

jgnat

No, you haven't given me alternative book choices. Remember also I am looking for books that would be used by someone like me to understand and reach out to a loved-one who is a cultist.

The courts (especially American ones) stay out of religious affairs and membership. You will find custody battles where a JW and non JW parent will argue on the raising of the child (in and outside the religion) and where some activities may result in harm, the courts will rule.

Enzo: "There is no one size fits all method of mind control"

I am sure. But there are time-tested methods of coersion that works on many people, especially if they are already invested in the cult or if a child is born in to the cult. Zimbardo and others have found that people will go against their best instincts to conform.

I take from your arrivederci that you have had your fun and you have tired of our little discussion board. Good-bye.

I'll stick around to support exiting Witnesses, those in love with Witnesses. To make the transition that much easier.

2596

The Pastor of my Old Church Tried to Re-Convert Me Yesterday

by cofty in

yesterday evening my wife and i were invited to friends house for new year's eve.

we met them when i was a christian and we have kept in touch.

they had a few other friends there as well, including the new church pastor and his wife.

jgnat

Maybe God didn't do it, and perhaps it's unfair to attribute such inattention as the death of thousands, to Him.

Maybe there's no God to attribute any of this to, which would be the simplest answer.

I'm going to parse this : "issues with the fact that you simply do NOT agree with my answers".

This is a discussion board after all. Taking different sides to an issue is how new ideas, new thoughts are generated. It is true that I am challenging your answers. But your answers are not factual or complete. There are holes. Those holes need to be talked about.

2596

The Pastor of my Old Church Tried to Re-Convert Me Yesterday

by cofty in

yesterday evening my wife and i were invited to friends house for new year's eve.

we met them when i was a christian and we have kept in touch.

they had a few other friends there as well, including the new church pastor and his wife.

jgnat

So if people choose to become less compassionate after a tragedy, it's their fault? It seems that the power of disaster to create greater compassion in the world is fraught with flaws.

Perhaps a kinder approach, like reading sympathetic novels, may increase compassion in the world without the commensurate suffering. There's good evidence that the widespread adoption of reading has done just that.

So if reading rather than suffering demonstrably results in a kinder populace, why would God continue to allow suffering to countless human beings?

144

Have you ever read the review of Steven Hassan's books on Cult news.com?

by Enzo in

hi, to everyone my username is enzo, .

recently a saw a video presented by john cedar presenting steve hassan as a cult expert.. .

but read this reviews presented on cult news about steve hassan's books, and it's up to you make your own opinion about the video.

jgnat

So Enzo has no practical alternative to Hassan's materials to offer. Hassan's work is perhaps not as scholarly, but very helpful in my case in understanding my cult member and helping him break free.

Enzo: A question,: In America there are between 2 millions-5 millions people involved in approximatelt between 2000-5000 Religious cults. Are all these people subject to mind control? are they all influenced against their will?

Are all the religious cults you mention "high control groups"? Because that is really what I am concerned about here. America also has high control groups that are not religious in nature at all. For instance, there's Amway. Others have mentioned totalitarian regimes that temporarily held entire nations in their thrall. My rough estimate is that one in a thousand people is vulnerable to the WTS's message to the point of baptism. Then there's the children of cult members. They are involuntary members, also put under pressure to conform. Sure, a child of a Witness is free to leave the organization at any time...as long as they are willing to forego any relationship with their family. Is this free will, or is this coersion?

47

i was happy before i woke up

by losingit in

jw
friends

idk if waking up has been good for me.

i still have almost no friends.

im still waiting to graduate this december to qualify n b certified for my job.

jgnat

The stress and disruption is temporary. Imagine taking on a gruelling fitness program that you joined for your health. At the beginning, the program will be painful. You will wonder if it is all worth it. Why do you stick with it? Because it will get easier, and the rewards will far outstrip the temporary pain. You will have greater stamina, you can do more things, and you will have vital and energetic senior years.

Similarly, exiting the Witnesses means you have more free time, you can explore new ideas and modes of living free from censure, you will read wider, and you will be a wiser, more flexible human being. With a decent pension.

You will graduate soon. You will make new friends. And your ex will get easier to deal with or else the courts will make it so.

Divorce can feel like a failure, even if it was the right thing to do. The same with exiting a religion that you invested a good deal of your life in to. But it's not a failure, it's a step towards life.

It will get better.

48

How much of our mind is our own?

by jgnat in

margaret singer, pioneer in the study of cults, chaired the alberta psychological association (apa) task force on deceptive and indirect methods of persuasion and control (dimpac) from 1983-1987. the final report of this task force was rejected by the apa, and has not been published.

the apa noted that the brief characterized the theory of brainwashing as not scientifically proven and lacking scientific and methodological rigor.. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/apa_task_force_on_deceptive_and_indirect_methods_of_persuasion_and_control#reported_conclusions_of_the_dimpac_task_force.

the apa has since dismissed the use of the word "cult" and switched to the term "new religious movements".

jgnat

I had an erudite reply all composed...and lost it.

Apognophos, I believe computers could achieve free will with a little more complexity, sensory input, and mobility.

Pinku, obviously people stay for various reasons. Interesting that all but one member of your family managed to exit, for reasons of their own. I imagine the first outliers took the greater risk (fear of shunning by family members). But your remaining family member still in, has motives of his own. I suspect cognitive dissonance. He's invested too much to give up now. Very similar to the gambling addict's descent in to greater risk and indebtedness.

Which leads me to ponder; how much free will is there in the Venus Fly Trap called Vegas? A certain percentage of the population is vulnerable, and casinos certainly have perfected ways to clean them out.

48

How much of our mind is our own?

by jgnat in

margaret singer, pioneer in the study of cults, chaired the alberta psychological association (apa) task force on deceptive and indirect methods of persuasion and control (dimpac) from 1983-1987. the final report of this task force was rejected by the apa, and has not been published.

the apa noted that the brief characterized the theory of brainwashing as not scientifically proven and lacking scientific and methodological rigor.. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/apa_task_force_on_deceptive_and_indirect_methods_of_persuasion_and_control#reported_conclusions_of_the_dimpac_task_force.

the apa has since dismissed the use of the word "cult" and switched to the term "new religious movements".

jgnat

Oubliette, I agree that the concern really is with high control groups, not new fringe religions/movements, many of which are harmless.

I would be most interested in your paper.

144

Have you ever read the review of Steven Hassan's books on Cult news.com?

by Enzo in

hi, to everyone my username is enzo, .

recently a saw a video presented by john cedar presenting steve hassan as a cult expert.. .

but read this reviews presented on cult news about steve hassan's books, and it's up to you make your own opinion about the video.

jgnat

Janja Lalich, PhD, is a promising candidate. She is the author of the book, "Bounded Choice..." in 2004. An extract from one of her case studies,

"...charismatic authority, the transcendent belief system, the
system of control, and the system of influence. The result of this interactive
dynamic is a “self-sealing system,” that is, a social system that is closed to
disconfirming evidence and structured in such a way that everything reinforces
the system."

Charismatic Authority - The WTS would claim they don't have a "charismatic leader" like other cults, but I would argue that the Governing Body is revered and respected without question in the same way.

Transcendent Belief System - it offers a total explanation of past, present, and future, including a path to salvation. Well, yes, the WTS offers that. Exiting believers are often lost afterwards, lamenting "where else" will they get the Truth (TM)?

Systems of Control - includes the overt rules, regulations, and procedures that guide and control members’ behavior. God, there's enough of those!

Systems of Influence - the network of interactions and social influence residing in the group’s social relations. I've watched a study graduate from t-shirt, to dress shirt, to shirt and tie within a few months. He is treated kindly throughout, but there is no question from the congregation's point of view that he will eventually conform.

http://cultresearch.org/pdf/bc_in_csr.pdf

All very good to understanding the inner workings of high control groups. But how does an outsider provide any sort of alternative? How can they help their loved-ones wake up from the dream/nightmare, consider a simpler mode of living outside the influence of the group?

144